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Sneakerheads have turned Jordans and Yeezys into an asset class
- rektide 6y agoIt feels overwhelming that there are so many arbitrary, seemingly pedestrian articles of this world being boosted in value to such stratospheric heights. Society's measures just keep seeming so out of balance, so wildly over-inflated, on so many accounts, & it just seems like, with valuations, there's almost never any means for these belief structures to be countered. The structures of faith supporting these valuations have no maintenance costs, & any element of scarcity fuels a FOMO that further stratifies. Everything feels unmoored, decoupled, floating off the planet. I hate that I yearn for reckoning, on so many areas, but economically, faith only ever accrues, builds, escalates.
- ahelwer 6y agoRead an interesting theory that this "missing inflation" from all the money printing is already here - it just affects things that people with money buy, so stocks/real estate/collectibles/cryptocurrency basically. Reason being all the printed money went straight to the rich. The CPI is untouched.
- kortex 6y agoI feel this in my bones. Some part of this is not new - from the tulip mania to beanie babies - but there definitely feels like more abstraction creeps in every year. I like concrete things. Rugged tools, reliable cars, but these are boring. You can't build a bubble on boring, moored ideas, you need hype.
- loudandskittish 6y ago> You can't build a bubble on boring, moored ideas, you need hype. ...except for houses
- kortex 6y agoTouché! Although if you are referring to the the great housing bubble, I think a big contributing factor was financial instruments and practices which enabled more "bubbly" behavior. Giving people access to mortgages that historically would likely not have been given, and in hindsight absolutely should not have been given, injected a ton of cheap and easy money into the system. The more degrees of indirection, the more unhinged it can become. Concrete to abstract: - make a house yourself - buy a house with cash - buy a house with a mortgage with a large down payment (low risk, easy to back) - buy a house with good credit and less down payment but PPI (riskier, the bank needs to hedge more) - no down payment, less than stellar credit, more house than you need, etc. The latter is super high risk and normally would not be underwritten. But someone figured out you could bundle the risk in order to distribute that risk, surely only a collapse of the whole housing market could make them massively default! Oops.
- atsushin 6y agoI feel like this phenomena really can only happen in 'first-world' countries like America -- in fact, maybe it's almost a uniquely American thing driven by our culture of optimism... combined with the need to look trendy, which doesn't really have any geographical boundaries.
- rualca 6y agoVeblen goods are not exclusive to america.
- barnaclejive 6y agoDid you just comment to use the word Veblen? He said "'first-world' countries like America". You may be confusing the term "like" and "exclusive".
- barnaclejive 6y agofor. sure. 100% ridiculous, yet not a problem that couldn't use a solution in its context.
- barnaclejive 6y agoYou said a lot of words that can simply be countered by a 22yo saying "yolo" and they aren't exactly wrong either. As an individual, you do only live once. How do you want to spend that time? Being upset at the way things are, or enjoying it to the extent that you can? I'm not advocating for this thinking, just saying it is valid point of view. It is actually helpful to cut off you criticism of things at a certain point and focus on a realistic balance of concerns, cause, you know, yolo ;)
- rektide 6y agoI got a lot of advice on how I should opt not to care yesterday too on HN. I'm tired of being berated for being a human, with senses, who perceives things, and tries to discern order. That I care is not a fault. But yes, sure. I do try to allow others, to permit the flourishing, wild world around me. I don't take umbrage with this unreason. But it does feel like so many cycles have such poor self-correction, and that does cause a generalized concern.
- barnaclejive 6y agoAgain with so many 5-dollar words and superfluous commas ... try just living for once instead of typing.
- runawaybottle 6y agoSuperfluous commas are an asset class on HN.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- barnaclejive 6y agobut how can I short sell them?
- rektide 6y agoMore berating & downtalk! Stay classy.
- barnaclejive 6y agoHm. I had to stop and think at the part: "When the shoes went on sale an hour later, Hebert’s team swarmed the Yeezy Supply website ... each prepped with Hebert’s credit card information and capable of gaming a system meant to limit purchases to one pair per customer. Are the sellers not able to limit based on CC number? Perhaps not. I know most websites don't actually have any visibility into the payment info that is usually handled by a third party payment processor integration. Seriously tho, something must be possible. A payment processor feature that has allotment restrictions based on client+card or delivery address must be possible. Payment processors should be jumping at the opportunity to charge extra for that type of protection for clients that are selling limited high-demand products. Obv using more cards is a workaround, but it doesn't sound like the hoarder even had to go that far.
- BoorishBears 6y agoI've thought about this problem as a start up idea The thing is, it's trivial to come up with fake card details. Stupidly trivial. And the more intensive your verification, the lower your conversion rate from click to sale... So the idea would have to be something like validating valid ID before the sale happens, since validating a real form of identification can take days in some cases. Maybe you could become a household name in anti-scalping and get people to sign up before they ever buy something from a specific retailer, then provide an API retailers can use to verify a "real person" was registered on your site with a given set of info. - The problem is convincing a retailer to let you get hooks in their checkout system for this. At the end of the day demand is so high for these things even taking dissatisfaction into account it really isn't costing the retailer anything at all... If anything it's just driving demand even higher as it attracts speculators who otherwise wouldn't be interested...
- bsder 6y ago> At the end of the day demand is so high for these things even taking dissatisfaction into account it really isn't costing the retailer anything at all... Well, the retailer only cares enough to look like they care enough so that they don't garner negative press. The retailer really only cares that they sell. Yes, the retailer would like to capture some of that scalper premium but doing so without also alienating the customer base is difficult. (see: Ticketmaster--whose almost sole purpose is to serve as a blame repository for egregious ticket prices)
- atsushin 6y agoI wonder if things will get to the point (or maybe we're already there) that it would be feasible enough to set up something akin to a SaaS/PaaS for botting operations. Similar to how DDoS crews rent time and botnet resources for customers, such a service could auction off time slots (e.g. specific 'drop' dates in the case of sneakers) to users who want to buy en masse or ensure that they can at least get some amount of the product they want.
- penagwin 6y agoOh they already exist :D Heck I have a feeling adecent number of people who work on such operations are on HN
- franklampard 6y agoAlready. The sneaker market is filled with sophisticated bots.
- JohnCurran 6y agoThese have existed for quite some time. If you'd like to take a closer look, see: https://www.reddit.com/r/shoebots/ https://www.reddit.com/r/shoebots/ https://shop.houseofcarts.io https://shop.houseofcarts.io
- ZeroSync 6y agoHey, this is more or less being done. The best bots/groups are bringing in comparable salary if not more than industry standard in their respective fields. If anyone is interested in developing Bots/Platform to secure limited items em masse, please shoot me an email at: sukh@zerosync.io I have direct connects with some of the biggest sneaker storefronts, and looking for developers.
- x86_64Ubuntu 6y agoWouldn't a bot network used to purchase any kind of good run afoul of the CFAA? I've never heard of such, but I wouldn't put it past a high level company to make a stink and then send Feds to peoples' doors.
- nceqs3 6y agoI cringe every time I see somebody wearing Supreme and talking about how street and cool they are. Supreme is owned by The Carlyle Group :|
- BoorishBears 6y agoI'll bite... why would that matter?
- Judgmentality 6y agoEh, it's sort of like your brand being anti-establishment, but you're owned by the establishment.
- Fezzik 6y agoAs hinted in the OP, people buy Supreme products because they (the buyer) view the product as being ‘street’ (not Big Corp) and, therefore, ‘cool’. When, in fact, the opposite is true - Supreme is the epitome of Big Corps bilking kiddies and dummies for $100 Fruit of the Loom t-shirts with shoddy graphics.
- BoorishBears 6y agoI don't think you're aware of the value of the brands then... Because for example, the people do pay hundreds for Fruit of the Loom or Gildan hoodies with graphics when albums come out. And it's not a secret either, people like that it's a common well established brand making the clothes the graphics go on. What makes them cool is exclusivity and authenticity (as in being from the brand). After all, no one thinks Supreme made a factory to manufacture bricks: https://stockx.com/supreme-clay-brick-red https://stockx.com/supreme-clay-brick-red Yeezys are also considered cool but they're also by Adidas... a giant boring multinational compared to the image Yeezys portray
- Fezzik 6y agoI am very aware of what idiots will pay for brand names, but that has nothing to do with any sort of inherent or quantifiable value a product has. I think we, as a society, need to get better at calling people out for being beyond irresponsible with their money. A Supreme block logo slapped on a $1.00 Gildan cotton shirt does not add $99 of value because ‘exclusivity’. Things like the meteoric rise and fall of things like Beanie Babies help illuminate this fact. You can pay $700 for a North Face Supreme jacket that can be purchased for $120 without the branding... but you’re an idiot for doing so. Ultimately, it’s just the difference between being financially intelligent and not - the financially smart people are selling the lemmings the products... Edit, to add a complete tangent: I watched this video of a $100 vs $10,000 guitar today - do you hear $9,900 in price differnece between the 2, or is the value created elsewhere? https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KDA9iw4po1c https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KDA9iw4po1c
- bluedevil2k 6y agoThere’s stories every few days about how some new “asset class” is exploding in value. Sneakers, baseball cards, diamonds, comic books, Bitcoin (I’m sure there are many others). There are signs of a big bubble all over the place now.
- sharkweek 6y agoI'm all in on Beanie Babies making a comeback annnnnny day now... Edit: I just checked Ebay... I think I need to call my mom and see if she still has those things anywhere, holy shit - https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2380057.m570.l1313&_nkw=beanie+babies&_sacat=0 https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2380057.m...
- bombastry 6y agoIt's tough to come to any conclusion from looking at eBay listings. Especially when many of the listings are from possible scammers. Sort by "most bids" and set the minimum value to $100. Only a few have even a single bid, with just a couple having multiple bids. Also, the most expensive single-bid items all have sellers with no feedback. The market price is one that buyers are willing to pay, not just one sellers are willing to list. You should probably call your mom anyway though. I'm sure she'd appreciate the chance to talk to you.
- WalterGR 6y agoIt's tough to come to any conclusion from looking at eBay listings. Does eBay still let you search closed listings if you're logged in?
- sep_field 6y agoYes, its under Advanced search.. you can filter by closed listings or only sold listings
- sharkweek 6y ago> You should probably call your mom anyway though. I'm sure she'd appreciate the chance to talk to you. This is great advice, thanks for the reminder :)
- runawaybottle 6y agoLife is like a giant porn site. Not every category is for you, but yes, shit gets weird. Don’t overthink it I guess.
- Clewza313 6y agoSerious question: why don't sneaker manufacturers move to an auction model, and simply capture the extra margin for themselves? Some arguments I've heard are "fairness" (as if regular people happily drop $500 on sneakers) and the marketing optics of some sneaker brand being hot because there are queues outside stores before a drop.
- sneak 6y agoBecause every pair will go for a significantly higher amount of money, and it will exclude the vast majority of their fanbase, the size of which is the reason they go for a lot of money in the first place. Imagine how popular a sports team would remain if normal people could never hope to afford at ticket.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- forgotmypw17 6y agoI think this ecosystem of re-selling is part of what creates perceived value and perceived scarcity.
- dalbasal 6y agoExactly. In fact, I'd argue this is what "becoming an asset class" means. Liquidity. Secondary markets. Prices that are disconnected with the underlying sneaker. etc. I think sneaker companies do the opposite to what OP suggests, in fact. They do things like creating abundance in one place and scarcity in another. This creates an opportunity for dealers, speculators, and secondary market activity. That whole complex is what makes sneakers an asset class... which in turn makes it a premium fashion item. Nitpick: The scarcity isn't perceived. It's real, just "artificial" in the sense that they produce limited amounts on purpose, and limit it in other ways.
- rdtwo 6y agoYes it’s part of the model. If there was no scarcity nobody would pay 220-280 for some sneakers
- Larrikin 6y agoTo be fair to Yeezys they are literally the most comfortable pair of shoes I've ever worn in my life. I'm embarrassed to wear my very first pair out in public after they got dripped on by some black gunk from the el train tracks that couldn't even be bleached out but they are serving me very well as indoor shoes and on my treadmill. I own multiple other pairs now so I also feel less bad only wearing those inside. With all the hype now I think Adidas is actually positioned very well to eventually supplant Nike in the market place. Shoe prices keep going up but Adidas has invested in a new tech that is incredible to wear to justify the cost while combining it with high end fashion. I was very much in to sneakers growing up and can probably count on one hand the number of non Nike sneakers I ever bought during that time period. Jordans keep going up in price but every single pair I've bought in the past five to ten years has been cheap junk with paint that chips, soles that disintegrate and detach, and just extremely cheap build quality. I've been wearing Jordans for almost my entire life (there are toddler photos of me with a pair of 4s on) and they were my favorite type of sneaker during high school and college. There is a stark difference in the quality. I have a pair of 1s I bought in 2008 I still wear regularly, where as the last pair I bought developed a hole in the bottom after 2 years of use. This is combined with the massive difference in the marketplace for buying their sneakers. When I was in college I went to exactly one Jordan sneaker drop and the police ended up needing to be called and I was totally turned off to the idea forever. Nike and Adidas run their drops very differently for the most part nowadays, although Yeezy Supply occasionally will backtrack. On Yeezysupply, the Adidas app, and the Adidas confirm app they've mostly settled into a flow where they let you know a week ahead of time a sneaker is coming out, you register your information ahead of time, they do a charge and refund to your card to verify it and then at 9:05 about on release day you get a congratulations notification or a so sorry notification from a random drawing. Before covid they would occasionally also do drops based on GPS location that make you have to goto the store for a guaranteed pair but no guarantee of your size so you'd still have to wait in line, which was extremely annoying but all the sneakers are atleast 1.5x increase in price immediately on release so you could always sell for a small profit to sometimes larger profit. On the Nike SNKR app you get all the stress of waiting in line from the comfort of your home, you need to monitor the app for shoes with a pending release so you can register for notifications. On the day of you should have atleast two devices like a phone and tablet. The Android app is poorly programmed in comparison to the iOS app for no real reason other than it was farmed out to a bad consulting agency. You need to have all your credit card information saved ahead of time and your verification code memorized. A minute before you need to start tapping the disabled button or monitor www.time.gov. You get into the buy flow and have to read quickly to find your size, enter your memorized verification number, and you wait an arbitrary amount of time for the app to tell you that you if you're getting a pair or not. All these tips I've read and applied but have never actually gotten a pair of sneakers I've wanted from the app. I still buy multiple pairs of sneakers a year, but I have bought one single pair of Nikes in the past few years because the company has made it so difficult for me to give them money. I believe Nike is living and existing off their former glory when it comes to the sneaker head community. I only ever bother with Nike at this point for classic designs that came out in the 80s and 90s that have been redone in a unique way, such as their collaborations with Virgil and other high end fashion designers. I refuse to pay more than retail for any sneaker because there will always be a new color or design out next month anyway. There's the disappointment associated with both companies of not getting a sneaker I want, but Nike has taken it to the extreme on the other side so much that most people can't get the shoe and when you actually can its crap quality in comparison to Adidas. Adidas needs to come out with a few more worthwhile pairs, maybe poach some athlete, artists, or designer from Nike, and they can begin to dominate. All of this is with the caveat I have no idea what is going on in the marketplace when it comes to athletic wear for professional athletes. I think personally its less important to nearly everyone who isn't a professional athlete at this point as all the major players seem competent. All the real innovations from Nike, like their swim suits, seem to eventually get banned anyway.
- williesleg 6y agoIs that why the antifa christmas shoppers all grab them?
- kartoshechka 6y agoI'm surprised author just have figured that one out, it's been here for like 6 years. As in any system, people will try to game it, and reselling is far from being an incomprehensible one.
- WalterBright 6y agoI read somewhere that athletic shoes don't last. 20-30 years, and they crumble away, even if left untouched in the box. I suppose it's like the foam insulation on my '72 Dodge - touch it and it turns to dust. Some of the plastic parts crack and disintegrate. Rubber falls apart. It was never designed to last this long.
- thaumasiotes 6y ago> 20-30 years, and they crumble away, even if left untouched in the box. Ah, but if they're a store of value that is never removed from the box, does it matter whether they work? Does it matter whether they're in there?
- chrisseaton 6y agoIf they've crumbled away, then you can see that just by looking in the box, can't you?
- thaumasiotes 6y agoWhy would you look in the box?
- chrisseaton 6y agoI don't understand why you're buying shoes never to even look at them?
- pjc50 6y agoResale value? Opening the box ruins that.
- chrisseaton 6y agoI don't think these shoes come in a sealed box though. Nothing stops you looking at them even if you're going to resell them. And if you are going to resell them, you'll need to state the condition, and as the thread says the condition deteriorates.
- MeinBlutIstBlau 6y agoHow does a 19 year old have an Amex card with over 130k limit? These stories always blow my mind that purport just an ordinary person could do this...
- jl2718 6y agoDon’t tell the IRS. Wearing shoes is now realizing capital gains.
- Garlef 6y agoSame thing is happening with other products - for example Magic: The Gathering. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEOB5sltnC8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEOB5sltnC8 And companies build their products around this: https://secretlair.wizards.com https://secretlair.wizards.com
- elliekelly 6y agoHermès Birkin Bags have famously beat the S&P for decades: https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/fashion/hermes-birkin-bag-better-investment-stocks-gold-why-explained-a7651936.html https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/fashion/hermes-birk...
- fortran77 6y agoI wonder how he manages to convince/prove to buyers that he's selling authentic product. The problem with buying high-end sneakers on the secondary market is you're very likely to get stuck with a counterfeit. People reselling authentic shoes need to be able to build trust, and it seems like a tough issue.
- greedo 6y agoStockx does product valuation. If you buy a pair from them, you are pretty sure to get real kicks.
- KozmoNau7 6y agoI'm going to be very honest here: this whole obsession with artificially limited commodity items like sneakers is utterly insane. Perhaps my outlook is just old-fashioned and practical, but to me, shoes and clothes and similar practical items are meant to be used and worn, not locked away as some sort of store of value, with absolutely no practical purpose, to slowly deteriorate and turn to dust, just because an artificially limited supply was created, and because hype on social media told you to desire them. Use what you buy. If you buy things that you end up not using, give them away to someone who will actually use them. A nicely worn pair of shoes is admirable and completely worn out shoes are a badge of honor. A pair of shoes that just sit unused in the box is a waste.
- Klwohu 6y agoNo they haven't. Not by a long shot. This is beanie babies for adults.