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Canada's parliament votes to label China's persecution of Uighurs as genocide
- abhinav22 6y agoGood to see a stand being taken. Hopefully allows for more pressure put on China to be more humane. Also I think there is too much us vs China going around - another war would be terrible, and even without a war, negative consequences could arise. One world should be the dream we aspire for.
- medium_burrito 6y agoFinally peace in our time!
- AnimalMuppet 6y agoIf we aspire to one world, and that one world is going to be persecuting minorities, who's going to stand up and tell the whole world that it's doing it wrong?
- wcarss 6y agoNot snark: in the ideal case, that would be the people.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- federona 6y agoThere is no way to avoid another Cold War. A hot war is impossible. I am glad that the Soviet Union ceased to exist. I will be glad with China being contained. I will also be glad in a multi-lateral world where America does not go unchecked and can be held up by others to its ideals.
- cbozeman 6y agoA hot war is most certainly not impossible. Just because nuclear weapons might be off the table doesn't mean conventional bombs aren't. And frankly, even nuclear weapons might not be off the table fully. Desperation leads people to do strange things. China really is a sort of "early 1900s Germany" stage, which is rather frightening.
- federona 6y agoChina is in some ways like pre-WWI Germany in that it does not have an empire and everyone else does so it wants one to. But Chinese are not starving due to sanctions and have not lost a war, etc. Chinese are doing well. China is just flexing its muscle because it can. That is all. Not because it needs to or that it's people are psychologically in fascism mode.
- redis_mlc 6y agoWhat you wrote demonstrates a superficial understanding. > But Chinese are not starving due to sanctions They are starving due to natural (floods and locusts) and manmade (dams) disasters. Pre-corona, China imported 30% of its food, and today it's over 50%. Mining their few harbors would starve half of their population to death in 6 months. China has basically no welfare programs for non-CCP citizens. If Trump's policies are continued by Biden, China will also suffer financially and technology-wise. Trump's policies would have crumbled China in 4-8 years. > Not because it needs to or that it's people are psychologically in fascism mode. The CCP has to flex because of ideology. It has been in a quiet war with the US since Mao in the 1950's, and it needs to usurp and destroy the US to maintain absolute hold on power - there cannot be an alternative for people to compare to the CCP in their minds. That means an invasion of Taiwan ASAP and war with the US after that (China has more military ships now than the US, which is a certain sign of preparation for war.)
- dmix 6y agoBingo, comfortable upwardly mobile populations aren’t too friendly to any sort of serious war. Let alone total A majority in an agitated state that is being repressed or prodded (realistically or not) by other power blocs is what is worrying. Even ideological extremism most just happens locally. Like the Russian socialist Revolutions and countless jihads.
- jonathannat 6y agoChina poses several of the biggest threats to humanity - infectious disease: China has released infectious disease time after time: bird flu, SARS, covid that has killed millions around the world - climate change: China, leader in coal production by large amount, ramping up even more coal factories in 2020 https://thecoalhub.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Coal-Production.jpeg https://thecoalhub.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Coal-Produ... - world war: on its way to Hitler Germany's nationalistic dictatorship. with concentration camps for its minority, threatened invasion to Taiwan, an independent democratic country, conflicts and threats with most democratic countries around the world, man-made islands, capacity to ramp up military production. We need to stop contributing cash to China. Stop buying from China. Apple is moving away from China fast. Biden just signed an order for China-free technology supply chain. Factories are moving faster out of China.
- stanislavb 6y agoTotally! I’ve been avoiding “Made in China” products for the last 3 years. I’m always looking for alternatives. Yet, there are cases when there aren’t ... but still, in most of the time there are.
- neolog 6y agoIf you buy from another country, that country will need to burn fuel to make your products.
- jonathannat 6y agonot all countries run mostly on coal. before you say "but then we won't have enough production" good, maybe we should create less things based on coal. we have item shortages now, and the world hasn't ended.
- inglor_cz 6y agoOne of our dirty secrets is that we in the West improved our own local environment by shipping off all the polluting industries to somewhere else, preferably overseas. While all of your points are valid and I believe we should stop being deferential to China (including on topics like Taiwan), their pollution is our pollution, too, at least partly so.
- president 6y agoThe war has been waged for decades already and the west has already lost. This was a war fought with information, influence, and economic warfare. When you think about all the things you need to secure and defend one's country (e.g. PPE, pharmaceuticals, rare-earth minerals, manufacturing supply chains, patriotism, jobs, economic growth, geopolitical soft/hard power), you realize that China has all these things and America has none and is stuck battling itself over nonsense domestic issues.
- Dirlewanger 6y agoWe're in the beginnings of a new Cold War with China, and we're not winning.
- Panino 6y ago> The final tally was 266 in favour and zero opposed. Great news and I hope more countries follow the lead.
- gruez 6y agoConsidering there are 338 seats in total, that's still 72 people who abstained.
- nickff 6y agoInteresting that the parliament went ahead with a vote, from which the 'leadership' (cabinet) abstained; I wonder what's going on behind the scenes. >"Prime Minister Justin Trudeau and almost all of his cabinet colleagues were absent for the vote. Foreign Affairs Minister Marc Garneau was the only cabinet minister present. When it was his turn, he said he abstained "on behalf of the Government of Canada." "
- abhinav22 6y agoVery strange - does it mean they are not serious about it?
- ipnon 6y agoThe government is officially reprimanding the act but they personally shield themselves from backlash. Win-win, cake and eat it too, etc. Every politician does this (because the ones that don't fail to remain politicians for long).
- vkou 6y agoNothing interesting is going on behind the scenes. 1. The Liberals hold a minority government, and whipping the entire party rank and file into voting against the motion would not prevent it from passing. 2. The cabinet doesn't want to piss China off, and doesn't want to give their opponents ammunition (by voting against the motion), so it didn't show up to the vote. 3. This provides the cabinet with freedom of action, to quietly apologize to China in private, while not looking bad domestically. Or, alternatively, if world sentiment supports this position, and other parliaments and governments follow suit, this gives them the option to come out in support of this condemnation. 4. This will make a few rounds in the news cycle, maybe result in a small adjustment in foreign policy, but will not result in a major political shift in Canada. tl;dr - the opposition is hammering the Liberal Cabinet on the morality of this issue, the rank-and-file Liberals go along with it, because they either have a conscience, or don't want to lose elections, while the Cabinet is playing Realpolitik. For Americans, you can think of the Cabinet as the executive branch of government - closer in powers to the President, and their subordinate agencies. But unlike a President, the Cabinet, and the Prime Minister [1] can be removed by a 50/50 vote in Parliament. [1] The Prime Minister in particular can also be removed by a 50/50 vote of their own party.
- mito88 6y agohttps://www.economist.com/leaders/2021/02/13/genocide-is-the-wrong-word-for-the-horrors-of-xinjiang https://www.economist.com/leaders/2021/02/13/genocide-is-the...
- AnimalMuppet 6y agoPaywalled for me. Can you give us the gist of it?
- dleslie 6y agoTLDR: The Economist tries to argue that without death camps there is no genocide; which is false.
- jcranmer 6y agoIt's slightly more nuanced, arguing that referring to such scenarios as genocide lessens the impact of the term for the more murderous forms of genocide. I don't agree with that viewpoint at all. Both forms are vehemently barbarous, and the world has enough problems with genocide denialism that engaging in technical arguments over the definition is only going to give more cover to denialists.
- dleslie 6y agoIt's the correct word if Canada is to apply the definition on others that it applies upon itself.
- kareemm 6y agoThis is largely a (smart) political move by the opposition right-wing party. Canada is embroiled in a political issue with China right now. They're holding a Huawei exec named Meng Wanzhou at the request of the US, who are investigating Huawei for violating sanctions against China[1]. China retaliated by arresting two Canadians without apparent cause[2]. They're been in jail for two years. The Conservative party put forth this motion for a vote as a move to put Trudeau's Liberal government in an awkward place: they would either condemn China's treatment of the Uighurs and make the Michaels/Meng Wanzhou situation more painful, or they wouldn't and would appear to condone genocide. FWIW I suspect Trudeau and the Liberal party do believe Uighur treatment to be genocide (I do). But stating it publicly would make life even more difficult for them. 1- https://www.bbc.com/news/business-46462858 https://www.bbc.com/news/business-46462858 2- https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/two-michaels-mark-two-jailed-years-in-china-no-development-in-their-cases-1.5225036 https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/two-michaels-mark-two-jailed-y...
- dleslie 6y agoIt's supported by the NDP, Greens, and Bloc as well. In fact, it was all Yay and Abstains.
- reducesuffering 6y agoNone of those parties are the Cabinet, the face of Canada on the international stage, and the one China is looking at.
- dleslie 6y agoAFAICT from the way that China's diplomats engage with Canada, they don't seem to understand how Canada operates. While the PMO is powerful, it's not able to dictate how the judiciary operates or pass legislation without house/senate approval. OIC notwithstanding, I guess. ;)
- gruez 6y ago>it was all Yay and Abstains. not surprising. Voting nay would be political suicide.
- 99_00 6y agoWhat's Biden's position on this issue?
- eschulz 6y agoIt's a little hard to say, although he specifically addressed the matter last week at a town hall meeting https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JptyShvF2E8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JptyShvF2E8
- 99_00 6y agoThis needs followup from the press and clarification.
- reedjosh 6y ago"I point out to him no American president can be sustained as a president if he doesn’t reflect the values of the United States, and so the idea I’m not going to speak out against what he’s doing in Hong Kong, what he’s doing with the Uighurs in western mountains of China, and Taiwan, trying to end the One China policy by making it forceful … I said, and, by the, he said, he – he gets it. Culturally there are different norms that each country and their leaders are expected to follow." My original thought: Wow... Biden's stance is essentially it's a cultural difference. I think I may have misinterpreted. I didn't originally catch "and so the idea I’m not going" Edited for correctness. Thanks for others who posted the full quote. I couldn't pull it well from quickly listening to the vid.
- thereare5lights 6y ago> Wow... Biden's stance is essentially it's a cultural difference. This is a prime example of how taking specific cuts of quotes can lead to wildly misleading conclusions. This is what he actually said: "I point out to him no American president can be sustained as a president if he doesn’t reflect the values of the United States, and so the idea I’m not going to speak out against what he’s doing in Hong Kong, what he’s doing with the Uighurs in western mountains of China, and Taiwan, trying to end the One China policy by making it forceful … I said, and, by the, he said, he – he gets it. Culturally there are different norms that each country and their leaders are expected to follow." And as you can see, he's saying that as POTUS, he must speak out against it because he is POTUS; that the US has different cultural norms than China and that we don't condone these things.
- thesimon 6y agoI am not sure what term is apporopiate for the horrific treatment, but I found the Economist's point quite valid. > By the common understanding of the word, it is not. Just as “homicide” means killing a person and “suicide” means killing yourself, “genocide” means killing a people. China’s persecution of the Uyghurs is horrific: it has locked up perhaps 1m of them in prison camps, which it naturally mislabels “vocational training centres”. It has forcibly sterilised some Uyghur women. But it is not slaughtering them. [...] > By accusing it of genocide instead, in the absence of mass murder, America is diminishing the unique stigma of the term. Genocide should put a government beyond the pale; yet American officials will keep doing business with the regime they have branded genocidal. Future genocidaires will take comfort
- capableweb 6y agoI don't think there is any strict consensus that genocide is only about slaughtering people as in murder/killing. Sterilisation and making their living conditions worse than others in order to kill their culture and ethnicity can also be considered genocide, as the ultimate goal is to erase them. In this case it just happens slowly in training centers, work camps and prisons. In the larger picture I agree with you however. If you give someone that label there is only one stance that would be acceptable and it would have to be a strong one, otherwise you are diminishing the importance of the word.
- dleslie 6y agoThat's not valid; genocide is not simply death camps, it can be the purposeful and systematic erasure of a culture.
- meowing 6y agoI took a course on this, and part of it was just arriving at a definition. One way to think about it is literally the name - genocide is anything that prevents future generations of that culture or population
- AlexandrB 6y ago> It has forcibly sterilised some Uyghur women. I think the Economist is being pedantic. The above, applied broadly, would "kill a people" within one generation.
- aaomidi 6y agoThen cut business ties with them and sanction any country that continues doing business with China. Just calling it genocide and not doing anything about it really weakens what the term means.
- user764743 6y agoMeanwhile at home, Canada tortures people. [1] [1] https://www.vice.com/en/article/93wj78/canada-is-torturing-inmates-with-solitary-confinement-study-says https://www.vice.com/en/article/93wj78/canada-is-torturing-i...
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- omginternets 6y agoIf you can't see the difference between this and what's happening in China, I don't know what to tell you. We can agree that solitary confinement is also bad, and still think that China's treatment of Uighurs is much, much worse. Your whatabboutism is not helpful. Nor is it original, deep or interesting, to be frank.
- ygjb 6y agoYes. This is a problem, and folks in Canada are working to hold our government to task for it, in the same way we are working to hold our government to task for other bad acts. I am not sure what point you are trying to make?
- RcouF1uZ4gsC 6y agoThere is a big danger in labeling it genocide: what are you going to do about it? If you label it genocide, and continue doing business as usual apart from some strongly worded letters, you are in effect saying that "genocide" is not a big deal.
- DFHippie 6y agoThis is false and China obviously considers it so, otherwise they wouldn't apply so much political and economic pressure on countries simply to prevent them from calling their treatment of the Uighurs genocide. And they aren't alone: Turkey behaves the same way.
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- dominotw 6y agowhat happens next? Wouldn't this now imply canadians are now open to doing business with genocidal govt?
- TheCapn 6y agoWe continue to sell military equipment to Saudi Arabia despite objections to their actions in Yemen. A lot of what our gov't does is very ceremonial with no teeth
- dominotw 6y ago> We continue to sell military equipment to Saudi Arabia despite objections to their actions in Yemen. But we never declared it a genocide. Isn't a big difference, otherwise why would this even be news worthy.
- sleepysysadmin 6y agoThe liberals abstained but the far left like the NDP and Greens and the centrist conservative party all voted in favour. Overall, they would be included in voting in favour but abstaining was just politics. I think the reality is that it's not really genocide. It's not a holocaust in that sense. Rather than genocide, the reality is that it's Gulags. Communism basically can't function without some sort of forced labour. Vietnam has their "Rehab concentration camps", USSR had the gulags, North Korea has their concentration camps: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pukchang_concentration_camp https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pukchang_concentration_camp It's not genocide exactly. The problem is that China can't give up their concentration camps.
- tibbydudeza 6y agoGenocide is a bit of a hyperbole if you looked at what happened to the Jews/Cambodia under Pol Pot/Rwanda Tutsi's and Armenians. It would call it forced cultural assimilation by taking away their religion , language and culture and making them conform to the dominant Han culture.
- dvduval 6y agoThey have been relocating Uighurs to different parts of China. I've talked to a number of different friends who live in China about this. So it seems that at the end of the re-education, they reintroduced them at other locations so it likely limits their ability to organize. because I've been studying Chinese and speaking with Chinese people online for the last few years, I've also met quite a few Uighurs who were studying English. They are fluent in Chinese plus a couple of other languages, and as best as I can tell, I have been reintroduced as they say. This is not a topic I was able to discuss with them, but they seems like nice people that were living a decent life. Now what happened in the past and maybe what still continues to happen in these camps is surely something that will be discussed for years, and China will have a better reputation. I just study what's happening and I'm hoping that there will be some good that comes out of it too.
- bigpumpkin 6y agoSo are they going to boycott the 2022 Beijing Olympics? Are they also going to stop exporting agricultural products to China? Talk is cheap.
- TT3351 6y agoWhere's the line between the Chinese population and the Party's indefensible acts? Will more expensive food in China help to resolve this [or are Canadian ag exports re-exported]? I say this because I'm not convinced sanctions have been effective in cases like Cuba, Iran, etc
- throw373782 6y agoSome alternative viewpoints from independent journalists: https://twitter.com/MsAmyMacPherson/status/1364004227983544324 https://twitter.com/MsAmyMacPherson/status/13640042279835443... https://thegrayzone.com/2021/02/18/us-media-reports-chinese-genocide-relied-on-fraudulent-far-right-researcher/ https://thegrayzone.com/2021/02/18/us-media-reports-chinese-... https://thegrayzone.com/2019/12/21/china-detaining-millions-uyghurs-problems-claims-us-ngo-researcher/ https://thegrayzone.com/2019/12/21/china-detaining-millions-... https://thegrayzone.com/2020/03/26/forced-labor-china-us-nato-arms-industry-cold-war/ https://thegrayzone.com/2020/03/26/forced-labor-china-us-nat... (Before dismissing the Greyzone, please note that they have many primary sources in their research that you can verify yourself). Recently this month, there has been a campaign by Uyghurs (mostly on Chinese social media) pushing back against the charge of “genocide” by US politicians and Western media. Some of them are even laughing at the absurdity of it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kiuj9FiI0tc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kiuj9FiI0tc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7kgmeacL-0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7kgmeacL-0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjV4UgnG_v8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjV4UgnG_v8 Americans were sold a great big lie about WMDs in Iraq and babies being thrown out of incubators in Kuwait before that [0]. These are just two examples out of many. The US is not, and has never been, above using these kinds of propaganda tactics [1] to achieve its goals. HN readers need to understand that it’s naive to take things at face value when geopolitics are involved. Don’t let them manipulate your compassion for their own sordid ends. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nayirah_testimony https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nayirah_testimony [1] https://foreignpolicy.com/2013/07/14/u-s-repeals-propaganda-ban-spreads-government-made-news-to-americans/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2013/07/14/u-s-repeals-propaganda-...
- duxup 6y ago>Uyghurs (mostly on Chinese social media) pushing back against the charge of “genocide” by US politicians and Western media. Some of them are even laughing at the absurdity of it. I see these kind of strange examples posted. Like you posted, and others usually involve travel stories where the person was supposedly in the region and "didn't see anything". The general idea here is that the oppression has reached the level of genocide... with that in mind: Are people supposed to find an oppressed people showing up on video convincing of anything? Is the opposite even possible from inside China? Does anyone find hostage videos convincing? Is "laughing at the absurdity of it" supposed to convince people of something?
- fakeslimshady5 6y agohttps://foreignpolicy.com/2021/02/19/china-uighurs-genocide-us-pompeo-blinken/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/02/19/china-uighurs-genocide-... US State Department own lawyers recently admitted no evidence of genocide. How can the engineers of hackernews who have to thinking logically all be party to this debunked CIA narrative.
- tus89 6y agoSo a resolution on Turkey's treatment of the Kurds will happen in 3...2...?
- dilap 6y agoThey're using "genocide" in the same sense of the word as people who allege "white genocide", i.e., to mean that policies are reducing fertility of a certain demographic. Specifically, they allege: > the use of arbitrary detention, political re-education, forced labour, torture and forced sterilization The traditional, dictionary definition of genocide is "the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group". To use genocide in this other sense seems to me disingenous; it's an attempt to invoke the strong emotional reaction we have to mass-killings when that is not what is alleged to be ocurring. It is, in a sense, fake news: many people will see just the headlines, and assume that China is in fact carrying out vast, demographically targeted killings.
- ygjb 6y agoNo, they aren't. They are using genocide as a generally accepted legal term, and not a dictionary definition, or an interpretation of the root words that make up the word. Read the definition of genocide as it pertains to international law by reviewing the UN page on the topic[1]. There is a specific meaning, and it relates to the intention of destroying the Uigher people as a cultural identity through a campaign of imprisonment, physical harm, forced sterilization and family separations. Each of those are detailed in well respected publications around the world, and links to the articles backing that can be found by reviewing the citations on the Wikipedia article on the Uigher Genocide[2]. [1]https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml [2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghur_genocide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghur_genocide
- dilap 6y agoAh, I see. Interesting. So the claim is (I presume) that China is "imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group" with "intent to destroy". Fair enough. (It's too late to edit my comment, but I would strike out the disingenuous claim if I could.)
- DanBC 6y ago> In contemporary international law the crime of genocide is part of the broader category of “crimes against humanity,” which were defined by the Charter of the International Military Tribunal (Nürnberg Charter). The charter granted the tribunal jurisdiction to indict and try the leaders of the Nazi (Nazi Party) regime for inhumane acts committed against civilians, as well as for acts of persecution on political, racial, or religious grounds; in so doing, it also contributed to the international criminalization of other forms of abusive conduct. The momentum created by the Nürnberg trials and the ensuing revelations of Nazi atrocities led to the passage by the United Nations (UN) General Assembly of Resolution 96-I (December 1946), which made the crime of genocide punishable under international law, and of Resolution 260-III (December 1948), which approved the text of the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, the first UN human rights treaty. The convention, which entered into force in 1951, has been ratified by more than 130 countries. Although the United States played a major role in drafting the convention and was an original signatory, the U.S. Senate did not ratify it until 1988. > Article 2 of the convention defines genocide as > any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: > (a) Killing members of the group; > (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; > (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; > (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; > (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group. This is from Encyclopaedia Britannica 2010
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- rob74 6y agoOk... I'll play devil's advocate here: genocide (quoting Wikipedia) "is the intentional action to destroy a people—usually defined as an ethnic, national, racial, or religious group—in whole or in part" - meaning physically killing them. What China is doing (forced reeducation, mass surveillance etc.) is of course worthy of condemnation, but calling it "genocide" goes too far in my opinion, and diminishes the real genocides of the past. There are enough holocaust deniers already (not to mention the other skeletons that countries like Turkey would like to keep in their closets). If this "Uighur genocide" is not actually as bad as it sounds, it'll make it even easier to say that the Shoah or other genocides weren't such a big deal either...
- neaden 6y agoIt's not really necessary to play the devil's advocate to an ongoing genocide. In fact, it's a pretty bad idea. The definition of Genocide clearly includes destroying a culture with forced removal, education, and forced birth control all of which China is doing.
- aaron695 6y agoI think she is lying. > Tursun said she was forcibly sterilized in 2019 through a surgical procedure, along with hundreds of other Uighur women. (2019) "Kalbinur Tursun, 36, entrusted five of her children to relatives when she left Xinjiang to give birth in Istanbul but has been unable to contact them for several years" - https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/28/world/asia/china-xinjiang-children-boarding-schools.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/28/world/asia/china-xinjiang... But happy for a logical explanation, since we are talking genocide after all.
- hntrader 6y agoIt's not clear to me from the quotes you provided why you think she's lying? She said she was sterilized in 2019 at the age of 36 after having given birth to five or more children. I don't see anything especially suspicious there.
- aaron695 6y agoIstanbul in in Turkey. As per NYT she fled to Istanbul, to give birth. This is why she has not seen her children, she is in Istanbul. Kalbinur Tursun might be a made up name being used for Uyghurs being interviewed. It's probably two people. I see now the Chinese government have stated the original Kalbinur Tursun was a pseudonym - http://jeddah.china-consulate.org/eng/zt/xjfk/t1767403.htm http://jeddah.china-consulate.org/eng/zt/xjfk/t1767403.htm
- hntrader 6y agoGot it. Something is off in the facts of that story for sure. She left Xinjiang in 2019, and the article says that she handed her children off as she left. Then the article claims she hasn't seen her children for years. These facts can't all be true simultaneously, at least one of them must be false, unless they mean she hasn't seen her children for 1.5 years?
- excelthrow 6y agoThis website and its mods are a joke. When I posted about two countries pressuring tech companies into silencing oppressed communities (including one country credibly accused of genocide) [1] it was flagged for being “political”. But China bad. Whatever fits your agenda I guess. Goodbye. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26117559 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26117559
- quleap 6y agoIndeed. The western people have been brainwashed and have absolutely no critical thinking skills on anything related to China. There are only very few that do not blindly accept everything the western media say about China. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i915eArrego https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i915eArrego