13 ms·

Mac OS X Lion: Coming In July For $29

207 points by sandipc 15y ago

jevinskie 15y ago
It will be interesting to see how the OS installs over itself now that it is being distributed through the app store. I wonder if they will create a new partition with the installer and reboot into it.
- adamesque 15y ago
  Supposedly there are no reboots. No idea how they're managing that.
  - fletchowns 15y ago
    Maybe something Ksplice like? http://www.ksplice.com/ http://www.ksplice.com/
    - nkassis 15y ago
      Wouldn't that require it being in the kernel right now?
      - rahoulb 15y ago
        10.6.7 is supposed to be a "prepare for Lion" release
        masklinn 15y ago
        10.6.8 no? 10.6.7 is the current one.
    - xbryanx 15y ago
      Maybe something like this IS in the kernel right now.
- drewcrawford 15y ago
  According to [1], Phil Schiller said "no reboots". Any idea how that is accomplished, or was it a misstatement? [1] http://www.engadget.com/2011/06/06/wwdc-2011-liveblog-steve-jobs-talks-ios-5-os-x-lion-icloud-an/?sort=newest&refresh=60 http://www.engadget.com/2011/06/06/wwdc-2011-liveblog-steve-..., Ctrl+F for "reboots"
  - wmf 15y ago
    They probably mean no additional reboots; in many OSes first you boot the installer/upgrader, then you install, then you boot the installed OS.
    - rimantas 15y ago
      He said that no reboot from optical disk will be needed to start the installation.
- calloc 15y ago
  On Unix systems you can replace files on disk without issues because of the way it does reference counting to the underlying file system. Unlike Windows where this is not possible. I am better there is still one single reboot to start up the new kernel and whatnot. Although I can't find any details on it.
  - fleitz 15y ago
    The reason why you can replace executables on Unix is because unix loads the entire file before executing where as Windows does not need to do this, hence executables are opened with out FILE_SHARE_DELETE which would allow you to delete the file while it's open on Windows. If you create a file and open it with FILE_SHARE_DELETE you can delete it while it's in use. This has absolutely nothing to do with the underlying file system format and everything to do file semantics as documented in the Win32 API. http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa363858(v=vs.85).aspx http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa363858(v=vs.85).as...
    - minimax 15y ago
      There is no requirement for UNIX to "load the entire file before executing," nor does the deletion of files on disk have anything to do with whether or not a file is executable. Under UNIX, any file which has been opened will be accessible until it is closed, regardless of whether or not the file has been deleted (the number of hard links for the inode drops to zero, in UNIX parlance). For a more technical explanation see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inode http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inode
koenigdavidmj 15y ago
I wonder how much of a wrench in the works that will be for Hackintosh people.
- minalecs 15y ago
  If you install a valid registered copy of the OS on the hardware, I imagine none. For the people that obtain the OS through not so legal means, then I imagine they'll still be able to get around it as most application on the appstore are obtainable through other means.
  - sandipc 15y ago
    technically none of the copies of Mac OS X running on Hackintoshes are "valid" -- Apple's Leopard/Snow Leopard boxes are technically upgrades only, not full installs, even though they work perfectly fine as full installs.
  - beck5 15y ago
    I hope your right, but on most small releases 'tinkering' needs to be done to make it work. We will have to wait and see.
config_yml 15y ago
It's only available through the Mac App Store. So how can people upgrade from 10.5 without going the extra step to 10.6, which is required for the app store?
- lysol 15y ago
  Can't you typically only upgrade to the next revision up? e.g. 10.5 to 10.6
  - drewcrawford 15y ago
    Yeah but typically you can grab a disk and do a clean install from 10.0 to 10.5. He's saying that now you have to do a clean install from a disk to get to 10.5, and then MAS 10.5->10.6, which is more work.
  - wmf 15y ago
    No, some people used to skip versions to save money. But now that each update is only $30 they can afford to stay current.
- pavlov 15y ago
  Presumably Apple thinks they should get Lion preinstalled on a new Mac, since 10.5 users are due for a hardware upgrade anyway (from Apple's point of view).
  - noarchy 15y ago
    I'm sure that their sales team wants people to think that, regarding hardware ;) On the other hand, regarding jumping from 10.5 to 10.7: would this require the purchase of a Snow Leopard DVD, so that 10.6 would be covered in-between? I'd be curious to know.
furyg3 15y ago
Hmm... so what happens if my hard drive crashes and I replace it myself?
- d3fun 15y ago
  It tied to your apple account . You can login into app store and install it without having to pay again just like how the current app store works with other apps.
  - ugh 15y ago
    Replacement harddrives tend to be empty.
    - MediaBehavior 15y ago
      I know not everybody has an external case, but many of those who replace own HDs do. They can (as I do): Use Carbon Copy Cloner to backup / prepare for system upgrade.
      - ugh 15y ago
        Sure, that’s when you have a working and bootable backup. If you don’t (for example because you are using Time Machine) it’s not really clear what you do. I think Apple has thought of some solution, we just don’t know it yet. It’s an interesting question.
- ugh 15y ago
  “You bring your Mac to the Apple Store!” is probably the answer Apple would give you. There might also be a way for you to put the installer on some drive. (There currently is one with the Developers Preview. It works just like the dmgs of older OS X discs and you can find it inside the App bundle of the installer you download in the App Store.)
- rauljara 15y ago
  Interesting question. If you could get the app-store on your computer, you could just redownload the OS (buy once, install on any number of computers). But how do you get the app store on your fresh hard drive? A time machine restore would work, but what if you had no time machine... I wonder if apple will let you burn a dvd with the os once you purchase it. I am worried they might force you to go to an apple store (which would suck if you weren't near one), but who knows. If they don't offer a reasonable solution right now, I suspect they will have to offer one in the near future by force of customer outrage.
mark_l_watson 15y ago
The download only distribution will be a nuisance for 64G SSD MacBook Airs like my wife's laptop. She often only has 5 or 10 GB of free disk space.
- Steko 15y ago
  Maybe they will be offering something which will free up space on her machine to cloud storage.
- rauljara 15y ago
  The download is 4 gb.
  - troutwine 15y ago
    Surely it will have to unpack itself a bit.
    - sipefree 15y ago
      They said that the update is done in-place and apparently without a reboot.
      - code_duck 15y ago
        The unix style of file locking sure is showing it's advantage over Windows. Not that rebooting for an OS upgrade is too onerous, but using Windows one has to reboot for the most trivial things - Adobe Acrobat, Skype updates and the like.
        iaskwhy 15y ago
        This has been said many times before but on OSX you actually need to reboot after updating Safari. I'm not 100% sure about iTunes but I believe it still needs a reboot after updating.
        15y ago
follower 15y ago
4GB isn't insignificant in countries with bandwidth caps.
- xbryanx 15y ago
  The extra bandwidth cost seems like it would be covered in the severely discounted OS price.
  - statictype 15y ago
    Cost of the bandwidth is one issue. The amount of time it takes to download is another. I have a 4mbps connection but power cuts and fluctuations makes it difficult to do a 4gb download from Apple. Every upgrade of Xcode is a horror. The download stalls in the middle and then fails to re-continue because the session timed out. I have to end up doing some gymnastics by exporting cookies from the browser to a file and then coaxing wget to use that. I hope they've got a decent pause/resume system on the Mac App Store downloads.
- decadentcactus 15y ago
  Speaking from Australia, I'll assume that at least iinet will have it on their cap-less servers to download. For example most major Steam games are and don't count against the cap.
  - ejdyksen 15y ago
    Interesting...in the case of Steam, does the ISP run that server, or do they just whitelist the Steam server IP?
    - seabee 15y ago
      I know some UK ISPs have their own Steam servers. Some also cache YouTube videos for this purpose, for example.
    - decadentcactus 15y ago
      As far as I know it's the ISP which has a cache of it, so I just download from the local server.
wildmXranat 15y ago
Will they offer a usb stick option for $29 ?
deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
dsplittgerber 15y ago
Anyone else surprised by how many hugely popular apps Apple is going to kill with new Lion/iOS? Instapaper built-into Safari now, all kinds of messanger apps killed by iMessage, some of those photo apps going down the drain as well, Reminders app is a huge one as well. All targeting really popular app categories. Sure, some people care about thing X being done supremely well and will still pay for some apps. But the huge majority will probably be really fine with Apples version.
dongsheng 15y ago
Oh come on apple now we have to do everything through your stores?
- noarchy 15y ago
  This is not a total change in direction for Apple, just a fleshing out of what they've been wanting to do for a while. Expect more of this in the future, not less.
  - ojilles 15y ago
    And seeing how I now first need to order physical disks to upgrade to Snow Leopard in order to get this latest release, I kinda reflect back and wish they had done this sooner :-)
- thedeuce 15y ago
  If you don't like it don't buy it? What more is there to be said.
tvon 15y ago
dsplittgerber seems to have a valid point, though one that is understood by anyone who has followed Apple for long. Still, unsure why the comment is [dead]. http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2625727 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2625727 To respond, Apple has never had a problem re-implementing a 3rd party app and integrating it into the system, Dashboard is a classic example of this. It's a bit hostile towards 3rd party developers, but generally good for users (at least that's the argument).
recoiledsnake 15y ago
Not sure why below comment is dead. The account seems ok and not hell banned. Was it flagged to death? If so, anyone who flagged it,why? dsplittgerber 24 minutes ago | link [dead] Anyone else surprised by how many hugely popular apps Apple is going to kill with new Lion/iOS? Instapaper built-into Safari now, all kinds of messanger apps killed by iMessage, some of those photo apps going down the drain as well, Reminders app is a huge one as well. All targeting really popular app categories. Sure, some people care about thing X being done supremely well and will still pay for some apps. But the huge majority will probably be really fine with Apples version.
- matthew-wegner 15y ago
  Compare LockInfo (commercial jailbroken app): http://cdn.techhail.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/LockInfo-Customize-Jailbroken-iPhone-Lockscreen-With-Messages-Calendar-and-Push-Notifications.jpg http://cdn.techhail.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/LockInfo-... With the new notifications: http://photos.macrumorslive.com/p/2011-06-06/f1307382511.jpg http://photos.macrumorslive.com/p/2011-06-06/f1307382511.jpg
  - masklinn 15y ago
    I find the general look of the new notifications much closer to MobileNotifier, whose lead dev (Peter Hajas) was just hired by Apple. That's actually the fairest case by far, as they basically "bought" the project through its lead dev.
- dsplittgerber 15y ago
  I accidentally clicked twice and two identical comments were created. I deleted one. Alas, the other seems to have gone rougue as well.
  - code_duck 15y ago
    This has happened to me before - I triple posted, then deleted two comments to find that the remaining one was marked dead. I think HN has duplicate detection and dupes get marked dead automatically, so one should keep this in mind when manually deleting duplicate posts. It's good to wait a few minutes and see whether it's already taken care of.
toomanymike 15y ago
Curious for one of my favorite apps, can anyone comment on BetterTouchTool (http://www.boastr.de/ http://www.boastr.de/) quality on the new build?
- ivarv 15y ago
  The first part of today's keynote had a strong emphasis on multitouch and gestures being integrated into the OS. As a BTT user myself I'm very curious to see if BTT has been obsoleted by Apple.
recoiledsnake 15y ago
>This isn’t actually the first time Apple has offered an OS upgrade at a steep discount compared to its Windows rival (which typically runs over $100) — Snow Leopard made its debut at $29. A pretty flawed apples to oranges comparison. OS X is more similar to bios updates... you buy the hardware, the vendor makes money off it and gives away the software. With Microsoft, you're paying the OEM money for the hardware(with razor thin margins usually but that's another story), so Microsoft doesn't make bank on expensive hardware and upgrades to RAM/HDD/CPU that Apple makes. Edit: Not to mention that 10.5 to 10.7 is not upgradeable, you have to buy and install 10.6 first, install the App Store and then install 10.7. Windows 7 may not be upgradeable directly from XP without a format, but atleast you don't have to but and upgrade to Vista first!
- mgkimsal 15y ago
  True, but if Vista was $29 more people might have done it in the first place.
  - chrisjsmith 15y ago
    There was so much bad PR, noone would bother. They tried to give corporate customers (select agreement sized ones) free copies and they said no.
    - mgkimsal 15y ago
      They didn't try with me. They didn't try with any of my friends. I think they're trying with the wrong crowd. Interesting side thought here (at least to me). MS has traditionally done very well selling to the larger enterprise market. As the headcount in those orgs go down, will MS' influence drop? Newer people coming in will probably have come from smaller orgs where MS is less prevalent, and when there's overall fewer people at an org, there's fewer people to influence/market to. I tell a lie. I had/have an Ultimate Vista that I won at a local user group raffle. I've installed it, but in virtual machines, which I've lost a couple times. Getting it re set up by going through the 'call up and get reactivated' is always a pain. :(
thomasgerbe 15y ago
Great news. Now if only they just did away with the optical drives on MBP's. I have used mine about... twice in three years since owning my current laptop.
- code_duck 15y ago
  Absolutely, I'd gladly trade this optical drive, which I've used twice in a year, for two more USB ports. Hard to believe that my $2200 MBP has only two USB ports, which constrains me daily, and my $500 Toshiba has four. If Airs can do without the drive, there's no reason MBPs can't as well. They're running the same OS after all.
  - thomasgerbe 15y ago
    Agree. I hear people on MacRumors saying the professional laptop should have the most features (thus, the optical drive) but for me, more USB ports and potentially a second HDD would do more for my day-to-day activities than an optical drive.
- matthew-wegner 15y ago
  You can put another HD (or SSD) in your optical bay: http://www.mcetech.com/optibay/ http://www.mcetech.com/optibay/ Cheap eBay brackets are ~$20 and accomplish the same thing. There are a couple of caveats--here's everything you need to know: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2493938 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2493938
  - thomasgerbe 15y ago
    How is the battery life?
    - matthew-wegner 15y ago
      Seems unchanged for me (I added an SSD, so the existing 7200 RPM HD became a rarely-used media drive). I see ~5.5 hours real-world use on a 15" MBP, and my development environment includes a virtualized XP install.
mortenjorck 15y ago
This App Store-only distribution has me concerned about small business upgrades. Let's say I have an office with 10 workstations. How do I upgrade? Do I have to create an iTunes account for each computer, and enter a company credit card number on each one? Can multiple iTunes accounts even share the same credit card number? Perhaps I could get by with two accounts, since iTunes allows sharing on up to five Macs. But that's still far from an elegant solution, and it doesn't scale any better. And what about users who already have their workstations activated with their home iTunes accounts?
- iloveponies 15y ago
  Apparently, there will be some sort of netboot option. Although that in itself will require you to have server for the role...
- hexley 15y ago
  You can "burn" the DMG to a USB key or DVD-ROM.
  - wmf 15y ago
    But first he has to figure out how to pay for N copies.
- christoph 15y ago
  Agree. I use Mac's at exhibitions all over the world. Anything without physical media of some sort (USB/DVD/CD/HDD) is as good as useless to me as often I don't have an internet connection or it's painfully slow.
- nettdata 15y ago
  Historically you could use OSX Server as a local update/patch server, and have other Mac's on the LAN use it instead of downloading the same stuff again. They say they're making Lion Server free and easily configured, and I'm hoping that they're integrating the App store components as well.
  - 15y ago
rythie 15y ago
Title is misleading, $29.99 to zero decimal places is $30 not $29.
- tudorizer 15y ago
  That's how our whole consumer culture is tricked :)
frou_dh 15y ago
If Lion supports TRIM for all SSDs, I want to zap my Intel drive and do a fresh install so that there are no mystery regions on the drive. I hope a normal DVD will be available on the quiet.
- matthew-wegner 15y ago
  There is a TRIM Enabler for Snow Leopard: http://www.groths.org/?p=308 http://www.groths.org/?p=308
  - frou_dh 15y ago
    Thanks, but unofficial kext patching would knock me out of my I-can-trust-the-machine groove.
deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
iramiller 15y ago
Has anyone seen references to how the server tools will be distributed? The rumor mill had indicated that there would be a mac app store version but I have not seen a confirmation on if these pieces are in the regular 10.7 upgrade or not. The server edition of 10.6 was $500 and distinct from the $29 regular edition so I am expecting a separate paid download to be required...
- callahad 15y ago
  It's an additional $50, as per http://www.apple.com/macosx/server/ http://www.apple.com/macosx/server/ The upgrade path for existing Server users is Snow Leopard Server to Lion, then Lion to Lion Server.
MatthewPhillips 15y ago
Really wish this was coming out sooner. I plan on getting the Samsung Chromebook on the 16th, which will be my primary "fun" computer. I'll keep my Macbook for development, but I'm not sure I'll use it in the way that these consumer features are meant for. If it was coming on now I'd go ahead and get it just to play around with. Now I don't know.
- saturdaysaint 15y ago
  "Your Mac must have an Intel Core 2 Duo, Core i3, Core i5, Core i7, or Xeon processor to run Lion. Find out if your current Mac has one of these processors by clicking the Apple icon at the top left of your screen, then choosing About This Mac."
enterneo 15y ago
any news on whether it is for 64-bit processors ONLY? my core-solo mac mini wants to know :-S
- SnowLprd 15y ago
  According to Apple, your Mini isn't supported under Lion: "Your Mac must have an Intel Core 2 Duo, Core i3, Core i5, Core i7, or Xeon processor to run Lion." I have a Core Duo-powered Mini and am in the same boat. That said, my Mini is at least five years old, and I don't think it's at all unreasonable for Apple to focus their limited resources on more modern machines. Besides, my Mini is running Tiger in a data center, so I'm not losing any sleep over not being to run full-screen apps on it. ;)
  - jrockway 15y ago
    Incidentally, pretty much any Linux distribution will support your slightly-older Mac Mini as though it were brand new.
- orangecat 15y ago
  Lion is 64-bit only. Although the early minis have socketed CPUs, so you could theoretically replace it with a Core 2: http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/systems/mac_mini_core_2_duo_swaps.html http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/systems/mac_mini_core_2_duo_swaps...
  - enterneo 15y ago
    oh! good to know!
- thelibrarian 15y ago
  Yes, it is 64 bit only - Core 2 Duo or newer required.
Newky 15y ago
I don't mean to be off topic, but I really feel, although this is an improvement on the price of Windows upgrade, I think that there is nothing in this release that would drive me off any Linux, particularly a rolling release distribution. I know that for certain fields, such as multimedia, apple offers a lot, but with new offerings such as Gnome 3, a mature KDE 4, and Ubuntu's unity, for the standard desktop user or developer for that matter, I argue that Linux should enthrall and for one of the first times the difference in price tag isn't the only plus. Stability, Safety and polish are quickly becoming relevant keywords for Linux desktops. Although the new Unity and Gnome Shell may lack the stability, you can always fall back on the watertight Gnome default desktop.
- danielrhodes 15y ago
  No.
  - Newky 15y ago
    Sorry that you didn't find that relevant.
- astrange 15y ago
  Would you say this is the year of Linux on the desktop?
  - Newky 15y ago
    No, please just ask and I will remove this comment, I am not here to try and cause agitation, I was just pointing out the changing landscape and how a release such as Lion, no longer has the impact that such a release would have had perhaps 4-5 years ago. I am not here to declare that Linux on the desktop is beyond these offerings, I am far more realistic and believe more in the fact that its prevalence in other markets (embedded among others) is where the true potential is.
vault_ 15y ago
There's a complete list of new features here: http://www.apple.com/macosx/whats-new/features.html http://www.apple.com/macosx/whats-new/features.html To address the concerns of re-installation, they're including a partition with the system install disk on it (which can get to Time Machine or whatever else you need).
callahad 15y ago
Hallelujah! "OS X Lion [Terminal] includes editable ANSI colors in preferences and support for 256 colors and BCE (background color erase). The default TERM value is xterm-256color." Cite: http://www.apple.com/macosx/whats-new/features.html#unix http://www.apple.com/macosx/whats-new/features.html#unix
- dreamux 15y ago
  Full-screen terminal is [sadly] the only feature I really want in this update.
  - gnok 15y ago
    Does iTerm2 not work for you?
  - motvbi 15y ago
    The update is going to include full-screen terminal.
  - fredoliveira 15y ago
    No love for command+tab number? That alone made me move to iTerm 2.
    - idrinkmusic 15y ago
      Yeah, like it's such a hustle to support shortcuts! Love iTerm too!
    - rane 15y ago
      This is the reason I've always used iTerm, and then moved to iTerm2 a while back.
    - lloeki 15y ago
      The one feature that made me move to iTerm 2 is separate settings for left/right alt keys (resp. meta/system alt). Essential on a French keyboard, where '|' is alt+shift+L and '~' is alt+N, while keeping meta alive.
Groxx 15y ago
>Resize from any edge You can now resize a window from any side or corner. Interesting that they did finally do this. And without adding huge-ass borders to everything...
- anonymoushn 15y ago
  If they added borders to everything, how many pixels do the borders take up? I'll probably avoid the upgrade if there are borders I can't get rid of...
  - Groxx 15y ago
    Other way around. It was a combination of "oh, that's nice, people have been requesting that for years" combined with a bit of snark at Window's ever-increasing border size - which people often defend by saying that you need the borders to resize / know where the edge of the application is. I cry foul, and now I have more ammo :)
jrockway 15y ago
I love the Apple hype cycle: an incremental OS update for $29, and it's one of the most-commented HN articles of the day. I get an incremental OS update every day for free. It's called apt-get. After you've done it every day for nearly 15 years, it gets a little old... What's next, a central Mac software repository? (Oh yeah, "the Mac app store". Innovation!)
deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
ojilles 15y ago
"Auto setup for Gmail and Yahoo! in Mail[.app] When you first log in to your Google, Yahoo!, or AOL accounts in Safari, you’ll have the option to use them with Mail, iCal, Address Book, iChat, and other applications on your Mac." Thats pretty smart to keep Mail.app relevant in the web age! (I hope it handles "guest" logins on the web gracefully though!)
blinkingled 15y ago
Finally high res larger cursor that is crisp. The other updates/features are looking solid too. Well worth the $29.99.
ary 15y ago
After all the talk about delta updates in the keynote I had hoped that Time Machine would be doing file deltas now. A read through the Lion features page doesn't turn anything up. Anyone know?
- thurn 15y ago
  Time Machine has always done deltas (unless I have no idea what you're talking about?)
  - dchest 15y ago
    No, it has hard links to already backed up files, but individual files are not stored as deltas. If you have a big file that changes often, say 4 GB virtual machine image, Time Machine will just copy it every time.
eapen 15y ago
While they are at it, I am surprised Apple didn’t integrate LaunchBar/QuickSilver/Alfred functionality into Lion (and take those guys out). It would go really well with the full screen apps.

207 points by sandipc 15y ago

It will be interesting to see how the OS installs over itself now that it is being distributed through the app store. I wonder if they will create a new partition with the installer and reboot into it.

adamesque 15y ago
Supposedly there are no reboots. No idea how they're managing that.
- fletchowns 15y ago
  Maybe something Ksplice like? http://www.ksplice.com/ http://www.ksplice.com/
  - nkassis 15y ago
    Wouldn't that require it being in the kernel right now?
    - rahoulb 15y ago
      10.6.7 is supposed to be a "prepare for Lion" release
      - masklinn 15y ago
        10.6.8 no? 10.6.7 is the current one.
  - xbryanx 15y ago
    Maybe something like this IS in the kernel right now.
drewcrawford 15y ago
According to [1], Phil Schiller said "no reboots". Any idea how that is accomplished, or was it a misstatement? [1] http://www.engadget.com/2011/06/06/wwdc-2011-liveblog-steve-jobs-talks-ios-5-os-x-lion-icloud-an/?sort=newest&refresh=60 http://www.engadget.com/2011/06/06/wwdc-2011-liveblog-steve-..., Ctrl+F for "reboots"
- wmf 15y ago
  They probably mean no additional reboots; in many OSes first you boot the installer/upgrader, then you install, then you boot the installed OS.
  - rimantas 15y ago
    He said that no reboot from optical disk will be needed to start the installation.
calloc 15y ago
On Unix systems you can replace files on disk without issues because of the way it does reference counting to the underlying file system. Unlike Windows where this is not possible. I am better there is still one single reboot to start up the new kernel and whatnot. Although I can't find any details on it.
- fleitz 15y ago
  The reason why you can replace executables on Unix is because unix loads the entire file before executing where as Windows does not need to do this, hence executables are opened with out FILE_SHARE_DELETE which would allow you to delete the file while it's open on Windows. If you create a file and open it with FILE_SHARE_DELETE you can delete it while it's in use. This has absolutely nothing to do with the underlying file system format and everything to do file semantics as documented in the Win32 API. http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa363858(v=vs.85).aspx http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa363858(v=vs.85).as...
  - minimax 15y ago
    There is no requirement for UNIX to "load the entire file before executing," nor does the deletion of files on disk have anything to do with whether or not a file is executable. Under UNIX, any file which has been opened will be accessible until it is closed, regardless of whether or not the file has been deleted (the number of hard links for the inode drops to zero, in UNIX parlance). For a more technical explanation see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inode http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inode

koenigdavidmj 15y ago

I wonder how much of a wrench in the works that will be for Hackintosh people.

minalecs 15y ago
If you install a valid registered copy of the OS on the hardware, I imagine none. For the people that obtain the OS through not so legal means, then I imagine they'll still be able to get around it as most application on the appstore are obtainable through other means.
- sandipc 15y ago
  technically none of the copies of Mac OS X running on Hackintoshes are "valid" -- Apple's Leopard/Snow Leopard boxes are technically upgrades only, not full installs, even though they work perfectly fine as full installs.
- beck5 15y ago
  I hope your right, but on most small releases 'tinkering' needs to be done to make it work. We will have to wait and see.

config_yml 15y ago

It's only available through the Mac App Store. So how can people upgrade from 10.5 without going the extra step to 10.6, which is required for the app store?

lysol 15y ago
Can't you typically only upgrade to the next revision up? e.g. 10.5 to 10.6
- drewcrawford 15y ago
  Yeah but typically you can grab a disk and do a clean install from 10.0 to 10.5. He's saying that now you have to do a clean install from a disk to get to 10.5, and then MAS 10.5->10.6, which is more work.
- wmf 15y ago
  No, some people used to skip versions to save money. But now that each update is only $30 they can afford to stay current.
pavlov 15y ago
Presumably Apple thinks they should get Lion preinstalled on a new Mac, since 10.5 users are due for a hardware upgrade anyway (from Apple's point of view).
- noarchy 15y ago
  I'm sure that their sales team wants people to think that, regarding hardware ;) On the other hand, regarding jumping from 10.5 to 10.7: would this require the purchase of a Snow Leopard DVD, so that 10.6 would be covered in-between? I'd be curious to know.

furyg3 15y ago

Hmm... so what happens if my hard drive crashes and I replace it myself?

d3fun 15y ago
It tied to your apple account . You can login into app store and install it without having to pay again just like how the current app store works with other apps.
- ugh 15y ago
  Replacement harddrives tend to be empty.
  - MediaBehavior 15y ago
    I know not everybody has an external case, but many of those who replace own HDs do. They can (as I do): Use Carbon Copy Cloner to backup / prepare for system upgrade.
    - ugh 15y ago
      Sure, that’s when you have a working and bootable backup. If you don’t (for example because you are using Time Machine) it’s not really clear what you do. I think Apple has thought of some solution, we just don’t know it yet. It’s an interesting question.
ugh 15y ago
“You bring your Mac to the Apple Store!” is probably the answer Apple would give you. There might also be a way for you to put the installer on some drive. (There currently is one with the Developers Preview. It works just like the dmgs of older OS X discs and you can find it inside the App bundle of the installer you download in the App Store.)
rauljara 15y ago
Interesting question. If you could get the app-store on your computer, you could just redownload the OS (buy once, install on any number of computers). But how do you get the app store on your fresh hard drive? A time machine restore would work, but what if you had no time machine... I wonder if apple will let you burn a dvd with the os once you purchase it. I am worried they might force you to go to an apple store (which would suck if you weren't near one), but who knows. If they don't offer a reasonable solution right now, I suspect they will have to offer one in the near future by force of customer outrage.

mark_l_watson 15y ago

The download only distribution will be a nuisance for 64G SSD MacBook Airs like my wife's laptop. She often only has 5 or 10 GB of free disk space.

Steko 15y ago
Maybe they will be offering something which will free up space on her machine to cloud storage.
rauljara 15y ago
The download is 4 gb.
- troutwine 15y ago
  Surely it will have to unpack itself a bit.
  - sipefree 15y ago
    They said that the update is done in-place and apparently without a reboot.
    - code_duck 15y ago
      The unix style of file locking sure is showing it's advantage over Windows. Not that rebooting for an OS upgrade is too onerous, but using Windows one has to reboot for the most trivial things - Adobe Acrobat, Skype updates and the like.
      - iaskwhy 15y ago
        This has been said many times before but on OSX you actually need to reboot after updating Safari. I'm not 100% sure about iTunes but I believe it still needs a reboot after updating.
        15y ago

follower 15y ago

4GB isn't insignificant in countries with bandwidth caps.

xbryanx 15y ago
The extra bandwidth cost seems like it would be covered in the severely discounted OS price.
- statictype 15y ago
  Cost of the bandwidth is one issue. The amount of time it takes to download is another. I have a 4mbps connection but power cuts and fluctuations makes it difficult to do a 4gb download from Apple. Every upgrade of Xcode is a horror. The download stalls in the middle and then fails to re-continue because the session timed out. I have to end up doing some gymnastics by exporting cookies from the browser to a file and then coaxing wget to use that. I hope they've got a decent pause/resume system on the Mac App Store downloads.
decadentcactus 15y ago
Speaking from Australia, I'll assume that at least iinet will have it on their cap-less servers to download. For example most major Steam games are and don't count against the cap.
- ejdyksen 15y ago
  Interesting...in the case of Steam, does the ISP run that server, or do they just whitelist the Steam server IP?
  - seabee 15y ago
    I know some UK ISPs have their own Steam servers. Some also cache YouTube videos for this purpose, for example.
  - decadentcactus 15y ago
    As far as I know it's the ISP which has a cache of it, so I just download from the local server.

wildmXranat 15y ago

Will they offer a usb stick option for $29 ?

deleted 15y ago

[deleted]

dsplittgerber 15y ago

Anyone else surprised by how many hugely popular apps Apple is going to kill with new Lion/iOS? Instapaper built-into Safari now, all kinds of messanger apps killed by iMessage, some of those photo apps going down the drain as well, Reminders app is a huge one as well. All targeting really popular app categories. Sure, some people care about thing X being done supremely well and will still pay for some apps. But the huge majority will probably be really fine with Apples version.

dongsheng 15y ago

Oh come on apple now we have to do everything through your stores?

noarchy 15y ago
This is not a total change in direction for Apple, just a fleshing out of what they've been wanting to do for a while. Expect more of this in the future, not less.
- ojilles 15y ago
  And seeing how I now first need to order physical disks to upgrade to Snow Leopard in order to get this latest release, I kinda reflect back and wish they had done this sooner :-)
thedeuce 15y ago
If you don't like it don't buy it? What more is there to be said.

tvon 15y ago

dsplittgerber seems to have a valid point, though one that is understood by anyone who has followed Apple for long. Still, unsure why the comment is [dead]. http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2625727 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2625727 To respond, Apple has never had a problem re-implementing a 3rd party app and integrating it into the system, Dashboard is a classic example of this. It's a bit hostile towards 3rd party developers, but generally good for users (at least that's the argument).

recoiledsnake 15y ago

Not sure why below comment is dead. The account seems ok and not hell banned. Was it flagged to death? If so, anyone who flagged it,why? dsplittgerber 24 minutes ago | link [dead] Anyone else surprised by how many hugely popular apps Apple is going to kill with new Lion/iOS? Instapaper built-into Safari now, all kinds of messanger apps killed by iMessage, some of those photo apps going down the drain as well, Reminders app is a huge one as well. All targeting really popular app categories. Sure, some people care about thing X being done supremely well and will still pay for some apps. But the huge majority will probably be really fine with Apples version.

matthew-wegner 15y ago
Compare LockInfo (commercial jailbroken app): http://cdn.techhail.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/LockInfo-Customize-Jailbroken-iPhone-Lockscreen-With-Messages-Calendar-and-Push-Notifications.jpg http://cdn.techhail.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/LockInfo-... With the new notifications: http://photos.macrumorslive.com/p/2011-06-06/f1307382511.jpg http://photos.macrumorslive.com/p/2011-06-06/f1307382511.jpg
- masklinn 15y ago
  I find the general look of the new notifications much closer to MobileNotifier, whose lead dev (Peter Hajas) was just hired by Apple. That's actually the fairest case by far, as they basically "bought" the project through its lead dev.
dsplittgerber 15y ago
I accidentally clicked twice and two identical comments were created. I deleted one. Alas, the other seems to have gone rougue as well.
- code_duck 15y ago
  This has happened to me before - I triple posted, then deleted two comments to find that the remaining one was marked dead. I think HN has duplicate detection and dupes get marked dead automatically, so one should keep this in mind when manually deleting duplicate posts. It's good to wait a few minutes and see whether it's already taken care of.

toomanymike 15y ago

Curious for one of my favorite apps, can anyone comment on BetterTouchTool (http://www.boastr.de/ http://www.boastr.de/) quality on the new build?

ivarv 15y ago
The first part of today's keynote had a strong emphasis on multitouch and gestures being integrated into the OS. As a BTT user myself I'm very curious to see if BTT has been obsoleted by Apple.

recoiledsnake 15y ago

>This isn’t actually the first time Apple has offered an OS upgrade at a steep discount compared to its Windows rival (which typically runs over $100) — Snow Leopard made its debut at $29. A pretty flawed apples to oranges comparison. OS X is more similar to bios updates... you buy the hardware, the vendor makes money off it and gives away the software. With Microsoft, you're paying the OEM money for the hardware(with razor thin margins usually but that's another story), so Microsoft doesn't make bank on expensive hardware and upgrades to RAM/HDD/CPU that Apple makes. Edit: Not to mention that 10.5 to 10.7 is not upgradeable, you have to buy and install 10.6 first, install the App Store and then install 10.7. Windows 7 may not be upgradeable directly from XP without a format, but atleast you don't have to but and upgrade to Vista first!

mgkimsal 15y ago
True, but if Vista was $29 more people might have done it in the first place.
- chrisjsmith 15y ago
  There was so much bad PR, noone would bother. They tried to give corporate customers (select agreement sized ones) free copies and they said no.
  - mgkimsal 15y ago
    They didn't try with me. They didn't try with any of my friends. I think they're trying with the wrong crowd. Interesting side thought here (at least to me). MS has traditionally done very well selling to the larger enterprise market. As the headcount in those orgs go down, will MS' influence drop? Newer people coming in will probably have come from smaller orgs where MS is less prevalent, and when there's overall fewer people at an org, there's fewer people to influence/market to. I tell a lie. I had/have an Ultimate Vista that I won at a local user group raffle. I've installed it, but in virtual machines, which I've lost a couple times. Getting it re set up by going through the 'call up and get reactivated' is always a pain. :(

thomasgerbe 15y ago

Great news. Now if only they just did away with the optical drives on MBP's. I have used mine about... twice in three years since owning my current laptop.

code_duck 15y ago
Absolutely, I'd gladly trade this optical drive, which I've used twice in a year, for two more USB ports. Hard to believe that my $2200 MBP has only two USB ports, which constrains me daily, and my $500 Toshiba has four. If Airs can do without the drive, there's no reason MBPs can't as well. They're running the same OS after all.
- thomasgerbe 15y ago
  Agree. I hear people on MacRumors saying the professional laptop should have the most features (thus, the optical drive) but for me, more USB ports and potentially a second HDD would do more for my day-to-day activities than an optical drive.
matthew-wegner 15y ago
You can put another HD (or SSD) in your optical bay: http://www.mcetech.com/optibay/ http://www.mcetech.com/optibay/ Cheap eBay brackets are ~$20 and accomplish the same thing. There are a couple of caveats--here's everything you need to know: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2493938 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2493938
- thomasgerbe 15y ago
  How is the battery life?
  - matthew-wegner 15y ago
    Seems unchanged for me (I added an SSD, so the existing 7200 RPM HD became a rarely-used media drive). I see ~5.5 hours real-world use on a 15" MBP, and my development environment includes a virtualized XP install.

mortenjorck 15y ago

This App Store-only distribution has me concerned about small business upgrades. Let's say I have an office with 10 workstations. How do I upgrade? Do I have to create an iTunes account for each computer, and enter a company credit card number on each one? Can multiple iTunes accounts even share the same credit card number? Perhaps I could get by with two accounts, since iTunes allows sharing on up to five Macs. But that's still far from an elegant solution, and it doesn't scale any better. And what about users who already have their workstations activated with their home iTunes accounts?

iloveponies 15y ago
Apparently, there will be some sort of netboot option. Although that in itself will require you to have server for the role...
hexley 15y ago
You can "burn" the DMG to a USB key or DVD-ROM.
- wmf 15y ago
  But first he has to figure out how to pay for N copies.
christoph 15y ago
Agree. I use Mac's at exhibitions all over the world. Anything without physical media of some sort (USB/DVD/CD/HDD) is as good as useless to me as often I don't have an internet connection or it's painfully slow.
nettdata 15y ago
Historically you could use OSX Server as a local update/patch server, and have other Mac's on the LAN use it instead of downloading the same stuff again. They say they're making Lion Server free and easily configured, and I'm hoping that they're integrating the App store components as well.
- 15y ago

rythie 15y ago

Title is misleading, $29.99 to zero decimal places is $30 not $29.

tudorizer 15y ago
That's how our whole consumer culture is tricked :)

frou_dh 15y ago

If Lion supports TRIM for all SSDs, I want to zap my Intel drive and do a fresh install so that there are no mystery regions on the drive. I hope a normal DVD will be available on the quiet.

matthew-wegner 15y ago
There is a TRIM Enabler for Snow Leopard: http://www.groths.org/?p=308 http://www.groths.org/?p=308
- frou_dh 15y ago
  Thanks, but unofficial kext patching would knock me out of my I-can-trust-the-machine groove.

deleted 15y ago

[deleted]

iramiller 15y ago

Has anyone seen references to how the server tools will be distributed? The rumor mill had indicated that there would be a mac app store version but I have not seen a confirmation on if these pieces are in the regular 10.7 upgrade or not. The server edition of 10.6 was $500 and distinct from the $29 regular edition so I am expecting a separate paid download to be required...

callahad 15y ago
It's an additional $50, as per http://www.apple.com/macosx/server/ http://www.apple.com/macosx/server/ The upgrade path for existing Server users is Snow Leopard Server to Lion, then Lion to Lion Server.

MatthewPhillips 15y ago

Really wish this was coming out sooner. I plan on getting the Samsung Chromebook on the 16th, which will be my primary "fun" computer. I'll keep my Macbook for development, but I'm not sure I'll use it in the way that these consumer features are meant for. If it was coming on now I'd go ahead and get it just to play around with. Now I don't know.

saturdaysaint 15y ago
"Your Mac must have an Intel Core 2 Duo, Core i3, Core i5, Core i7, or Xeon processor to run Lion. Find out if your current Mac has one of these processors by clicking the Apple icon at the top left of your screen, then choosing About This Mac."

enterneo 15y ago

any news on whether it is for 64-bit processors ONLY? my core-solo mac mini wants to know :-S

SnowLprd 15y ago
According to Apple, your Mini isn't supported under Lion: "Your Mac must have an Intel Core 2 Duo, Core i3, Core i5, Core i7, or Xeon processor to run Lion." I have a Core Duo-powered Mini and am in the same boat. That said, my Mini is at least five years old, and I don't think it's at all unreasonable for Apple to focus their limited resources on more modern machines. Besides, my Mini is running Tiger in a data center, so I'm not losing any sleep over not being to run full-screen apps on it. ;)
- jrockway 15y ago
  Incidentally, pretty much any Linux distribution will support your slightly-older Mac Mini as though it were brand new.
orangecat 15y ago
Lion is 64-bit only. Although the early minis have socketed CPUs, so you could theoretically replace it with a Core 2: http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/systems/mac_mini_core_2_duo_swaps.html http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/systems/mac_mini_core_2_duo_swaps...
- enterneo 15y ago
  oh! good to know!
thelibrarian 15y ago
Yes, it is 64 bit only - Core 2 Duo or newer required.

Newky 15y ago

I don't mean to be off topic, but I really feel, although this is an improvement on the price of Windows upgrade, I think that there is nothing in this release that would drive me off any Linux, particularly a rolling release distribution. I know that for certain fields, such as multimedia, apple offers a lot, but with new offerings such as Gnome 3, a mature KDE 4, and Ubuntu's unity, for the standard desktop user or developer for that matter, I argue that Linux should enthrall and for one of the first times the difference in price tag isn't the only plus. Stability, Safety and polish are quickly becoming relevant keywords for Linux desktops. Although the new Unity and Gnome Shell may lack the stability, you can always fall back on the watertight Gnome default desktop.

danielrhodes 15y ago
No.
- Newky 15y ago
  Sorry that you didn't find that relevant.
astrange 15y ago
Would you say this is the year of Linux on the desktop?
- Newky 15y ago
  No, please just ask and I will remove this comment, I am not here to try and cause agitation, I was just pointing out the changing landscape and how a release such as Lion, no longer has the impact that such a release would have had perhaps 4-5 years ago. I am not here to declare that Linux on the desktop is beyond these offerings, I am far more realistic and believe more in the fact that its prevalence in other markets (embedded among others) is where the true potential is.

vault_ 15y ago

There's a complete list of new features here: http://www.apple.com/macosx/whats-new/features.html http://www.apple.com/macosx/whats-new/features.html To address the concerns of re-installation, they're including a partition with the system install disk on it (which can get to Time Machine or whatever else you need).

callahad 15y ago

Hallelujah! "OS X Lion [Terminal] includes editable ANSI colors in preferences and support for 256 colors and BCE (background color erase). The default TERM value is xterm-256color." Cite: http://www.apple.com/macosx/whats-new/features.html#unix http://www.apple.com/macosx/whats-new/features.html#unix

dreamux 15y ago
Full-screen terminal is [sadly] the only feature I really want in this update.
- gnok 15y ago
  Does iTerm2 not work for you?
- motvbi 15y ago
  The update is going to include full-screen terminal.
- fredoliveira 15y ago
  No love for command+tab number? That alone made me move to iTerm 2.
  - idrinkmusic 15y ago
    Yeah, like it's such a hustle to support shortcuts! Love iTerm too!
  - rane 15y ago
    This is the reason I've always used iTerm, and then moved to iTerm2 a while back.
  - lloeki 15y ago
    The one feature that made me move to iTerm 2 is separate settings for left/right alt keys (resp. meta/system alt). Essential on a French keyboard, where '|' is alt+shift+L and '~' is alt+N, while keeping meta alive.

Groxx 15y ago

>Resize from any edge You can now resize a window from any side or corner. Interesting that they did finally do this. And without adding huge-ass borders to everything...

anonymoushn 15y ago
If they added borders to everything, how many pixels do the borders take up? I'll probably avoid the upgrade if there are borders I can't get rid of...
- Groxx 15y ago
  Other way around. It was a combination of "oh, that's nice, people have been requesting that for years" combined with a bit of snark at Window's ever-increasing border size - which people often defend by saying that you need the borders to resize / know where the edge of the application is. I cry foul, and now I have more ammo :)

jrockway 15y ago

I love the Apple hype cycle: an incremental OS update for $29, and it's one of the most-commented HN articles of the day. I get an incremental OS update every day for free. It's called apt-get. After you've done it every day for nearly 15 years, it gets a little old... What's next, a central Mac software repository? (Oh yeah, "the Mac app store". Innovation!)

deleted 15y ago

[deleted]

ojilles 15y ago

"Auto setup for Gmail and Yahoo! in Mail[.app] When you first log in to your Google, Yahoo!, or AOL accounts in Safari, you’ll have the option to use them with Mail, iCal, Address Book, iChat, and other applications on your Mac." Thats pretty smart to keep Mail.app relevant in the web age! (I hope it handles "guest" logins on the web gracefully though!)

blinkingled 15y ago

Finally high res larger cursor that is crisp. The other updates/features are looking solid too. Well worth the $29.99.

ary 15y ago

After all the talk about delta updates in the keynote I had hoped that Time Machine would be doing file deltas now. A read through the Lion features page doesn't turn anything up. Anyone know?

thurn 15y ago
Time Machine has always done deltas (unless I have no idea what you're talking about?)
- dchest 15y ago
  No, it has hard links to already backed up files, but individual files are not stored as deltas. If you have a big file that changes often, say 4 GB virtual machine image, Time Machine will just copy it every time.

eapen 15y ago

While they are at it, I am surprised Apple didn’t integrate LaunchBar/QuickSilver/Alfred functionality into Lion (and take those guys out). It would go really well with the full screen apps.