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> Some apps, like Facebook, allow for some data tracking to be manually disabled. But by default, it is turned on. That gives the company reams of personal data

> Some apps, like Facebook, allow for some data tracking to be manually disabled. But by default, it is turned on. That gives the company reams of personal data on who we are and what we are doing, which it then vacuums up, packages and sells. My understanding is that Facebook does not sell this data, but rather lets advertisers create hyper-targeted ads, which are only possible because of this data. Edit: Certainly not trying to defend Facebook here (in the slightest). Just trying to correct an inaccuracy in the article.

elefanten 6y ago
Maybe it doesn't sell it directly, but it certainly sells it in the sense that it turns it into a product that people can pay for.
skeeter2020 6y ago
I would attribute this to the "packaging" the article references. As you correctly point out advertisers don't want "the data" they want the hyper-targeted ads that it allows. That's the FB value-add.
- albntomat0 6y ago
  I agree, with the addition that Facebook wants to keep control of their user data and repeatedly sell it via ads, rather than directly sell it to some third party org to repackage.
albntomat0 6y ago
I agree that the original wording could be better. I'd phrase it more along the lines of Facebook indirectly selling the data as hypertargeted ads, while keeping control of the data themselves.
whoisburbansky 6y ago
It's a nice bit of semantic ju-jitsu to say "they take this data and sell a service that wouldn't be possible without it" isn't the same as "selling this data," isn't it? Especially given that the targeting mechanisms don't have any k-anonymity guarantees, and I'm aware of at least one paper showing information leaks through the ad portal [1] https://www.ftc.gov/system/files/documents/public_events/1223263/p155407privacyconmislove_1.pdf https://www.ftc.gov/system/files/documents/public_events/122...
- zepto 6y ago
  They really don’t sell it. You certainly say they exploit it on behalf of their customers, but we need to maintain the distinction between this, and the companies that actually do sell the data they collect, because once sold, you can never trace who is using the data, whereas with Facebook and Google’s model, you can. It’s also worth pointing out that it’s not in Facebook’s interest to sell the data. If they did, they would lose their advantage quite quickly.
  - afiori 6y ago
    i agree that there is a difference but the Cambridge Analytica scandal told a different story regarding how much your data is safe within Facebook
    - zepto 6y ago
      Very true. Facebook has definitely undermined trust on what data it shares. However that is not it’s normal model.
      - afiori 6y ago
        This makes it worse in my opinion. For example Telegram has a very specific approach to security based on "you can trust us", by default chats are not end-to-end encrypted, they use non-standard encryption and the app is free, but they are upfront on why such tradeoffs are made and their point of view in making them. Facebook could have a position of "personalized advertising is the future" and allow ipertargeted marketing by means of gathering every scrap of data they could find. But they could draw the line to keeping it within their own databases and never distributing any of it. Apparently their main line of bussiness is exactly like that, but they do not do only that, they also partake in sharing that data.
- ChrisKnott 6y ago
  Seems to me like you're more playing "semantic ju-jitsu" than OP. Facebook collect data to sell targetted adspace, they do not sell data. This is a plain fact.
ttt0 6y ago
> My understanding is that Facebook does not sell this data Even if they don't, Facebook is not the only app in the world. Tracking being disabled by default is a good thing, no matter what Facebook does with it.
tgv 6y ago
Didn't they have a deal with Cambridge Analytica, rebranded as Palantir?
- ajliu 6y ago
  No?
Spooky23 6y ago
"We never sell your data" is a meaningless statement. It's the online service equivalent of saying that a bottle of water is "fat free". It is consistently and prominently written because it is a definitive statement. Facebook used to feature it on the signup screen with some other statements that sound principled like "We don't charge for Facebook, and we never will", etc. But when you parse out what it means you are left with something more accurately stated as: "<Company> will not sell its proprietary assets." It sort of like the operator of a hotel saying "I don't sell rooms".
KineticLensman 6y ago
The often-quoted statement 'if you aren't paying, you are the product' is closer to the truth but is actually misleading. As per the book on Surveillance Capitalism, our interactions with Facebook (or Google) are the raw material from which they create their products, which are sold to advertisers, namely the ability to target ads at specific groups of people.
beervirus 6y ago
I don't care if they sell it. I don't want their business partners to have my data, but I'm not any more ok with Facebook having it in the first place.
ForHackernews 6y ago
No, no, we're not selling murdered puppies! How could you think that! We only sell the finest artisanal sausages rendered from gently-euthanised young canines.
fumar 6y ago
It is not that simple. Facebook can also customer data from a variety of sources and parties. In addition, it will share measurement data to outside parties. Even if the data shared outside its walls is translated to a new ID, you still end up with an open loop where a user ID is used for targeting, measured, and potentially shared. That user ID is based on their iOS device ID and we know those are unique.
reaperducer 6y ago
My understanding is that Facebook does not sell this data Selling the actual data and selling access to use the data is a meaningless distinction. Money changes hands. The data is used. Perhaps we should say "renting" the data. Just the way a hotel rents you a room, but you use it on the hotel's premises.
- dwaite 6y ago
  Data does not change hands. Facebook is selling services that internally operate because of processing on that data. Even then they do not sell the processed data or access to read the processed data.

elefanten 6y ago

Maybe it doesn't sell it directly, but it certainly sells it in the sense that it turns it into a product that people can pay for.

skeeter2020 6y ago

I would attribute this to the "packaging" the article references. As you correctly point out advertisers don't want "the data" they want the hyper-targeted ads that it allows. That's the FB value-add.

albntomat0 6y ago
I agree, with the addition that Facebook wants to keep control of their user data and repeatedly sell it via ads, rather than directly sell it to some third party org to repackage.

albntomat0 6y ago

I agree that the original wording could be better. I'd phrase it more along the lines of Facebook indirectly selling the data as hypertargeted ads, while keeping control of the data themselves.

whoisburbansky 6y ago

It's a nice bit of semantic ju-jitsu to say "they take this data and sell a service that wouldn't be possible without it" isn't the same as "selling this data," isn't it? Especially given that the targeting mechanisms don't have any k-anonymity guarantees, and I'm aware of at least one paper showing information leaks through the ad portal [1] https://www.ftc.gov/system/files/documents/public_events/1223263/p155407privacyconmislove_1.pdf https://www.ftc.gov/system/files/documents/public_events/122...

zepto 6y ago
They really don’t sell it. You certainly say they exploit it on behalf of their customers, but we need to maintain the distinction between this, and the companies that actually do sell the data they collect, because once sold, you can never trace who is using the data, whereas with Facebook and Google’s model, you can. It’s also worth pointing out that it’s not in Facebook’s interest to sell the data. If they did, they would lose their advantage quite quickly.
- afiori 6y ago
  i agree that there is a difference but the Cambridge Analytica scandal told a different story regarding how much your data is safe within Facebook
  - zepto 6y ago
    Very true. Facebook has definitely undermined trust on what data it shares. However that is not it’s normal model.
    - afiori 6y ago
      This makes it worse in my opinion. For example Telegram has a very specific approach to security based on "you can trust us", by default chats are not end-to-end encrypted, they use non-standard encryption and the app is free, but they are upfront on why such tradeoffs are made and their point of view in making them. Facebook could have a position of "personalized advertising is the future" and allow ipertargeted marketing by means of gathering every scrap of data they could find. But they could draw the line to keeping it within their own databases and never distributing any of it. Apparently their main line of bussiness is exactly like that, but they do not do only that, they also partake in sharing that data.
ChrisKnott 6y ago
Seems to me like you're more playing "semantic ju-jitsu" than OP. Facebook collect data to sell targetted adspace, they do not sell data. This is a plain fact.

ttt0 6y ago

> My understanding is that Facebook does not sell this data Even if they don't, Facebook is not the only app in the world. Tracking being disabled by default is a good thing, no matter what Facebook does with it.

tgv 6y ago

Didn't they have a deal with Cambridge Analytica, rebranded as Palantir?

ajliu 6y ago
No?

Spooky23 6y ago

"We never sell your data" is a meaningless statement. It's the online service equivalent of saying that a bottle of water is "fat free". It is consistently and prominently written because it is a definitive statement. Facebook used to feature it on the signup screen with some other statements that sound principled like "We don't charge for Facebook, and we never will", etc. But when you parse out what it means you are left with something more accurately stated as: "<Company> will not sell its proprietary assets." It sort of like the operator of a hotel saying "I don't sell rooms".

KineticLensman 6y ago

The often-quoted statement 'if you aren't paying, you are the product' is closer to the truth but is actually misleading. As per the book on Surveillance Capitalism, our interactions with Facebook (or Google) are the raw material from which they create their products, which are sold to advertisers, namely the ability to target ads at specific groups of people.

beervirus 6y ago

I don't care if they sell it. I don't want their business partners to have my data, but I'm not any more ok with Facebook having it in the first place.

ForHackernews 6y ago

No, no, we're not selling murdered puppies! How could you think that! We only sell the finest artisanal sausages rendered from gently-euthanised young canines.

fumar 6y ago

It is not that simple. Facebook can also customer data from a variety of sources and parties. In addition, it will share measurement data to outside parties. Even if the data shared outside its walls is translated to a new ID, you still end up with an open loop where a user ID is used for targeting, measured, and potentially shared. That user ID is based on their iOS device ID and we know those are unique.

reaperducer 6y ago

My understanding is that Facebook does not sell this data Selling the actual data and selling access to use the data is a meaningless distinction. Money changes hands. The data is used. Perhaps we should say "renting" the data. Just the way a hotel rents you a room, but you use it on the hotel's premises.

dwaite 6y ago
Data does not change hands. Facebook is selling services that internally operate because of processing on that data. Even then they do not sell the processed data or access to read the processed data.