8 ms·

Interesting that the parliament went ahead with a vote, from which the 'leadership' (cabinet) abstained; I wonder what's going on behind the scenes. >"Prime Mi

by nickff 6y ago

Interesting that the parliament went ahead with a vote, from which the 'leadership' (cabinet) abstained; I wonder what's going on behind the scenes. >"Prime Minister Justin Trudeau and almost all of his cabinet colleagues were absent for the vote. Foreign Affairs Minister Marc Garneau was the only cabinet minister present. When it was his turn, he said he abstained "on behalf of the Government of Canada." "

abhinav22 6y ago
Very strange - does it mean they are not serious about it?
- ipnon 6y ago
  The government is officially reprimanding the act but they personally shield themselves from backlash. Win-win, cake and eat it too, etc. Every politician does this (because the ones that don't fail to remain politicians for long).
vkou 6y ago
Nothing interesting is going on behind the scenes. 1. The Liberals hold a minority government, and whipping the entire party rank and file into voting against the motion would not prevent it from passing. 2. The cabinet doesn't want to piss China off, and doesn't want to give their opponents ammunition (by voting against the motion), so it didn't show up to the vote. 3. This provides the cabinet with freedom of action, to quietly apologize to China in private, while not looking bad domestically. Or, alternatively, if world sentiment supports this position, and other parliaments and governments follow suit, this gives them the option to come out in support of this condemnation. 4. This will make a few rounds in the news cycle, maybe result in a small adjustment in foreign policy, but will not result in a major political shift in Canada. tl;dr - the opposition is hammering the Liberal Cabinet on the morality of this issue, the rank-and-file Liberals go along with it, because they either have a conscience, or don't want to lose elections, while the Cabinet is playing Realpolitik. For Americans, you can think of the Cabinet as the executive branch of government - closer in powers to the President, and their subordinate agencies. But unlike a President, the Cabinet, and the Prime Minister [1] can be removed by a 50/50 vote in Parliament. [1] The Prime Minister in particular can also be removed by a 50/50 vote of their own party.
- ygjb 6y ago
  It's also worth noting that China doesn't even need to pursue tariffs; they can simply leverage the China-Canada FIPA to sue the Canadian government for damaging Chinese business interests in Canada based on legislation passed by the opposition while they were in power.
  - refurb 6y ago
    Take a look at what they did to Australia. No tribunal needed. Just hold up perishable imports for more detailed “inspections” until they spoil.
OwlsParlay 6y ago
These types of moves are usually not looked upon favourably by China, and might risk the fate of the two Michaels (who were locked up in retailation for Meng Wanzhou's arrest).
bryanlarsen 6y ago
If they didn't abstain, China would likely respond with tariffs, costing Canada billions. They're also worried about the two Michaels, a couple of Canadians imprisoned in China that have been used as political pawns for the past few years.
- loceng 6y ago
  Indeed, the response to the CCP must be multi-lateral to soften the blow for all involved nations.
- dgudkov 6y ago
  >costing Canada billions Sometimes you can't have both principles and profit at the same time.
saeranv 6y ago
I'm a huge Liberal supporter, but am disappointed by Trudeau's decision on this. I never thought I'd say this, but good for the Tories. The most generous interpretation I've heard is that Trudeau's government is currently engaged in highly sensitive talks with China regarding captured Canadians and couldn't afford to take a stance on this. Canada is part of the core UN group about to present a resolution in the UNHCR on human rights violations in Sri Lanka soon and I hope the government shows more spine.
- reducesuffering 6y ago
  See the other comment https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26254381 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26254381 It's obvious realpolitik, the actual hard decisions that have to be made in politics.
  - saeranv 6y ago
    Fair, but I don't think their decision ended up on the right side of history.
- triceratops 6y ago
  See: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26254997 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26254997
908B64B197 6y ago
Not surprising. The Trudeau family has always supported dictatorships, such as the Castro regime in Cuba. The son even went as far as calling Fidel "larger than life leader who served his people" [0] [0] https://www.cnn.com/2016/11/27/world/justin-trudeau-castro-eulogy-parody/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2016/11/27/world/justin-trudeau-castro-e...
- 99_00 6y ago
  Pierre Trudeau, Justin Trudeau (18), and Alexandre Trudeau (16) had a vacation in China 1 year after the Tiananmen Square Massacre https://www.thestar.com/news/world/2016/09/16/trudeaus-in-tiananmen-canadas-first-family-goes-back-to-china.html https://www.thestar.com/news/world/2016/09/16/trudeaus-in-ti...
- breitling 6y ago
  Don't forget, Justin said he admires China
  - 29083011397778 6y ago
    Considering how easy it is to take quotes out of context, your comment that doesn't provide a source, a direct quote, or context only really serves to start a flamewar. Perhaps this type of rhetoric should stay on Reddit and Facebook.
- pletsch 6y ago
  Not going on either side here but for what it's worth, Cuba is viewed differently in Canada vs the US
- refurb 6y ago
  Canada remained quite cozy with Cuba despite the US position. As a Canadian it always felt a little questionable. Cuba was always a major vacation spot for Canadians and the foreign currency they brought it certainly helped prop up the regimen.
ygjb 6y ago
It's pretty straightforward; from 2012-2015 the previous government, led by Stephen Harper (Prime Minister), and in partnership with Erin O'Toole (at the time Parliamentary Secretary with oversight over International Trade) negotiated a trade agreement with China [1]. Under this treaty, if the Canadian government takes actions that damage or undermine Chinese investment in Canada, then Chinese companies can sue Canada in a tribunal that is separate from both Canadian and Chinese court systems; these tribunals have broad authority to mark the findings as confidential, keeping the rulings and outcomes, including financial penalties secret. The duration of the trade agreement is 31 years. If Trudeau and his Cabinet had endorsed this motion, it would have been a tacit attack on China, and grounds for Canada to be sued under this treaty, with virtually no defense. Naturally, Erin O'Toole (the current leader of the opposition party in Canada) is aware of this, and the easy political points he can score by attacking Trudeau for failing to support this policy, since he had a direct hand in promoting and passing the legislation. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada-China_Promotion_and_Reciprocal_Protection_of_Investments_Agreement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada-China_Promotion_and_Rec...
- dleslie 6y ago
  I wish more Canadians were aware of this. It's easily the worst trade agreement we've signed in generations. Harper _really_ screwed us over.
- 1MachineElf 6y ago
  Sounds like somewhat the TPP. I wonder what in the trade agreement made this a worthwhile compromise.
  - dleslie 6y ago
    It basically ensured that Canada could do little to stymie resource exploitation projects that receive Chinese investment funds; this is a boon to Albertan/Saskatchewan oil companies, and BC coal companies.
- CogitoCogito 6y ago
  After reading that wiki article (i.e. not the actual treaty), it seems like any argument that Canada’s vote harms profitability of Chinese companies could be flipped around just as effectively. China’s restrictions harm Canadian media companies. So I don’t see why Canada should be all that worried about passing this law. I think it’s more likely just straight politics as usual. Trudeau might very well have done the same thing without the restrictions of the treaty.

by nickff 6y ago

abhinav22 6y ago

Very strange - does it mean they are not serious about it?

ipnon 6y ago
The government is officially reprimanding the act but they personally shield themselves from backlash. Win-win, cake and eat it too, etc. Every politician does this (because the ones that don't fail to remain politicians for long).

vkou 6y ago

Nothing interesting is going on behind the scenes. 1. The Liberals hold a minority government, and whipping the entire party rank and file into voting against the motion would not prevent it from passing. 2. The cabinet doesn't want to piss China off, and doesn't want to give their opponents ammunition (by voting against the motion), so it didn't show up to the vote. 3. This provides the cabinet with freedom of action, to quietly apologize to China in private, while not looking bad domestically. Or, alternatively, if world sentiment supports this position, and other parliaments and governments follow suit, this gives them the option to come out in support of this condemnation. 4. This will make a few rounds in the news cycle, maybe result in a small adjustment in foreign policy, but will not result in a major political shift in Canada. tl;dr - the opposition is hammering the Liberal Cabinet on the morality of this issue, the rank-and-file Liberals go along with it, because they either have a conscience, or don't want to lose elections, while the Cabinet is playing Realpolitik. For Americans, you can think of the Cabinet as the executive branch of government - closer in powers to the President, and their subordinate agencies. But unlike a President, the Cabinet, and the Prime Minister [1] can be removed by a 50/50 vote in Parliament. [1] The Prime Minister in particular can also be removed by a 50/50 vote of their own party.

ygjb 6y ago
It's also worth noting that China doesn't even need to pursue tariffs; they can simply leverage the China-Canada FIPA to sue the Canadian government for damaging Chinese business interests in Canada based on legislation passed by the opposition while they were in power.
- refurb 6y ago
  Take a look at what they did to Australia. No tribunal needed. Just hold up perishable imports for more detailed “inspections” until they spoil.

OwlsParlay 6y ago

These types of moves are usually not looked upon favourably by China, and might risk the fate of the two Michaels (who were locked up in retailation for Meng Wanzhou's arrest).

bryanlarsen 6y ago

If they didn't abstain, China would likely respond with tariffs, costing Canada billions. They're also worried about the two Michaels, a couple of Canadians imprisoned in China that have been used as political pawns for the past few years.

loceng 6y ago
Indeed, the response to the CCP must be multi-lateral to soften the blow for all involved nations.
dgudkov 6y ago
>costing Canada billions Sometimes you can't have both principles and profit at the same time.

saeranv 6y ago

I'm a huge Liberal supporter, but am disappointed by Trudeau's decision on this. I never thought I'd say this, but good for the Tories. The most generous interpretation I've heard is that Trudeau's government is currently engaged in highly sensitive talks with China regarding captured Canadians and couldn't afford to take a stance on this. Canada is part of the core UN group about to present a resolution in the UNHCR on human rights violations in Sri Lanka soon and I hope the government shows more spine.

reducesuffering 6y ago
See the other comment https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26254381 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26254381 It's obvious realpolitik, the actual hard decisions that have to be made in politics.
- saeranv 6y ago
  Fair, but I don't think their decision ended up on the right side of history.
triceratops 6y ago
See: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26254997 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26254997

908B64B197 6y ago

Not surprising. The Trudeau family has always supported dictatorships, such as the Castro regime in Cuba. The son even went as far as calling Fidel "larger than life leader who served his people" [0] [0] https://www.cnn.com/2016/11/27/world/justin-trudeau-castro-eulogy-parody/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2016/11/27/world/justin-trudeau-castro-e...

99_00 6y ago
Pierre Trudeau, Justin Trudeau (18), and Alexandre Trudeau (16) had a vacation in China 1 year after the Tiananmen Square Massacre https://www.thestar.com/news/world/2016/09/16/trudeaus-in-tiananmen-canadas-first-family-goes-back-to-china.html https://www.thestar.com/news/world/2016/09/16/trudeaus-in-ti...
breitling 6y ago
Don't forget, Justin said he admires China
- 29083011397778 6y ago
  Considering how easy it is to take quotes out of context, your comment that doesn't provide a source, a direct quote, or context only really serves to start a flamewar. Perhaps this type of rhetoric should stay on Reddit and Facebook.
pletsch 6y ago
Not going on either side here but for what it's worth, Cuba is viewed differently in Canada vs the US
refurb 6y ago
Canada remained quite cozy with Cuba despite the US position. As a Canadian it always felt a little questionable. Cuba was always a major vacation spot for Canadians and the foreign currency they brought it certainly helped prop up the regimen.

ygjb 6y ago

It's pretty straightforward; from 2012-2015 the previous government, led by Stephen Harper (Prime Minister), and in partnership with Erin O'Toole (at the time Parliamentary Secretary with oversight over International Trade) negotiated a trade agreement with China [1]. Under this treaty, if the Canadian government takes actions that damage or undermine Chinese investment in Canada, then Chinese companies can sue Canada in a tribunal that is separate from both Canadian and Chinese court systems; these tribunals have broad authority to mark the findings as confidential, keeping the rulings and outcomes, including financial penalties secret. The duration of the trade agreement is 31 years. If Trudeau and his Cabinet had endorsed this motion, it would have been a tacit attack on China, and grounds for Canada to be sued under this treaty, with virtually no defense. Naturally, Erin O'Toole (the current leader of the opposition party in Canada) is aware of this, and the easy political points he can score by attacking Trudeau for failing to support this policy, since he had a direct hand in promoting and passing the legislation. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada-China_Promotion_and_Reciprocal_Protection_of_Investments_Agreement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada-China_Promotion_and_Rec...

dleslie 6y ago
I wish more Canadians were aware of this. It's easily the worst trade agreement we've signed in generations. Harper _really_ screwed us over.
1MachineElf 6y ago
Sounds like somewhat the TPP. I wonder what in the trade agreement made this a worthwhile compromise.
- dleslie 6y ago
  It basically ensured that Canada could do little to stymie resource exploitation projects that receive Chinese investment funds; this is a boon to Albertan/Saskatchewan oil companies, and BC coal companies.
CogitoCogito 6y ago
After reading that wiki article (i.e. not the actual treaty), it seems like any argument that Canada’s vote harms profitability of Chinese companies could be flipped around just as effectively. China’s restrictions harm Canadian media companies. So I don’t see why Canada should be all that worried about passing this law. I think it’s more likely just straight politics as usual. Trudeau might very well have done the same thing without the restrictions of the treaty.