9 ms·

Outside of neglect and abuse, is there really a WRONG way of raising a child? You see multiple different styles in different cultures. Some cultures where bed-

Outside of neglect and abuse, is there really a WRONG way of raising a child? You see multiple different styles in different cultures. Some cultures where bed-sharing and baby-carrying is common also beat their kids and use other forms of punishment for disobedience. Wouldn't that be much "weirder"? It seems in Europe breastfeeding rates are really low and people use prams, but they might not beat the child as much (or at all). Is that the wrong way? It seems to me people who are loved and cared for as children are raised and generally become well-adjusted and happy individuals. I fear parents are being constantly judged now for not doing the latest thing that some research found, the latest fad that may or may not have a tiny effect on the child's life itself. It probably gives people a lot of anxiety that they might be doing something terribly wrong for the child for not having the right crib height, or not sleeping in the same bed, or not playing Mozart at the right time or whatever.

xeromal 6y ago
I love this take and believe in it whole-heartedly. It's very similar to how every shits on each others diets. Some people only eat rice, some potatoes, some meat, and some exclusively ocean. Humans are very versatile and durable and really can make due with most things. The same probably applies to raising children too.
watwut 6y ago
I suspect that pram vs carrying thing has a lot more to do with practicalities then anything else. Quality of sidewalks, availability of good changing places, how far you need to go and how much stuff you carry.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
PebblesRox 6y ago
I agree and I really dislike the undercurrent of fear that's present in a lot of parenting advice. The message (implicitly or explicitly) tends to be "do it this way or you'll damage your kids." But the truth is we're never going to be perfect parents, we have no guarantees over how our kids turn out, and there are a wide range of approaches that will lead to good outcomes. I like to do research to discover options I might not have come up with on my own, but I always try to pay attention to those subtle messages of fear so they don't influence my decisions too much.
- A4ET8a8uTh0 6y ago
  There is damage and there is damage. Some can really change kids trajectory. Some become a funny anecdote for the future. I am a newly minted parent and we had a visitation from a parent, who now has a 4 year old. She already introduced him to Starbucks and McDonalds. Now I have to ensure that she stays way way down on the list of people we would consider babysitting. There may not be wrong way to parent exactly and each parent is entitled to damage their kids ( within reasons prescribed by the society ). My line clearly starts with food and I can already see I people won't like me in school, PTA and like meetings. Joy.
  - lqet 6y ago
    > She already introduced him to Starbucks and McDonalds. Now I have to ensure that she stays way way down on the list of people we would consider babysitting. Relax. I occasionally ate fast food when I was 4, and I was definitely aware of the existence of McDonalds. I never had a weight problem in my life, and today I eat fast food maybe once every 3 months or so.
    - kube-system 6y ago
      I feel like we're probably not the only kids who ate Happy Meals. Starbucks might be a different type of menu to navigate, but they do have child-appropriate items. https://www.starbucks.com/menu/product/2121691/single https://www.starbucks.com/menu/product/2121691/single
    - silicon2401 6y ago
      That's a condescending and unfounded response. Some people can take heroin and not have issues, but that doesn't make heroin safe by any means. You're in a small minority of Americans and not representative of the average person. > The organization estimates that 3/4 of the American population will likely be overweight or obese by 2020.[13] According to research done by the Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health, it is estimated that around 40% of Americans are considered obese, and 18% are considered severely obese as of 2019. Severe obesity is defined as a BMI over 35 in the study. Their projections say that about half of the US population (48.9%) will be considered obese and nearly 1 in 4 (24.2%) will be considered severely obese by the year 2030.[14][15] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obesity_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obesity_in_the_United_States
newsbinator 6y ago
> It seems to me people who are loved and cared for as children are raised and generally become well-adjusted and happy individuals. Is there evidence that people who are tolerated and fed/clothed but not super-loved or super cared-for as children have worse outcomes as adults (adjusting for socio-economic class)?
- richardwhiuk 6y ago
  Yes.
  - newsbinator 6y ago
    Could you please link to it?
    - asidiali 6y ago
      Here’s one from about 3 seconds of Googling: The importance of touch in development (2010) https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2865952/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2865952/ It’s not human exclusive, and it’s woven into our chemical makeup. “In rats, the amount of maternal licking received as a pup has a profound impact on the behaviour and physiology of the adult.” Feel free to continue the search to answer your own question.
aswegs8 6y ago
Can't agree more. BBC just tends to play the "self-critical Western" role a bit too much.
- lostcolony 6y ago
  Who would you prefer to be critical of Western culture, rather than a Western news organization? Or do you feel that criticism isn't warranted?
- pineaux 6y ago
  You sound very red-pilled
ragnese 6y ago
I'm in the U.S. I personally know a non-trivial number of women who have gone through absolutely intense (real, diagnosed) anxiety and depression because of having to feed formula to their child instead of breast milk. If you ever get to peek into these "mommy groups" on social media or in person, you can see how much shaming goes on in there. And the breast milk one is one of the biggest issues people get shamed for. Sometimes it's passive aggressive and indirect, and sometimes it's quite direct. They trot out headlines from questionable studies from totally different living environments in the world that indicate some 3 IQ point increase in kids that were breastfed and then they act like it's proof that formula feeding is child abuse. The guilt and shame people feel over these things is very harmful. I have some advice I'd like to spread and share. It applies to myself as well and I've been trying very hard to practice it. It is this: If you are not a scientist who has actually conducted one of these studies; if you are not intimately familiar with the methodologies and the math techniques used in the analysis; if you've only ever read the headline and maybe an abstract of a study- then please don't give advice to anyone on the topic. Please don't spread "information" that X is better than Y.
- rtx 6y ago
  Forcing formula is not abuse but neglect, unless done due to medical conditions. Don't fight evolution, formula is harder to digest. Why are you peddling pseudo science over here.
  - Monroe13 6y ago
    This is exactly the attitude the above poster is complaining against. Breast feeding is probably better than formula in a few small ways, but treating formula use as “neglect” creates a harmful burden on new - and already stressed - mothers. If breast feeding is difficult, feed your child formula. They will turn out just fine.
    - rtx 6y ago
      Facts are not attitude. I am not talking to mothers, as not my business. However peddling pseudo science should be opposed.
lqet 6y ago
Fully agree. Parenting gets a lot easier as soon as you accept that you don't have any clue what you are doing. The child must be loved, fed, washed, and dressed. Everything else is improvisation. E: I remember sitting in antenatal class and mindful, well-educated parents asking stuff like the interval they should set their alarm clock to, so they know when to "correctly" feed their child. They read somewhere that a newborn needs milk every 1,5 hours and took that literally.
- concordDance 6y ago
  > dressed You can probably even leave this one out!
  - lqet 6y ago
    As soon as they turn 2, getting them dressed does indeed require extensive improvisation :)
    - bluGill 6y ago
      Long before that. I have to struggle with my 10 months old at times. She wants to crawl away and play with something (preferably something dangerous - it is amazing how easy it is for a plastic bag to end up in reach even when you are careful)
concordDance 6y ago
> neglect and abuse There's a lot of hidden complexity and subjectivity in those two words.
tootie 6y ago
Sometimes cultural differences can be self-reinforcing. Studies on corporal punishment and childhood trauma have shown that trauma increases when it's perceived as unusual. If a kid is beaten for disobedience and none of their peers are, it's more likely to cause lasting trauma. In societies where beatings are commonplace, kids are much more likely to adjust and grow up fine.
notsureaboutpg 6y ago
> Outside of neglect and abuse, is there really a WRONG way of raising a child? Well, do we know if there is or not? Also, "neglect" and "abuse", not everyone will draw the same line. Parenting is one of the only activities in our lives where we have to completely disregard the expressed desires of the one we care about in order to make life better for them. If a kid doesn't want to go to school, they still have to go. If a kid does something wrong, they have to be taught somehow (even if they don't want to). Is it abusive to make people do stuff against their will? Westerners think it is in every circumstance except parenting. Others will disagree. Is corporal punishment abusive? You seem to think so, but many will disagree. You'd probably argue pretty well that it is! And you'd feel you're really helping families all over by proving your point. And that's where the shame around parenting comes from.

xeromal 6y ago

I love this take and believe in it whole-heartedly. It's very similar to how every shits on each others diets. Some people only eat rice, some potatoes, some meat, and some exclusively ocean. Humans are very versatile and durable and really can make due with most things. The same probably applies to raising children too.

watwut 6y ago

I suspect that pram vs carrying thing has a lot more to do with practicalities then anything else. Quality of sidewalks, availability of good changing places, how far you need to go and how much stuff you carry.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

PebblesRox 6y ago

I agree and I really dislike the undercurrent of fear that's present in a lot of parenting advice. The message (implicitly or explicitly) tends to be "do it this way or you'll damage your kids." But the truth is we're never going to be perfect parents, we have no guarantees over how our kids turn out, and there are a wide range of approaches that will lead to good outcomes. I like to do research to discover options I might not have come up with on my own, but I always try to pay attention to those subtle messages of fear so they don't influence my decisions too much.

A4ET8a8uTh0 6y ago
There is damage and there is damage. Some can really change kids trajectory. Some become a funny anecdote for the future. I am a newly minted parent and we had a visitation from a parent, who now has a 4 year old. She already introduced him to Starbucks and McDonalds. Now I have to ensure that she stays way way down on the list of people we would consider babysitting. There may not be wrong way to parent exactly and each parent is entitled to damage their kids ( within reasons prescribed by the society ). My line clearly starts with food and I can already see I people won't like me in school, PTA and like meetings. Joy.
- lqet 6y ago
  > She already introduced him to Starbucks and McDonalds. Now I have to ensure that she stays way way down on the list of people we would consider babysitting. Relax. I occasionally ate fast food when I was 4, and I was definitely aware of the existence of McDonalds. I never had a weight problem in my life, and today I eat fast food maybe once every 3 months or so.
  - kube-system 6y ago
    I feel like we're probably not the only kids who ate Happy Meals. Starbucks might be a different type of menu to navigate, but they do have child-appropriate items. https://www.starbucks.com/menu/product/2121691/single https://www.starbucks.com/menu/product/2121691/single
  - silicon2401 6y ago
    That's a condescending and unfounded response. Some people can take heroin and not have issues, but that doesn't make heroin safe by any means. You're in a small minority of Americans and not representative of the average person. > The organization estimates that 3/4 of the American population will likely be overweight or obese by 2020.[13] According to research done by the Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health, it is estimated that around 40% of Americans are considered obese, and 18% are considered severely obese as of 2019. Severe obesity is defined as a BMI over 35 in the study. Their projections say that about half of the US population (48.9%) will be considered obese and nearly 1 in 4 (24.2%) will be considered severely obese by the year 2030.[14][15] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obesity_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obesity_in_the_United_States

newsbinator 6y ago

> It seems to me people who are loved and cared for as children are raised and generally become well-adjusted and happy individuals. Is there evidence that people who are tolerated and fed/clothed but not super-loved or super cared-for as children have worse outcomes as adults (adjusting for socio-economic class)?

richardwhiuk 6y ago
Yes.
- newsbinator 6y ago
  Could you please link to it?
  - asidiali 6y ago
    Here’s one from about 3 seconds of Googling: The importance of touch in development (2010) https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2865952/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2865952/ It’s not human exclusive, and it’s woven into our chemical makeup. “In rats, the amount of maternal licking received as a pup has a profound impact on the behaviour and physiology of the adult.” Feel free to continue the search to answer your own question.

aswegs8 6y ago

Can't agree more. BBC just tends to play the "self-critical Western" role a bit too much.

lostcolony 6y ago
Who would you prefer to be critical of Western culture, rather than a Western news organization? Or do you feel that criticism isn't warranted?
pineaux 6y ago
You sound very red-pilled

ragnese 6y ago

I'm in the U.S. I personally know a non-trivial number of women who have gone through absolutely intense (real, diagnosed) anxiety and depression because of having to feed formula to their child instead of breast milk. If you ever get to peek into these "mommy groups" on social media or in person, you can see how much shaming goes on in there. And the breast milk one is one of the biggest issues people get shamed for. Sometimes it's passive aggressive and indirect, and sometimes it's quite direct. They trot out headlines from questionable studies from totally different living environments in the world that indicate some 3 IQ point increase in kids that were breastfed and then they act like it's proof that formula feeding is child abuse. The guilt and shame people feel over these things is very harmful. I have some advice I'd like to spread and share. It applies to myself as well and I've been trying very hard to practice it. It is this: If you are not a scientist who has actually conducted one of these studies; if you are not intimately familiar with the methodologies and the math techniques used in the analysis; if you've only ever read the headline and maybe an abstract of a study- then please don't give advice to anyone on the topic. Please don't spread "information" that X is better than Y.

rtx 6y ago
Forcing formula is not abuse but neglect, unless done due to medical conditions. Don't fight evolution, formula is harder to digest. Why are you peddling pseudo science over here.
- Monroe13 6y ago
  This is exactly the attitude the above poster is complaining against. Breast feeding is probably better than formula in a few small ways, but treating formula use as “neglect” creates a harmful burden on new - and already stressed - mothers. If breast feeding is difficult, feed your child formula. They will turn out just fine.
  - rtx 6y ago
    Facts are not attitude. I am not talking to mothers, as not my business. However peddling pseudo science should be opposed.

lqet 6y ago

Fully agree. Parenting gets a lot easier as soon as you accept that you don't have any clue what you are doing. The child must be loved, fed, washed, and dressed. Everything else is improvisation. E: I remember sitting in antenatal class and mindful, well-educated parents asking stuff like the interval they should set their alarm clock to, so they know when to "correctly" feed their child. They read somewhere that a newborn needs milk every 1,5 hours and took that literally.

concordDance 6y ago
> dressed You can probably even leave this one out!
- lqet 6y ago
  As soon as they turn 2, getting them dressed does indeed require extensive improvisation :)
  - bluGill 6y ago
    Long before that. I have to struggle with my 10 months old at times. She wants to crawl away and play with something (preferably something dangerous - it is amazing how easy it is for a plastic bag to end up in reach even when you are careful)

concordDance 6y ago

> neglect and abuse There's a lot of hidden complexity and subjectivity in those two words.

tootie 6y ago

Sometimes cultural differences can be self-reinforcing. Studies on corporal punishment and childhood trauma have shown that trauma increases when it's perceived as unusual. If a kid is beaten for disobedience and none of their peers are, it's more likely to cause lasting trauma. In societies where beatings are commonplace, kids are much more likely to adjust and grow up fine.

notsureaboutpg 6y ago

> Outside of neglect and abuse, is there really a WRONG way of raising a child? Well, do we know if there is or not? Also, "neglect" and "abuse", not everyone will draw the same line. Parenting is one of the only activities in our lives where we have to completely disregard the expressed desires of the one we care about in order to make life better for them. If a kid doesn't want to go to school, they still have to go. If a kid does something wrong, they have to be taught somehow (even if they don't want to). Is it abusive to make people do stuff against their will? Westerners think it is in every circumstance except parenting. Others will disagree. Is corporal punishment abusive? You seem to think so, but many will disagree. You'd probably argue pretty well that it is! And you'd feel you're really helping families all over by proving your point. And that's where the shame around parenting comes from.