4 ms·

> pay at least for very basic existence. Can we put these in specific and measurable criteria? What you've written is a great sound bite and easy to get behind

> pay at least for very basic existence. Can we put these in specific and measurable criteria? What you've written is a great sound bite and easy to get behind as written, but it's meaningless unless we all agree on what constitutes a "very basic existence". I doubt you'd find consensus on what qualifies as a "very basic existence".

chii 6y ago
> I doubt you'd find consensus on what qualifies as a "very basic existence". there doesn't need to be concensus from unrelated parties to the transaction. If the deliverers accept the conditions (assuming they understand and isn't lied to about it), then that's the level.
- malandrew 6y ago
  deliverers aren't a homogenous group. What's the threshold for acceptance by members of this group to determine the level has been met? 51%? 70%? 90%? Something else. That said, I think you do need consensus beyond those that are party to a transaction because you're arguing that the rest of society needs to be involved via the legislative process (politicians, voters, etc.). If enforcement society, society needs to be involved in the consensus. If society isn't involved in enforcement via any laws, yeah, only those involved need to be involved.
lmilcin 6y ago
> Can we put these in specific and measurable criteria? Yes. A single young person on a minimum wage needs to be able to at least rent their own flat, put food on a plate and be able to party. I think we can consider case of Sweden. Norway isn't good case because they struck gold with oil and gas which puts them in privileged situation. Sweden has no special resources that would put them in privileged position. In Sweden where I lived on a 6 months contract, minimum wage is around 180SEK or 21USD. Sweden has costs of living very comparable to those of US. What this means, is that even if you are young person without special needs, without support from parents, working basic job like support phone you still can rather comfortably pay for your necessities.
- piva00 6y ago
  Just to be clear: there is no mandated minimum salary by Swedish labour laws, so the government does not set a minimum wage. The minimum salaries are set by the unions in negotiation with the government and employers' organisations. In summary: minimum wage only exist in Sweden in connection to national unions, not directly to the government.
- malandrew 6y ago
  > a minimum wage needs to be able to at least rent their own flat Why exclude the possibility of having roommates? I and I'm sure many others here had at one point or another a minimum wage and roommates and perfectly acceptable livable existence. The idea that you need to have your own place all to yourself on a livable wage is laughable and so out of touch of how much of most people in the world have lived at one point in their life. Not even a majority of Americans in any age cohort live alone. 60 years ago it wasn't even 1 in 5. https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/percentage-of-americans-living-alone-by-age https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/percentage-of-americans-l... > In 63 of the 113 nations (56 percent), fewer than 5 percent of the young adults, ages 25-29, live alone. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/living-single/202002/living-alone-men-and-women-young-old-around-the-world https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/living-single/202002... Living alone is a luxury. Any attempts to paint living alone as a necessity for a livable condition when most of the world experiences a livable condition without it is so out of touch with reality that it's impossible to take someone making this argument seriously.

chii 6y ago

> I doubt you'd find consensus on what qualifies as a "very basic existence". there doesn't need to be concensus from unrelated parties to the transaction. If the deliverers accept the conditions (assuming they understand and isn't lied to about it), then that's the level.

malandrew 6y ago
deliverers aren't a homogenous group. What's the threshold for acceptance by members of this group to determine the level has been met? 51%? 70%? 90%? Something else. That said, I think you do need consensus beyond those that are party to a transaction because you're arguing that the rest of society needs to be involved via the legislative process (politicians, voters, etc.). If enforcement society, society needs to be involved in the consensus. If society isn't involved in enforcement via any laws, yeah, only those involved need to be involved.

lmilcin 6y ago

> Can we put these in specific and measurable criteria? Yes. A single young person on a minimum wage needs to be able to at least rent their own flat, put food on a plate and be able to party. I think we can consider case of Sweden. Norway isn't good case because they struck gold with oil and gas which puts them in privileged situation. Sweden has no special resources that would put them in privileged position. In Sweden where I lived on a 6 months contract, minimum wage is around 180SEK or 21USD. Sweden has costs of living very comparable to those of US. What this means, is that even if you are young person without special needs, without support from parents, working basic job like support phone you still can rather comfortably pay for your necessities.

piva00 6y ago
Just to be clear: there is no mandated minimum salary by Swedish labour laws, so the government does not set a minimum wage. The minimum salaries are set by the unions in negotiation with the government and employers' organisations. In summary: minimum wage only exist in Sweden in connection to national unions, not directly to the government.
malandrew 6y ago
> a minimum wage needs to be able to at least rent their own flat Why exclude the possibility of having roommates? I and I'm sure many others here had at one point or another a minimum wage and roommates and perfectly acceptable livable existence. The idea that you need to have your own place all to yourself on a livable wage is laughable and so out of touch of how much of most people in the world have lived at one point in their life. Not even a majority of Americans in any age cohort live alone. 60 years ago it wasn't even 1 in 5. https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/percentage-of-americans-living-alone-by-age https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/percentage-of-americans-l... > In 63 of the 113 nations (56 percent), fewer than 5 percent of the young adults, ages 25-29, live alone. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/living-single/202002/living-alone-men-and-women-young-old-around-the-world https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/living-single/202002... Living alone is a luxury. Any attempts to paint living alone as a necessity for a livable condition when most of the world experiences a livable condition without it is so out of touch with reality that it's impossible to take someone making this argument seriously.