6 ms·

Also reference Amazon's "Do it without dues" site: https://www.doitwithoutdues.com/ https://www.doitwithoutdues.com/

fxtentacle 6y ago
Wow, just wow. "Don’t buy that dinner, don’t buy those school supplies, don’t buy those gifts because you won’t have that almost $500 you paid in dues." It seems Amazon's main argument for why people shouldn't join a union is that Amazon's wages are so low that they cannot financially afford to. That's almost like saying "You're too poor to fight for your rights. Know your place."
- _jal 6y ago
  > "You're too poor to fight for your rights. Know your place." Well, yes. The goal of an antiunion campaign is the demoralization/ disempowerment of the workforce. Notice also the recent push for "experimental polities", AKA company towns.
  - CodeMage 6y ago
    St. Peter don't you call me 'cause I can't go, I owe my soul to the company store.
  - nexthash 6y ago
    For context about "experimental polities" like the failed Toronto SideWalk labs [1], I've linked an article below [2]. [1] https://techcrunch.com/2020/05/07/sidewalk-labs-shuts-down-toronto-project/ https://techcrunch.com/2020/05/07/sidewalk-labs-shuts-down-t... [2] https://theconversation.com/will-silicon-valleys-new-company-towns-end-up-as-failed-utopias-94270 https://theconversation.com/will-silicon-valleys-new-company...
- andrepd 6y ago
  "But higher wages can buy many dinners." "Explain how!" "Money can be exchanged for goods and services"
  - azinman2 6y ago
    Simpsons FTW
    - gremlinsinc 6y ago
      Historians will be comparing the Simpson's to the Delphi Oracle in Ancient Greece, except one was pretty damn accurate.
  - CobrastanJorji 6y ago
    But see, when your union negotiates, the result is uncertain. It might end up with you getting more money, with you getting the same amount of money, or with your union rep murdering a baby and then framing you for the crime. Do you really want to take that chance?
    - aktschually 6y ago
      Or it might end up with you losing your job to a robot.
      - sodality2 6y ago
        Amazon will do that anyway if it's cheaper. It probably is cheaper, union or not.
      - Bakary 6y ago
        People will lose their jobs en masse regardless of unions. The concentration of wealth and capture of surplus that we will see in the coming decades will probably make feudalism look like child's play
        ozborn 6y ago
        It's not a foregone conclusion. While I'm sure some in the gilded age or in the 1920s thought that, it didn't last forever.
        6y ago
- cbozeman 6y ago
  "The strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must." - History of the Peloponnesian War, Thucydides
- kergonath 6y ago
  This is exactly saying that. It’s like we’re back to the 19th century.
- vgeek 6y ago
  This rhetoric is bad, but even worse is how the $500 is portrayed. At first glance, I interpreted it to be $500 over a much shorter duration, like on a monthly basis, versus ~$10/week, which even at $15/hr seems manageable enough if it means higher wages, better treatment and/or benefits. That Amazon is fighting this so hard should signal that there is something meaningful to be gained by the workers. Hopefully they recognize this and succeed in organizing. The biggest question I would have is does Amazon pull a Walmart and just shutter the FC if they succeed?
- gremlinsinc 6y ago
  Jeff Bezos is now seriously contemplating changing this to their company slogan: "You're too poor to fight for your rights. Know your place."
sodality2 6y ago
I love this: "Make your voice heard! VOTE NOW AND VOTE NO." Those posters are all over the warehouses and it really feels like some 1984-esque parody.
- rkagerer 6y ago
  I don't work there and I'm not a fan of unions but this makes me want to vote YES.
  - tor11 6y ago
    voting is and has always been for sheep tho. no?
- tablespoon 6y ago
  > I love this: "Make your voice heard! VOTE NOW AND VOTE NO." Those posters are all over the warehouses and it really feels like some 1984-esque parody. Make your voice heard! Tell Big Brother you love him!
valbaca 6y ago
HEY BHM1 DOERS, why pay almost $500 in dues? We’ve got you covered* with high wages, health care, vision, and dental benefits, as well as a safety committee and an appeals process. There’s so much MORE you can do for your career and your family without paying dues. *Applies to regular full-time employees. IF YOU’RE PAYING DUES… it will be RESTRICTIVE meaning it won’t be easy to be as helpful and social with each other. So be a DOER, stay friendly and get things done versus paying dues. (sic) --- Couldn't even include a stock-statement like "we got you covered" without a disclaimer. "won’t be easy to be as helpful and social with each other" What the hell does that even mean? In a union you can't talk? As though you could be totally chatty before?
- sodality2 6y ago
  Which is hilarious, because talking during a shift is frowned upon even if it doesn't impact productivity. And if it does? Expect a call within the day
- aidenn0 6y ago
  It means if you join a union you can't work unpaid and off the clock to be "helpful and social" with your coworkers.
  - cardiffspaceman 6y ago
    It also refers to work rules that are designed to make sure that workers doing a task are the ones who have been trained for it. Sometimes the rules seem to get in the way: Do you have to call in an electrician to plug in a PC? Or can the guy in the next cube, who saw Norm use a plug strip on PBS, plug it in? The movie version of "A brief history of time" has Dr. Hawking telling an anecdote about nailed down chairs on a set. It isn't always about neighborly overtime.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
dheera 6y ago
Maybe someone should start a second union without dues? That would leave Amazon with no way to argue.
- sokoloff 6y ago
  But what would be in it for union leadership under such a structure? (Not to mention that unions also have some unavoidable expenses, even if you didn't have a bunch of highly-paid union leader mouths to feed.) Amazon would still find a way to argue. "If you're not a lowest performer, don't let a union negotiate for you and force your wages down to the lowest performing among you." or many other phrases that would appeal to those who think they're above the bottom already and plant fear that bargaining with the collective would lower their outcomes.
  - dheera 6y ago
    > But what would be in it for union leadership under such a structure? An ego boost? I mean this seriously -- people love being moderators of Subreddits and admins of online communities largely deep down for the ego boost. A union really needs not much more than a Discord server and maybe a Zoom membership to organize strikes and whatever else they need to do.
    - flyt 6y ago
      Unions need more than a Discord to organize. They may need to compensate union leadership for time taken to organize away from their work duties, pay for events, pay for mailers and other communications infrastructure, and of course pay for professionals like labor lawyers. No union will have much luck performing collective bargaining against Amazon without working alongside experienced lawyers. These costs don't have to be huge, but they aren't zero.
      - dheera 6y ago
        > pay for events What events? If it's to discuss a certain issue, that can be virtual and almost free. If it's a social event, meh, there are enough of those already and people can self-organize them. Hell for $500/month I could organize social events where everyone goes to Michelin 3-star restaurants every month and rants over gourmet dinners about their bosses. > pay for mailers and other communications infrastructure Use e-mail. I don't even check my snail mail box anyway unless someone tells me to expect something by e-mail, and even then when my snail mail box gets too full I usually just dump it all in the recycle bin, so it's not an effective way for a union to communicate with me. > and of course pay for professionals like labor lawyers. What if they just split the lawyer fees evenly? Assuming an experienced lawyer charges $1000/hr and spends 100 hours on a case, and there are 1 million people in the union, that amounts to about $0.10/person/case, a far cry from the $500/month they seem to be charging. Even if my numbers are off by a factor of 100 it would be only $10/person/case, and if the union won the case Amazon would probably have to pay the legal fees anyway. Although this may sound a bit naive I feel like $500/person/month sounds like there is some massive inefficiency in use of resources.
sammorrowdrums 6y ago
I kind of want a parody site, like "doitwithoutshoes.com", my first thought had been "doitwithoutjews.com" given it sounds the same, but obviously it would have to be very tastefully done to not come across as cheap or anti-Semitic. The shoes idea works as you have to pay for them. Why pay for shoes? You know you get exactly the same benefits at Amazon while barefoot? A classic similar example used to be the "godhatesfigs.com" parody of the Westboro Baptist church's similar slogan (sadly gone now) - with a bible passage where Jesus curses a fig tree.
willcipriano 6y ago
Interestingly it looks like it was made with squarespace, I'd assume they would have people in house for something like this.
- jrochkind1 6y ago
  It was probably made by an anti-union consulting firm they've hired. They don't do union-busting in house, they hire the experts.
  - rland 6y ago
    Pinkerton entering the graphic design biz.
    - throwanem 6y ago
      In 1874, apparently, with the invention of the wanted poster: https://historyengine.richmond.edu/episodes/view/6296 https://historyengine.richmond.edu/episodes/view/6296
  - sangnoir 6y ago
    The Pinkertons have been fighting workers for more than a century, I'm sure Amazon is disappointed Pinkertons can no longer gun down troublesome workers without consequences.
- iainmerrick 6y ago
  Google always uses agencies for one-off marketing and lobbying sites like this. I guess Amazon does the same.
oliv__ 6y ago
That website feels like it should be in a museum
wellthisisgreat 6y ago
“Be a Doer” I can’t help but think if this https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VJqr6LBFelI https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VJqr6LBFelI Can’t imagine this word could be used unironically

Wow, just wow. "Don’t buy that dinner, don’t buy those school supplies, don’t buy those gifts because you won’t have that almost $500 you paid in dues." It seems Amazon's main argument for why people shouldn't join a union is that Amazon's wages are so low that they cannot financially afford to. That's almost like saying "You're too poor to fight for your rights. Know your place."

_jal 6y ago
> "You're too poor to fight for your rights. Know your place." Well, yes. The goal of an antiunion campaign is the demoralization/ disempowerment of the workforce. Notice also the recent push for "experimental polities", AKA company towns.
- CodeMage 6y ago
  St. Peter don't you call me 'cause I can't go, I owe my soul to the company store.
- nexthash 6y ago
  For context about "experimental polities" like the failed Toronto SideWalk labs [1], I've linked an article below [2]. [1] https://techcrunch.com/2020/05/07/sidewalk-labs-shuts-down-toronto-project/ https://techcrunch.com/2020/05/07/sidewalk-labs-shuts-down-t... [2] https://theconversation.com/will-silicon-valleys-new-company-towns-end-up-as-failed-utopias-94270 https://theconversation.com/will-silicon-valleys-new-company...
andrepd 6y ago
"But higher wages can buy many dinners." "Explain how!" "Money can be exchanged for goods and services"
- azinman2 6y ago
  Simpsons FTW
  - gremlinsinc 6y ago
    Historians will be comparing the Simpson's to the Delphi Oracle in Ancient Greece, except one was pretty damn accurate.
- CobrastanJorji 6y ago
  But see, when your union negotiates, the result is uncertain. It might end up with you getting more money, with you getting the same amount of money, or with your union rep murdering a baby and then framing you for the crime. Do you really want to take that chance?
  - aktschually 6y ago
    Or it might end up with you losing your job to a robot.
    - sodality2 6y ago
      Amazon will do that anyway if it's cheaper. It probably is cheaper, union or not.
    - Bakary 6y ago
      People will lose their jobs en masse regardless of unions. The concentration of wealth and capture of surplus that we will see in the coming decades will probably make feudalism look like child's play
      - ozborn 6y ago
        It's not a foregone conclusion. While I'm sure some in the gilded age or in the 1920s thought that, it didn't last forever.
      - 6y ago
cbozeman 6y ago
"The strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must." - History of the Peloponnesian War, Thucydides
kergonath 6y ago
This is exactly saying that. It’s like we’re back to the 19th century.
vgeek 6y ago
This rhetoric is bad, but even worse is how the $500 is portrayed. At first glance, I interpreted it to be $500 over a much shorter duration, like on a monthly basis, versus ~$10/week, which even at $15/hr seems manageable enough if it means higher wages, better treatment and/or benefits. That Amazon is fighting this so hard should signal that there is something meaningful to be gained by the workers. Hopefully they recognize this and succeed in organizing. The biggest question I would have is does Amazon pull a Walmart and just shutter the FC if they succeed?
gremlinsinc 6y ago
Jeff Bezos is now seriously contemplating changing this to their company slogan: "You're too poor to fight for your rights. Know your place."

sodality2 6y ago

I love this: "Make your voice heard! VOTE NOW AND VOTE NO." Those posters are all over the warehouses and it really feels like some 1984-esque parody.

rkagerer 6y ago
I don't work there and I'm not a fan of unions but this makes me want to vote YES.
- tor11 6y ago
  voting is and has always been for sheep tho. no?
tablespoon 6y ago
> I love this: "Make your voice heard! VOTE NOW AND VOTE NO." Those posters are all over the warehouses and it really feels like some 1984-esque parody. Make your voice heard! Tell Big Brother you love him!

valbaca 6y ago

HEY BHM1 DOERS, why pay almost $500 in dues? We’ve got you covered* with high wages, health care, vision, and dental benefits, as well as a safety committee and an appeals process. There’s so much MORE you can do for your career and your family without paying dues. *Applies to regular full-time employees. IF YOU’RE PAYING DUES… it will be RESTRICTIVE meaning it won’t be easy to be as helpful and social with each other. So be a DOER, stay friendly and get things done versus paying dues. (sic) --- Couldn't even include a stock-statement like "we got you covered" without a disclaimer. "won’t be easy to be as helpful and social with each other" What the hell does that even mean? In a union you can't talk? As though you could be totally chatty before?

sodality2 6y ago
Which is hilarious, because talking during a shift is frowned upon even if it doesn't impact productivity. And if it does? Expect a call within the day
aidenn0 6y ago
It means if you join a union you can't work unpaid and off the clock to be "helpful and social" with your coworkers.
- cardiffspaceman 6y ago
  It also refers to work rules that are designed to make sure that workers doing a task are the ones who have been trained for it. Sometimes the rules seem to get in the way: Do you have to call in an electrician to plug in a PC? Or can the guy in the next cube, who saw Norm use a plug strip on PBS, plug it in? The movie version of "A brief history of time" has Dr. Hawking telling an anecdote about nailed down chairs on a set. It isn't always about neighborly overtime.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

dheera 6y ago

Maybe someone should start a second union without dues? That would leave Amazon with no way to argue.

sokoloff 6y ago
But what would be in it for union leadership under such a structure? (Not to mention that unions also have some unavoidable expenses, even if you didn't have a bunch of highly-paid union leader mouths to feed.) Amazon would still find a way to argue. "If you're not a lowest performer, don't let a union negotiate for you and force your wages down to the lowest performing among you." or many other phrases that would appeal to those who think they're above the bottom already and plant fear that bargaining with the collective would lower their outcomes.
- dheera 6y ago
  > But what would be in it for union leadership under such a structure? An ego boost? I mean this seriously -- people love being moderators of Subreddits and admins of online communities largely deep down for the ego boost. A union really needs not much more than a Discord server and maybe a Zoom membership to organize strikes and whatever else they need to do.
  - flyt 6y ago
    Unions need more than a Discord to organize. They may need to compensate union leadership for time taken to organize away from their work duties, pay for events, pay for mailers and other communications infrastructure, and of course pay for professionals like labor lawyers. No union will have much luck performing collective bargaining against Amazon without working alongside experienced lawyers. These costs don't have to be huge, but they aren't zero.
    - dheera 6y ago
      > pay for events What events? If it's to discuss a certain issue, that can be virtual and almost free. If it's a social event, meh, there are enough of those already and people can self-organize them. Hell for $500/month I could organize social events where everyone goes to Michelin 3-star restaurants every month and rants over gourmet dinners about their bosses. > pay for mailers and other communications infrastructure Use e-mail. I don't even check my snail mail box anyway unless someone tells me to expect something by e-mail, and even then when my snail mail box gets too full I usually just dump it all in the recycle bin, so it's not an effective way for a union to communicate with me. > and of course pay for professionals like labor lawyers. What if they just split the lawyer fees evenly? Assuming an experienced lawyer charges $1000/hr and spends 100 hours on a case, and there are 1 million people in the union, that amounts to about $0.10/person/case, a far cry from the $500/month they seem to be charging. Even if my numbers are off by a factor of 100 it would be only $10/person/case, and if the union won the case Amazon would probably have to pay the legal fees anyway. Although this may sound a bit naive I feel like $500/person/month sounds like there is some massive inefficiency in use of resources.

sammorrowdrums 6y ago

I kind of want a parody site, like "doitwithoutshoes.com", my first thought had been "doitwithoutjews.com" given it sounds the same, but obviously it would have to be very tastefully done to not come across as cheap or anti-Semitic. The shoes idea works as you have to pay for them. Why pay for shoes? You know you get exactly the same benefits at Amazon while barefoot? A classic similar example used to be the "godhatesfigs.com" parody of the Westboro Baptist church's similar slogan (sadly gone now) - with a bible passage where Jesus curses a fig tree.

willcipriano 6y ago

Interestingly it looks like it was made with squarespace, I'd assume they would have people in house for something like this.

jrochkind1 6y ago
It was probably made by an anti-union consulting firm they've hired. They don't do union-busting in house, they hire the experts.
- rland 6y ago
  Pinkerton entering the graphic design biz.
  - throwanem 6y ago
    In 1874, apparently, with the invention of the wanted poster: https://historyengine.richmond.edu/episodes/view/6296 https://historyengine.richmond.edu/episodes/view/6296
- sangnoir 6y ago
  The Pinkertons have been fighting workers for more than a century, I'm sure Amazon is disappointed Pinkertons can no longer gun down troublesome workers without consequences.
iainmerrick 6y ago
Google always uses agencies for one-off marketing and lobbying sites like this. I guess Amazon does the same.

oliv__ 6y ago

That website feels like it should be in a museum

wellthisisgreat 6y ago

“Be a Doer” I can’t help but think if this https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VJqr6LBFelI https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VJqr6LBFelI Can’t imagine this word could be used unironically