6 ms·

I did most of my programming in Delphi when I was a kid. Unfortunately, I then got stuck on it. Any other language is either too slow or too unsafe. Nowadays,

I did most of my programming in Delphi when I was a kid. Unfortunately, I then got stuck on it. Any other language is either too slow or too unsafe. Nowadays, I mostly use FreePascal, because so many people refuse to use non-open-source software, but FreePascal never caught up to Delphi. And there is no open-source ecosystem, probably because there is no standard package manager. Even if there are Pascal libraries, it is hard to find them or they become quickly unmaintained, so it is more economic to write everything myself. And then I could not find a job because no one is searching for Delphi programmers

badsectoracula 6y ago
Where do you think Free Pascal hasn't caught up to Delphi? AFAIK they're more the less the same with the main thing missing from Free Pascal is anonymous functions (they're in a separate branch though and will be added at some point "soon") and inline variable declarations (which wont be added because the Free Pascal developers feel that they aren't "Pascal-ish"). BTW Lazarus does have a package manager, just make sure you have the 'onlinepackagemanager' package installed in the IDE (should be installed by default with Windows installations but you may need to explicitly install it if you build from source).
- benibela 6y ago
  >inline variable declarations (which wont be added because the Free Pascal developers feel that they aren't "Pascal-ish"). That is the big one And just in quality. FPC compiles slower or even crashes during compiling. Debugging is worse with gdb. On Linux it uses longjmp exception handling which is rather slow. It tries to warn about uninitialized variables, but does not track properly which ones are initialized >BTW Lazarus does have a package manager, just make sure you have the 'onlinepackagemanager' package installed in the IDE (should be installed by default with Windows installations but you may need to explicitly install it if you build from source). Lazarus is not FreePascal. They only include libraries that are Lazarus Packages (with an *.lpk file), and I use libraries that do not have one On the other hand, I used Lazarus (only LCL and lazbuild) is another project, and tried to submit it to an open-source app store, and they refused it, because they would not install Lazarus, because Lazarus was an IDE. Freepascal actually has a package manager, too: https://fppkg.cnoc.nl/ https://fppkg.cnoc.nl/ But it is not advertised, so there are even less libraries on it Anyways, what is missing is a single command line call that installs all dependencies I used in my projects. And these dependencies are neither in opm nor fppkg
  - badsectoracula 6y ago
    > That is the big one Well, it isn't a matter of "catching up" then since the developers have explicitly decided to not implement that feature in terms of language design grounds (though IMO considering how many additional dialects and subdialects the compiler supports not adding it even behind a modeswitch is weird - but i wouldn't really call it a "big one"). > And just in quality. FPC compiles slower or even crashes during compiling. I'm using FPC for almost two decades now and the only time i had FPC crash was when i fed it around 300MB of randomly generated code to see how it'd react - it was the 32bit binary too so that probably helped :-P. I'm not saying it wouldn't crash for you but personally over the years over many projects, machines, installations and OSes (i've used it on Windows, Linux, macOS, OS/2 -well, eComStation, same thing- and even Haiku) and never had it crash so i doubt it is really a thing common enough to stand out. In my experience FPC was always rock solid - Lazarus too as of late 2000s (it used to be more crashy before that though). For performance i agree that it isn't ideal but on the other hand Free Pascal supports a much greater number of architectures, a bunch of different dialects and subdialects and all that make the compiler much more complicated and thus slower. And in practice even Lazarus which AFAIK is almost 2 million lines of code compiles in a matter of seconds (on my PC) so i do not really mind that much (though sure, it'd be nice if it was as fast as Delphi). > Debugging is worse with gdb. This is really gdb's issue though, there is a new debugger written specifically for Free Pascal that from the little i've used it is much more reliable.... and i just read as i was typing this that it should work under Windows properly now, so i might try it (i also have issues with gdb). > On Linux it uses longjmp exception handling which is rather slow. Hm, perhaps though i've often done profiling in my apps and never noticed anything related to exceptions to enter the picture (i'm not using exceptions myself much though - especially not in any 'hot path'). > It tries to warn about uninitialized variables, but does not track properly which ones are initialized There have been a bunch of changes very recently and in fact they introduced even more warnings :-P but TBH i only notice those whenever the initialization is based on conditions that may have other side effects and the use is based on those side effects - you writing the code know this can't happen, but the compiler cannot tell that (i'm not even sure if it is possible in all cases). I usually just either initialize the variable to "default" or hide the message through an IDE directive (it'll show in command-line builds though). > Lazarus is not FreePascal. They only include libraries that are Lazarus Packages (with an *.lpk file), and I use libraries that do not have one Yeah but Lazarus is by far the most common IDE used with Free Pascal so it is a safe assumption that someone using one also uses the other. And besides the Lazarus package manager doesn't contain every Lazarus package either, however what you originally wrote was that there isn't a package manager, not that everything should be available from it. > On the other hand, I used Lazarus (only LCL and lazbuild) is another project, and tried to submit it to an open-source app store, and they refused it, because they would not install Lazarus, because Lazarus was an IDE. Well, that isn't an issue with Lazarus either, though you should have told them that Lazarus does have a command-line project builder called lazbuild so it can also act as a building tool. > Anyways, what is missing is a single command line call that installs all dependencies I used in my projects. And these dependencies are neither in opm nor fppkg AFAIK fppkg was introduced in recent years and from what i remember from the mailing list not everyone was interested in package managers (e.g. personally i am not, i tend to stick with whatever comes with the language since external stuff may stop be developed - and Free Pascal and Lazarus come with a ton of packages out of the box anyway) so chances are you won't ever be able to find all dependencies in a package manager. It is there more as a convenience to avoid downloading stuff manually.
sitkack 6y ago
Sounds like you have a wonderful ecosystem, only that it is very small. My recommendation is to make your next side project a package manager, or coopt an existing one. It is amazing that the project is as vibrant as it is without the network effects of a package sharing ecosystem. I would really recommend using git itself as the basis for a package repository.

badsectoracula 6y ago

Where do you think Free Pascal hasn't caught up to Delphi? AFAIK they're more the less the same with the main thing missing from Free Pascal is anonymous functions (they're in a separate branch though and will be added at some point "soon") and inline variable declarations (which wont be added because the Free Pascal developers feel that they aren't "Pascal-ish"). BTW Lazarus does have a package manager, just make sure you have the 'onlinepackagemanager' package installed in the IDE (should be installed by default with Windows installations but you may need to explicitly install it if you build from source).

benibela 6y ago
>inline variable declarations (which wont be added because the Free Pascal developers feel that they aren't "Pascal-ish"). That is the big one And just in quality. FPC compiles slower or even crashes during compiling. Debugging is worse with gdb. On Linux it uses longjmp exception handling which is rather slow. It tries to warn about uninitialized variables, but does not track properly which ones are initialized >BTW Lazarus does have a package manager, just make sure you have the 'onlinepackagemanager' package installed in the IDE (should be installed by default with Windows installations but you may need to explicitly install it if you build from source). Lazarus is not FreePascal. They only include libraries that are Lazarus Packages (with an *.lpk file), and I use libraries that do not have one On the other hand, I used Lazarus (only LCL and lazbuild) is another project, and tried to submit it to an open-source app store, and they refused it, because they would not install Lazarus, because Lazarus was an IDE. Freepascal actually has a package manager, too: https://fppkg.cnoc.nl/ https://fppkg.cnoc.nl/ But it is not advertised, so there are even less libraries on it Anyways, what is missing is a single command line call that installs all dependencies I used in my projects. And these dependencies are neither in opm nor fppkg
- badsectoracula 6y ago
  > That is the big one Well, it isn't a matter of "catching up" then since the developers have explicitly decided to not implement that feature in terms of language design grounds (though IMO considering how many additional dialects and subdialects the compiler supports not adding it even behind a modeswitch is weird - but i wouldn't really call it a "big one"). > And just in quality. FPC compiles slower or even crashes during compiling. I'm using FPC for almost two decades now and the only time i had FPC crash was when i fed it around 300MB of randomly generated code to see how it'd react - it was the 32bit binary too so that probably helped :-P. I'm not saying it wouldn't crash for you but personally over the years over many projects, machines, installations and OSes (i've used it on Windows, Linux, macOS, OS/2 -well, eComStation, same thing- and even Haiku) and never had it crash so i doubt it is really a thing common enough to stand out. In my experience FPC was always rock solid - Lazarus too as of late 2000s (it used to be more crashy before that though). For performance i agree that it isn't ideal but on the other hand Free Pascal supports a much greater number of architectures, a bunch of different dialects and subdialects and all that make the compiler much more complicated and thus slower. And in practice even Lazarus which AFAIK is almost 2 million lines of code compiles in a matter of seconds (on my PC) so i do not really mind that much (though sure, it'd be nice if it was as fast as Delphi). > Debugging is worse with gdb. This is really gdb's issue though, there is a new debugger written specifically for Free Pascal that from the little i've used it is much more reliable.... and i just read as i was typing this that it should work under Windows properly now, so i might try it (i also have issues with gdb). > On Linux it uses longjmp exception handling which is rather slow. Hm, perhaps though i've often done profiling in my apps and never noticed anything related to exceptions to enter the picture (i'm not using exceptions myself much though - especially not in any 'hot path'). > It tries to warn about uninitialized variables, but does not track properly which ones are initialized There have been a bunch of changes very recently and in fact they introduced even more warnings :-P but TBH i only notice those whenever the initialization is based on conditions that may have other side effects and the use is based on those side effects - you writing the code know this can't happen, but the compiler cannot tell that (i'm not even sure if it is possible in all cases). I usually just either initialize the variable to "default" or hide the message through an IDE directive (it'll show in command-line builds though). > Lazarus is not FreePascal. They only include libraries that are Lazarus Packages (with an *.lpk file), and I use libraries that do not have one Yeah but Lazarus is by far the most common IDE used with Free Pascal so it is a safe assumption that someone using one also uses the other. And besides the Lazarus package manager doesn't contain every Lazarus package either, however what you originally wrote was that there isn't a package manager, not that everything should be available from it. > On the other hand, I used Lazarus (only LCL and lazbuild) is another project, and tried to submit it to an open-source app store, and they refused it, because they would not install Lazarus, because Lazarus was an IDE. Well, that isn't an issue with Lazarus either, though you should have told them that Lazarus does have a command-line project builder called lazbuild so it can also act as a building tool. > Anyways, what is missing is a single command line call that installs all dependencies I used in my projects. And these dependencies are neither in opm nor fppkg AFAIK fppkg was introduced in recent years and from what i remember from the mailing list not everyone was interested in package managers (e.g. personally i am not, i tend to stick with whatever comes with the language since external stuff may stop be developed - and Free Pascal and Lazarus come with a ton of packages out of the box anyway) so chances are you won't ever be able to find all dependencies in a package manager. It is there more as a convenience to avoid downloading stuff manually.

sitkack 6y ago

Sounds like you have a wonderful ecosystem, only that it is very small. My recommendation is to make your next side project a package manager, or coopt an existing one. It is amazing that the project is as vibrant as it is without the network effects of a package sharing ecosystem. I would really recommend using git itself as the basis for a package repository.