6 ms·

I'm hopeful as the judge seems to understand the ISP strategy: > Mendez reportedly was not swayed by ISPs' claims that a net neutrality law isn't necessary bec

by icefo 6y ago

I'm hopeful as the judge seems to understand the ISP strategy: > Mendez reportedly was not swayed by ISPs' claims that a net neutrality law isn't necessary because they haven't been blocking or throttling Internet traffic. > "I have heard that argument and I don't find it persuasive," Mendez said, according to The Hollywood Reporter. "It's going to fall on deaf ears. Everyone has been on their best behavior since 2018, waiting for whatever happened in the DC Circuit [court case over the FCC's repeal of net neutrality]. I don't place weight on the argument that everything is fine and we don't need to worry."

JulianMorrison 6y ago
Suing to block a law rather undermines the argument "we had no plans to break it".
- fastball 6y ago
  On the one hand yes, on the other hand laws intended to prevent some behavior are usually less efficient than participants just not doing that behavior, and add extra overhead to the people whom you're worried about doing that behavior.
  - buran77 6y ago
    It's hard to justify expensive litigation to block a law preventing you from something you weren't doing or intending to do anyway. The only reason to spend all that time, effort, and money is to at the very least make sure the door is open for you to do such things in the future. Or worse, to keep doing them as we speak.
    - fastball 6y ago
      Again, not necessarily true. Frequently, legislation intended to block things doesn't just say "this is illegal now – don't do it". It frequently includes things like reporting requirements to ensure that you are not doing these things without the government having to constantly keep tabs on you (and obviously hefty fines / etc if your reports are found to be inaccurate). These reporting requirements (and other, similar requirements that usually accompany such legislation) can be an expensive hassle, possibly more expensive than "expensive litigation". The case only needs to be litigated once, while something like reporting requirements continue in perpetuity.
      - buran77 6y ago
        Going through the text of the bill [0] the ISP challenge I found nothing that implies such burdens on the them. If they exist in some other text I am not aware of them. Until shown otherwise I can reasonably assume ISPs simply fight a law that prevents them now and in the future from doing something that is financially advantageous to them, despite being disadvantageous to the regular consumer. [0] https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=201720180SB822 https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml...
        bko 6y ago
        Wouldn't this prevent someone like t-mobile to offer a deal in which netflix streaming doesn't count towards their data cap before throttling? It limits their ability to strike deals like this with content providers. But I guess that's the point?
        Retric 6y ago
        Yes, that’s exactly the point. A local monopoly’s deal with Netflix or even just their chose to exclude data sidesteps the free market and is thus bad. If you had the choice of say 500 local ISPs then net neutrality isn’t an issue.
        happymellon 6y ago
        Well yes, because now you either subscribe to Netflix or you don't stream video because caps will cut you off. It's funny how some cable operators also offered the benefits of their video service not effecting your data usage, while other video services do. That is anti-competitive and designed to make you buy their services rather than other people's. It has nothing to do with infrastructure as customers are allowed to stream unlimited data, and even if they go to a competitor, people generally watch at the same time. So your bandwidth is going to get hammered at the same time anyway.
        deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
        6y ago
    - bko 6y ago
      I think the risk is that there will be more direct involvement by the governments in dictating what the ISP can and cannot show. Politician's already criticize big tech for not doing enough to censor and remove fake news. I could see this laying the ground work for further involvement. Because "allow all legitimate content" can turn into disallow "illegitimate" content on the ISP level
  - ska 6y ago
    > usually less efficient than participants just not doing that behavior This has a terrible track record whenever there is a significant financial incentive for participants to do the thing.
- salawat 6y ago
  Eh, I wouldn't be so quick to hide under that tree for protection in the lightning rich environment of civil rights violations as a whole. I think laws should be challenged in order to force coming to terms with second and higher order effects, and as a matter of course be measured and revisited for reconsideration over time. That being said, from a heuristic driven, rhetorically defensive perspective, I totally get, and second your perspective in this case. The "Thou dost protest too much" bell is strong with this one.
- shmerl 6y ago
  Exactly. This attack on the law itself demonstrates their intent.
- unishark 6y ago
  That isn't quite what they said though, at least in the quoted text. They said they had no plans to block or throttle internet traffic. Regulations can have a broad effect limiting what businesses can do in a variety of ways beyond the narrow effect that is used to justify it. This law also includes prioritizing traffic and other things according to the article.
mywittyname 6y ago
If ISPs have no plans to block or throttle internet traffic, then they should have no objections to this ruling...
freeone3000 6y ago
This argument is akin to saying a law against murder is unnecessary because you haven't killed anyone. It is unpersuasive in the utmost.
proverbialbunny 6y ago
It's also a lie. AT&T currently has a slow lane. Eg, I have fiber gigabit duplex, but for encrypted uploads to unknown servers, I get throttled to 10mbps. This restricts VPN traffic to many companies, including mine 10 miles away. This also restricts bit torrent traffic, and AT&T employs some sort of Sandvine like service that sends disconnect messages to users downloading from AT&T. As far as I know AT&T has not created a slow lane for download speeds, which is why most people probably do not notice.
- throwaway7644 6y ago
  I was wondering if I was the only one having that issue. It's a shame no other company in my area offers 1000Mbs duplex because when it does work, it's great.
- thehappypm 6y ago
  Cellular networks, I believe, are allowed to throttle.
- kingnothing 6y ago
  This must be regional. I also have AT&T Fiber and have not experienced any throttling under any circumstances, regardless of VPN usage.
  - proverbialbunny 6y ago
    Have you tried seeding something on bit torrent? That's a pretty easy way to tell.
    - kingnothing 6y ago
      Yes, over a VPN. Works fine.
- drivebycomment 6y ago
  There are many possible reasons for a network traffic between two endpoints to not saturate your connection throughput to your ISP, and unless you can rule out all those other reasons, you can't just conclude that the lower throughput is due to any kind of deliberate throttling. I'm not saying they are NOT throttling. I'm just saying what you said is not enough evidence. It's true Comcast has been caught doing a packet forgery - https://www.eff.org/wp/packet-forgery-isps-report-comcast-affair https://www.eff.org/wp/packet-forgery-isps-report-comcast-af... . If ATT is also doing it, it should be straightforward to collect evidence. So is there any evidence collected that shows ATT is doing packet forgery ?

by icefo 6y ago

JulianMorrison 6y ago

Suing to block a law rather undermines the argument "we had no plans to break it".

fastball 6y ago
On the one hand yes, on the other hand laws intended to prevent some behavior are usually less efficient than participants just not doing that behavior, and add extra overhead to the people whom you're worried about doing that behavior.
- buran77 6y ago
  It's hard to justify expensive litigation to block a law preventing you from something you weren't doing or intending to do anyway. The only reason to spend all that time, effort, and money is to at the very least make sure the door is open for you to do such things in the future. Or worse, to keep doing them as we speak.
  - fastball 6y ago
    Again, not necessarily true. Frequently, legislation intended to block things doesn't just say "this is illegal now – don't do it". It frequently includes things like reporting requirements to ensure that you are not doing these things without the government having to constantly keep tabs on you (and obviously hefty fines / etc if your reports are found to be inaccurate). These reporting requirements (and other, similar requirements that usually accompany such legislation) can be an expensive hassle, possibly more expensive than "expensive litigation". The case only needs to be litigated once, while something like reporting requirements continue in perpetuity.
    - buran77 6y ago
      Going through the text of the bill [0] the ISP challenge I found nothing that implies such burdens on the them. If they exist in some other text I am not aware of them. Until shown otherwise I can reasonably assume ISPs simply fight a law that prevents them now and in the future from doing something that is financially advantageous to them, despite being disadvantageous to the regular consumer. [0] https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=201720180SB822 https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml...
      - bko 6y ago
        Wouldn't this prevent someone like t-mobile to offer a deal in which netflix streaming doesn't count towards their data cap before throttling? It limits their ability to strike deals like this with content providers. But I guess that's the point?
        Retric 6y ago
        Yes, that’s exactly the point. A local monopoly’s deal with Netflix or even just their chose to exclude data sidesteps the free market and is thus bad. If you had the choice of say 500 local ISPs then net neutrality isn’t an issue.
        happymellon 6y ago
        Well yes, because now you either subscribe to Netflix or you don't stream video because caps will cut you off. It's funny how some cable operators also offered the benefits of their video service not effecting your data usage, while other video services do. That is anti-competitive and designed to make you buy their services rather than other people's. It has nothing to do with infrastructure as customers are allowed to stream unlimited data, and even if they go to a competitor, people generally watch at the same time. So your bandwidth is going to get hammered at the same time anyway.
        deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
        6y ago
  - bko 6y ago
    I think the risk is that there will be more direct involvement by the governments in dictating what the ISP can and cannot show. Politician's already criticize big tech for not doing enough to censor and remove fake news. I could see this laying the ground work for further involvement. Because "allow all legitimate content" can turn into disallow "illegitimate" content on the ISP level
- ska 6y ago
  > usually less efficient than participants just not doing that behavior This has a terrible track record whenever there is a significant financial incentive for participants to do the thing.
salawat 6y ago
Eh, I wouldn't be so quick to hide under that tree for protection in the lightning rich environment of civil rights violations as a whole. I think laws should be challenged in order to force coming to terms with second and higher order effects, and as a matter of course be measured and revisited for reconsideration over time. That being said, from a heuristic driven, rhetorically defensive perspective, I totally get, and second your perspective in this case. The "Thou dost protest too much" bell is strong with this one.
shmerl 6y ago
Exactly. This attack on the law itself demonstrates their intent.
unishark 6y ago
That isn't quite what they said though, at least in the quoted text. They said they had no plans to block or throttle internet traffic. Regulations can have a broad effect limiting what businesses can do in a variety of ways beyond the narrow effect that is used to justify it. This law also includes prioritizing traffic and other things according to the article.

mywittyname 6y ago

If ISPs have no plans to block or throttle internet traffic, then they should have no objections to this ruling...

freeone3000 6y ago

This argument is akin to saying a law against murder is unnecessary because you haven't killed anyone. It is unpersuasive in the utmost.

proverbialbunny 6y ago

It's also a lie. AT&T currently has a slow lane. Eg, I have fiber gigabit duplex, but for encrypted uploads to unknown servers, I get throttled to 10mbps. This restricts VPN traffic to many companies, including mine 10 miles away. This also restricts bit torrent traffic, and AT&T employs some sort of Sandvine like service that sends disconnect messages to users downloading from AT&T. As far as I know AT&T has not created a slow lane for download speeds, which is why most people probably do not notice.

throwaway7644 6y ago
I was wondering if I was the only one having that issue. It's a shame no other company in my area offers 1000Mbs duplex because when it does work, it's great.
thehappypm 6y ago
Cellular networks, I believe, are allowed to throttle.
kingnothing 6y ago
This must be regional. I also have AT&T Fiber and have not experienced any throttling under any circumstances, regardless of VPN usage.
- proverbialbunny 6y ago
  Have you tried seeding something on bit torrent? That's a pretty easy way to tell.
  - kingnothing 6y ago
    Yes, over a VPN. Works fine.
drivebycomment 6y ago
There are many possible reasons for a network traffic between two endpoints to not saturate your connection throughput to your ISP, and unless you can rule out all those other reasons, you can't just conclude that the lower throughput is due to any kind of deliberate throttling. I'm not saying they are NOT throttling. I'm just saying what you said is not enough evidence. It's true Comcast has been caught doing a packet forgery - https://www.eff.org/wp/packet-forgery-isps-report-comcast-affair https://www.eff.org/wp/packet-forgery-isps-report-comcast-af... . If ATT is also doing it, it should be straightforward to collect evidence. So is there any evidence collected that shows ATT is doing packet forgery ?