8 ms·
You mean, like manufacturing electronics? It takes about 1MWh to manufacture a laptop, the same energy needed to drive a Tesla for 3000 miles. https://www.netw
by ppf 6y ago
You mean, like manufacturing electronics? It takes about 1MWh to manufacture a laptop, the same energy needed to drive a Tesla for 3000 miles.
https://www.networkworld.com/article/2229029/computer-factories-eat-way-more-energy-than-running-the-devices-they-build.html https://www.networkworld.com/article/2229029/computer-factor...
- dewlinedew2 6y agoalso lots of purified water
- thewarrior 6y agoIt’s all interconnected and inter causal in a gigantic mess.
- kryogen1c 6y ago> the same energy needed to drive a Tesla who are the memeticists driving this analagy into our collective consciousness? why is this popularizing? ive been seeing this crop up more and more frequently. it feels a bit like begging the question, except the arguer also holds TSLA
- ppf 6y agoIt's just a handy reference for energy usage, and I assume this figure is more readily available due to the car being battery powered. It's a bit harder to work out for an ICE-powered car, as you'd have to calculate the energy required to move the car based on aerodynamics and weight. I have no interest in TSLA stock, nor do I think Tesla is anything like the sustainable future of transportation. I mostly picked Telsa because it's Hacker News. As you insist though, it's about the energy required to cycle 100,000 miles.
- simias 6y agoYou can do exactly the same back-of-the-envelope calculation for ICE engines as you did for the Tesla, you just need to know the average fuel consumption per mile and the energy density of gasoline. No need to worry about areodynamics.
- ppf 6y agoI was using that number to represent just the energy required to motivate the car, and assuming that an EV has near-perfect energy translation from battery to movement (and therefore providing an accurate enough representation of that energy). It gets a little complicated if you want to consider the fuel input, as you start getting into wells-to-wheels calculations. Depending on your power grid energy mix, it also makes things quite a bit worse for EVs.
- CyberRage 6y agoActually you already have something like this. MPGe is used across EV and ICE vehicles alike. Fuel is far more energy dense for ICE engines are far far less efficient. I don't get this comparison point as well, electronics is dwarfed compared to other far more energy intensive industries.
- ppf 6y agoYou can, but that wasn't the point I was making. My only point was that it takes around 300Wh/mile to move a car about the size and shape of a Tesla, regardless of how you power it. I won't use the example of Tesla next time, as it seems to confuse matters. MPGe also touches on the source of the energy you are using to propel your car, and depending on your power grid energy mix, can produce quite widely different results for EVs. Once you also take into account transmission and conversion losses, it is not as good as you'd think. Electronics is one of the most energy intensive industries in the world, especially if you do the calulcation per weight of final product.
- bfrog 6y agoSo probably 10MWh to build a Tesla, before even driving it?
- ppf 6y agoNearer 25MWh, and that's just for the battery pack. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0007850617301099 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S00078...
- ppf 6y agoAlso, just for fun, the embodied energy of a 1960's Fiat 500 (assuming its entire 500kg weight is made of steel, which is probably a good enough approximation) is 3MWh, or three laptops. So what is more sustainable?
- imtringued 6y agoAn electric bike?
- ppf 6y agoYou're not wrong. However, every time I think about that, I just tell myself to pedal harder ;)
- xxs 6y agojust for reference 1kg of aluminum raw material,not alloy, not processed, not packed, not transported - just mined is over 40KWh. In that regard even the raw materials for the car are orders of magnitude over.
- ppf 6y agoIndeed. The embodied energy of the items we use every day is so under-appreciated, probably because we have outsourced the production of almost all of them to countries that have no problem burning oil and coal in the process. Really, if we actually wanted to make motoring sustainable, we would all be driving a 60's era Fiat 500 or Honda C50 moped. They cost very little to make, in every way, are very fuel effecient (even with their very old engine designs), and discourage long journeys. That won't work though, because there's too much money to be made from EVs.
- vkou 6y agoSince we're trying to use human-understandable units for measuring energy inputs, It's also the same amount of energy that is necessary to boil 600 pots of soup.
- jschwartzi 6y agoThat's almost as much soup as I eat in a year.
- ppf 6y agoNot much use unless you specify the size of the pot ;) By my calculation, 1MWh is enough to boil 600 17-liter pots, which isn't very human-relatable.
- vkou 6y agoWe're talking about the full energy budget of common household objects, like laptops, so you need to take into account the inefficiency of your gas stove, as well as the full energy cost of extracting and transporting the natural gas to your apartment.
- ppf 6y agoWell then, let's see your working. Gas is really quite efficient in all ways.
- NonEUCitizen 6y agoYou can avoid a lot of flying and driving by using zoom on that laptop.
- qazxcvbnmlp 6y agoYeah but flying is more fun. - Sent from the Seattle Airport
- ppf 6y agoNow take a look at all your other laptop-like gadgets (the infotainment in your car, your smartphone(s), TV(s), PC, gaming rig, etc etc), and tell me how much flying and driving they prevent.
- cma 6y agoDid you account for how much energy to create the Tesla as well?
- ppf 6y agoNo, I was just using it as a easily-understood reference of comparative energy usage. Really, it's about the same value for any other car with the same aerodynamics and weight as the Tesla. As you point out, it gets a lot more complicated when you start adding up how much energy it takes to make a Tesla (or any other EV). Really, if we actually wanted to make motoring sustainable, we would all be driving 60's era Fiat 500s or Honda C50 mopeds. They cost very little to make, in every way, are very fuel effecient (even with their very old engine designs), and discourage long journeys. That won't work though, because there's too much money to be made from EVs.
- cyberpsybin 6y agoWhat about energy expended manufacturing the Tesla?
- ppf 6y agoI really regret using the example of a Tesla, as it conflates too many issues. I meant that it takes around 300Wh to move a car about the weight and shape of a Tesla, one mile. It is a very interesting calculation to look at the energy cost of manufacturing any EV, and how long it takes to "pay it back" compared to an ICE-powered car, and under various sources of power for the electrical grid used to charge it. However, that was supposed to be beyond the scope of this conversation.
- imtringued 6y agoI drive more than 3000 miles per year and I've got this laptop for 4 years now.