3 ms·

These kinds of takes are always weird to me. Shouldn't it matter, at least a little, that the rule was what a 17-point majority of voters wanted? You don't have

These kinds of takes are always weird to me. Shouldn't it matter, at least a little, that the rule was what a 17-point majority of voters wanted? You don't have to personally agree with every democratic outcome, but it almost sounds like you're saying the results of a vote aren't legitimate if they go the wrong way.

aidenn0 6y ago
This is just an anecdote, but perhaps other people can comment, since the plural of anecdote is data... I personally know several people who voted for the proposition under the impression that it was a pro-worker proposition that would guarantee benefits for drivers. There were 3 other people for whom I explained the context around it (including the fact that it was preempting a flawed bill from the legislature) before they mailed their ballots in and they changed their vote. I also know several people who think that we should eliminate the rules for treating workers as employees in general, and they voted for the bill as well, so there's definitely some support. Its definitely clear from my point of view that a significant fraction of the people who voted for the proposition did so because they misunderstood what they were voting for. OTOH that's probably true about all ballot measures ever, and probably most legislation as well.
- ViViDboarder 6y ago
  I mean, that’s exactly what these companies spent $204,222,779.20 on. And that’s just what was spent. All of these companies also advertised for free in their apps and on their mailing lists as well. Valuable space that would have likely cost millions more. Advertising works.
ahelwer 6y ago
Well, this is where we see inequality as a force that perverts democracy. The side of capital has an enormous quantity of resources (by definition) that they use to influence electoral outcomes. So in a way, yes, the votes aren't very legitimate when the side of capital out-spends the side of labor by thirteen to one: https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-10-16/skelton-proposition-22-uber-lyft-independent-contractors https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-10-16/skelton-...
- gradys 6y ago
  Do you think there's any chance that this was actually what a majority of Californians wanted? You seem very confident that you know better what the voters wanted than they did. While differences in spending surely have some effect, spending isn't the only way to get the word out. I didn't measure, but I feel pretty confident that no more than 60% of the total communication about Prop 22 that I heard from any source was pro. I think it could have been a minority actually. For every PR firm the pro side hired, there were thousands of unpaid activists on the con side (which does say something positive about the con side!). I noticed you brought out the "lawmakers can't repeal" line. This is true, but also effectively standard for ballot measures in CA. In fact the default is that you can't repeal or change the law under any circumstances. This was one point that initially swayed me to vote "against", but once I learned that this was basically how all ballot measures work (including ones you support, I'm sure), I swung back to voting "for". For me, this was a difficult call, but I voted "for" on the basis of the net good for the entire pool of current drivers, admittedly at the expense of the smaller number of drivers who would have been able to drive under a better deal had this passed. The net effect this would have had on driver welfare is far from obvious, so it always bugs me when people assert that the only reason this passed by a 17 point margin is that people were tricked and confused by the ride sharing companies.
  - ahelwer 6y ago
    Hope you're happy with your decision, oh champion of the downtrodden https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/feb/18/uber-lyft-doordash-prop-22-drivers-california https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/feb/18/uber-lyft-do...
  - aspaceman 6y ago
    Majority rule leads to tyranny of the minority. The majority, by definition, will be ignorant to some of the minority’s needs. You’ll note the issue of slavery wasn’t put to a public vote to outlaw it. It was still of a struggle to outlaw as it was.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]

aidenn0 6y ago

This is just an anecdote, but perhaps other people can comment, since the plural of anecdote is data... I personally know several people who voted for the proposition under the impression that it was a pro-worker proposition that would guarantee benefits for drivers. There were 3 other people for whom I explained the context around it (including the fact that it was preempting a flawed bill from the legislature) before they mailed their ballots in and they changed their vote. I also know several people who think that we should eliminate the rules for treating workers as employees in general, and they voted for the bill as well, so there's definitely some support. Its definitely clear from my point of view that a significant fraction of the people who voted for the proposition did so because they misunderstood what they were voting for. OTOH that's probably true about all ballot measures ever, and probably most legislation as well.

ViViDboarder 6y ago
I mean, that’s exactly what these companies spent $204,222,779.20 on. And that’s just what was spent. All of these companies also advertised for free in their apps and on their mailing lists as well. Valuable space that would have likely cost millions more. Advertising works.

ahelwer 6y ago

Well, this is where we see inequality as a force that perverts democracy. The side of capital has an enormous quantity of resources (by definition) that they use to influence electoral outcomes. So in a way, yes, the votes aren't very legitimate when the side of capital out-spends the side of labor by thirteen to one: https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-10-16/skelton-proposition-22-uber-lyft-independent-contractors https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-10-16/skelton-...

gradys 6y ago
Do you think there's any chance that this was actually what a majority of Californians wanted? You seem very confident that you know better what the voters wanted than they did. While differences in spending surely have some effect, spending isn't the only way to get the word out. I didn't measure, but I feel pretty confident that no more than 60% of the total communication about Prop 22 that I heard from any source was pro. I think it could have been a minority actually. For every PR firm the pro side hired, there were thousands of unpaid activists on the con side (which does say something positive about the con side!). I noticed you brought out the "lawmakers can't repeal" line. This is true, but also effectively standard for ballot measures in CA. In fact the default is that you can't repeal or change the law under any circumstances. This was one point that initially swayed me to vote "against", but once I learned that this was basically how all ballot measures work (including ones you support, I'm sure), I swung back to voting "for". For me, this was a difficult call, but I voted "for" on the basis of the net good for the entire pool of current drivers, admittedly at the expense of the smaller number of drivers who would have been able to drive under a better deal had this passed. The net effect this would have had on driver welfare is far from obvious, so it always bugs me when people assert that the only reason this passed by a 17 point margin is that people were tricked and confused by the ride sharing companies.
- ahelwer 6y ago
  Hope you're happy with your decision, oh champion of the downtrodden https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/feb/18/uber-lyft-doordash-prop-22-drivers-california https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/feb/18/uber-lyft-do...
- aspaceman 6y ago
  Majority rule leads to tyranny of the minority. The majority, by definition, will be ignorant to some of the minority’s needs. You’ll note the issue of slavery wasn’t put to a public vote to outlaw it. It was still of a struggle to outlaw as it was.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]