5 ms·

At minimum, everyone must wear a mask. No excuses.

by sep_field 6y ago

aphroz 6y ago
Do we have proofs that it works or does it makes people feel safer ? What kind of masks (FFP1, FFP2) ?
- goodcanadian 6y ago
  There is evidence that it reduces transmission somewhat: probably not a lot, but even a few percent will have an impact. The best thing to do, mask or not, is avoid close contact with other people. Avoid crowds; maintain 2m distance; and so on. The advice has never been about protecting you or anyone else in particular, it is about reducing the transmission in the general population. With that goal in mind, small benefits can have a major impact overall.
- krono 6y ago
  If nothing else, it's a constant reminder to people that there's a serious problem going on that we need everyone's help with to fix. Just another while longer, hopefully.
- Arainach 6y ago
  Yes, masks work. The evidence has always been consistent on that. https://www.pnas.org/content/118/4/e2014564118 https://www.pnas.org/content/118/4/e2014564118 That we are still having this question raised after a year of the pandemic is embarrassing for humanity as a species.
  - timr 6y ago
    The only randomized controlled trial for masks and Covid-19 found no statistically significant protective effect. Jeremy Howard didn't even bother citing it in the review you're linking: https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/10.7326/m20-6817 https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/10.7326/m20-6817 The Howard review is, in general, of extremely low quality. The top-line conclusions of some of the cited articles are completely mis-interpreted, and the citations within are sloppy and misleading -- bold assertions are made without evidence, and the reader is led to assume that a leading/trailing citation provides support for the claim, when it does not. There are far better reviews of the available literature. Here is one: https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/masking-lack-of-evidence-with-politics/ https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/masking-lack-of-evidence-with-... The meta-study commissioned by the WHO is another: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)31142-9/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6... You'll note that they found a small positive effect for masks in the community, only when including and aggregating a large number of low-quality studies. They admit that the evidence base is weak. In general, there's a great deal of uncertainty around the effectiveness of masks in the hands of the general public. There may be a small positive effect, but we simply don't know. One of the biggest mistakes of this pandemic has been the political weaponization of this issue, and the exaggeration of certainty -- on both sides of the debate.
    - jasonvorhe 6y ago
      I'm pretty happy with how it was handled in Germany. Masks clearly aren't marketed as a perfect solution, but as a key element in a mix of other measures that are social distancing, work from home, leave home for necessities, keep your distance during visits to the supermarket, etc. I'm really surprised that masks turned out to be such a cause for drama. At the worst they caused discomfort, especially for people with big beards/prescription glasses, but if it turns out wearing masks helped just by a margin, isn't that already worth it, in the grand scheme of things? Isn't 1 live saved out of a 1000 already with the negatives? It just baffles me.
      - timr 6y ago
        Yes, I agree about the German approach. Japan (which I follow closely) is similar -- the issue of masks is drama-free, and much more pragmatic than in the US. But when I say "pragmatic", I mean it on both sides: you also don't see the insanity of people scolding other people over something with uncertain marginal effect. That's the part I can't stand here in the US. I do think that of all of the things we have done in this pandemic, the act of forcing someone to wear something -- and on the face, no less -- is fairly obviously a politically fraught act. I'm not terribly surprised that the symbolism of the act became the story.
        sep_field 6y ago
        it's like a condom for your face. What's not to love? I plan to keep wearing it even after this is all over. In smarter countries, people wear masks whenever they are sick as a thoughtful courtesy to protect those around them. I'd like to see that attitude worldwide.
        timr 6y ago
        > it's like a condom for your face. What's not to love? I know you're being cheeky here, but just to be serious for a moment: there's a HUGE literature on the subject of condom use and public-health messaging from the 80s and the HIV crisis. Condoms are...not exactly popular, of course (the TL;DR is that shaming doesn't work very well. Honesty and education >> scolding and shaming when it comes to behavioral change that is intimate and unpleasant). It's continually astounding to me how many lessons from that pandemic seem to have been forgotten.
  - DaniloDias 6y ago
    Everyone I’ve seen for the last year has been wearing masks. Masks either don’t work in a meaningful way, or this pandemic is not meaningfully stopped by masks. Our inability to stop exponential growth is not embarrassing. It is frightening how little the average human truly understands about exponential growth.
    - Arainach 6y ago
      Your reasoning is incorrect. This virus is incredibly contagious. Just because we haven't been able to reduce R0 below one doesn't mean that precautions haven't been having a significant effect. In a downpour, a car's windshield wipers may not be able to move fast enough to provide clear vision. This doesn't mean that they don't work or aren't making a significant improvement.
    - pbourke 6y ago
      And have you been following people into their homes to see if they meet indoors, maskless, with those not in their household?
- ben_w 6y ago
  Yes, the have been peer-reviewed studies which demonstrate effectiveness: https://files.nc.gov/covid/documents/info-for/The-effectiveness-of-face-masks-to-prevent-SARS-CoV.pdf https://files.nc.gov/covid/documents/info-for/The-effectiven... All masks have some improvement over the absence of a mask. High-end masks have been mandatory in Berlin supermarkets for a while now.
- jasonvorhe 6y ago
  This gives a good overview over the current state of scientific research wrt mask usage in general: https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-02801-8 https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-02801-8 tl:dr: Some indicators point to masks being useful but the data isn't conclusive and a lot of other factors might impact the data (such as other covid-19 related measures that help in keeping infection rates low) but these two quotes should be sufficient reason to wear them: “There’s a lot more we would like to know,” says Vos, who contributed to the analysis. “But given that it is such a simple, low-cost intervention with potentially such a large impact, who would not want to use it?” It’s not the only solution, says Gandhi, “but I think it is a profoundly important pillar of pandemic control”. As Digard puts it: “Masks work, but they are not infallible. And, therefore, keep your distance.”
- Bancakes 6y ago
  Yeah some people have done simulations to show the spread of particles with and without a mask. That's enough for me, I trust physics over correlational statistics.
- tzs 6y ago
  If you have someone you live in close enough contact with that you are already going to be sharing any respiratory illnesses, you can do a simple experiment. Have them stand across the room from you, without wearing a mask, and have them cough at you. Then have them move a step closer and do it again. Note where you can first feel the cough. Then repeat but with them wearing a mask. You should find that they have to get much closer. Second experiment. Having them at the place they ended up after the first experiment, have them cough at you without their mask on. Not subjectively how much cough seems to have reached you. Now have them put on their mask, and repeatedly cough at you until you feel the same total amount of cough has reached you. You should find that it takes many more coughs on their part. For a virus that is expelled when you expel air and then sinks rather than lingering indefinitely anything that reduces the horizontal range of someone's expulsions, such as the above experiments demonstrate masks do, must decrease the number of viruses you will get from someone who is spreading it when you pass by them.
- aphroz 6y ago
  Can we still question things, genuinely ? I think the most harmful consequence in the long term will be how we will accept to follow orders without questioning it. I have read different articles saying that no measures have been proven efficient against COVID. I think that many countries will use the masks to make people feel safe and keep going to work. Asian countries have been testing and isolating, while western countries let people work even when they are sick, by using masks.
throwaway45349 6y ago
Some are medically exempt. This mask-or-else culture pushes those people out of society, totally unfairly.
- ChrisRR 6y ago
  No, It has been determined time and time again that if you have a respiratory illness that means you're struggling to breathe so much that you can't breathe with a mask on, that puts you in the extremely high risk category from covid The only legitimate reasons are associated with anxiety issues, which aren't medically exempt.
- mike_d 6y ago
  According to the chief medical officer for the American Lung Association, the only legitimate medical exemption is people who are on supplemental oxygen. Even patients with chronic lung disease can wear a non-N95 mask with no detrimental effects. The CDC does recognize intellectual and developmental disabilities as legitimate medical exemptions, which I believe is the most common case we are seeing the US.
ben_w 6y ago
On the one hand I agree with you. On the other hand, saying it didn’t make it so for HIV and condoms. Policy must account for people not all doing the correct thing; for people who think it’s overblown or a conspiracy; etc.
- sep_field 6y ago
  Fines and jail time would be a start at correcting policy. Especially jail time for cops who refuse to wear masks.
  - ben_w 6y ago
    Fines I agree with, thought I suspect jail would make things worse. Not just because jail is a health risk all by itself, but because compliance with the law depends on people collectively agreeing that the law is just, and excessive punishment does the opposite (or so I hear).
    - sep_field 6y ago
      yeah I think jail is best reserved for cops and politicians.

At minimum, everyone must wear a mask. No excuses.

aphroz 6y ago

Do we have proofs that it works or does it makes people feel safer ? What kind of masks (FFP1, FFP2) ?

goodcanadian 6y ago
There is evidence that it reduces transmission somewhat: probably not a lot, but even a few percent will have an impact. The best thing to do, mask or not, is avoid close contact with other people. Avoid crowds; maintain 2m distance; and so on. The advice has never been about protecting you or anyone else in particular, it is about reducing the transmission in the general population. With that goal in mind, small benefits can have a major impact overall.
krono 6y ago
If nothing else, it's a constant reminder to people that there's a serious problem going on that we need everyone's help with to fix. Just another while longer, hopefully.
Arainach 6y ago
Yes, masks work. The evidence has always been consistent on that. https://www.pnas.org/content/118/4/e2014564118 https://www.pnas.org/content/118/4/e2014564118 That we are still having this question raised after a year of the pandemic is embarrassing for humanity as a species.
- timr 6y ago
  The only randomized controlled trial for masks and Covid-19 found no statistically significant protective effect. Jeremy Howard didn't even bother citing it in the review you're linking: https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/10.7326/m20-6817 https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/10.7326/m20-6817 The Howard review is, in general, of extremely low quality. The top-line conclusions of some of the cited articles are completely mis-interpreted, and the citations within are sloppy and misleading -- bold assertions are made without evidence, and the reader is led to assume that a leading/trailing citation provides support for the claim, when it does not. There are far better reviews of the available literature. Here is one: https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/masking-lack-of-evidence-with-politics/ https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/masking-lack-of-evidence-with-... The meta-study commissioned by the WHO is another: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)31142-9/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6... You'll note that they found a small positive effect for masks in the community, only when including and aggregating a large number of low-quality studies. They admit that the evidence base is weak. In general, there's a great deal of uncertainty around the effectiveness of masks in the hands of the general public. There may be a small positive effect, but we simply don't know. One of the biggest mistakes of this pandemic has been the political weaponization of this issue, and the exaggeration of certainty -- on both sides of the debate.
  - jasonvorhe 6y ago
    I'm pretty happy with how it was handled in Germany. Masks clearly aren't marketed as a perfect solution, but as a key element in a mix of other measures that are social distancing, work from home, leave home for necessities, keep your distance during visits to the supermarket, etc. I'm really surprised that masks turned out to be such a cause for drama. At the worst they caused discomfort, especially for people with big beards/prescription glasses, but if it turns out wearing masks helped just by a margin, isn't that already worth it, in the grand scheme of things? Isn't 1 live saved out of a 1000 already with the negatives? It just baffles me.
    - timr 6y ago
      Yes, I agree about the German approach. Japan (which I follow closely) is similar -- the issue of masks is drama-free, and much more pragmatic than in the US. But when I say "pragmatic", I mean it on both sides: you also don't see the insanity of people scolding other people over something with uncertain marginal effect. That's the part I can't stand here in the US. I do think that of all of the things we have done in this pandemic, the act of forcing someone to wear something -- and on the face, no less -- is fairly obviously a politically fraught act. I'm not terribly surprised that the symbolism of the act became the story.
      - sep_field 6y ago
        it's like a condom for your face. What's not to love? I plan to keep wearing it even after this is all over. In smarter countries, people wear masks whenever they are sick as a thoughtful courtesy to protect those around them. I'd like to see that attitude worldwide.
        timr 6y ago
        > it's like a condom for your face. What's not to love? I know you're being cheeky here, but just to be serious for a moment: there's a HUGE literature on the subject of condom use and public-health messaging from the 80s and the HIV crisis. Condoms are...not exactly popular, of course (the TL;DR is that shaming doesn't work very well. Honesty and education >> scolding and shaming when it comes to behavioral change that is intimate and unpleasant). It's continually astounding to me how many lessons from that pandemic seem to have been forgotten.
- DaniloDias 6y ago
  Everyone I’ve seen for the last year has been wearing masks. Masks either don’t work in a meaningful way, or this pandemic is not meaningfully stopped by masks. Our inability to stop exponential growth is not embarrassing. It is frightening how little the average human truly understands about exponential growth.
  - Arainach 6y ago
    Your reasoning is incorrect. This virus is incredibly contagious. Just because we haven't been able to reduce R0 below one doesn't mean that precautions haven't been having a significant effect. In a downpour, a car's windshield wipers may not be able to move fast enough to provide clear vision. This doesn't mean that they don't work or aren't making a significant improvement.
  - pbourke 6y ago
    And have you been following people into their homes to see if they meet indoors, maskless, with those not in their household?
ben_w 6y ago
Yes, the have been peer-reviewed studies which demonstrate effectiveness: https://files.nc.gov/covid/documents/info-for/The-effectiveness-of-face-masks-to-prevent-SARS-CoV.pdf https://files.nc.gov/covid/documents/info-for/The-effectiven... All masks have some improvement over the absence of a mask. High-end masks have been mandatory in Berlin supermarkets for a while now.
jasonvorhe 6y ago
This gives a good overview over the current state of scientific research wrt mask usage in general: https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-02801-8 https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-02801-8 tl:dr: Some indicators point to masks being useful but the data isn't conclusive and a lot of other factors might impact the data (such as other covid-19 related measures that help in keeping infection rates low) but these two quotes should be sufficient reason to wear them: “There’s a lot more we would like to know,” says Vos, who contributed to the analysis. “But given that it is such a simple, low-cost intervention with potentially such a large impact, who would not want to use it?” It’s not the only solution, says Gandhi, “but I think it is a profoundly important pillar of pandemic control”. As Digard puts it: “Masks work, but they are not infallible. And, therefore, keep your distance.”
Bancakes 6y ago
Yeah some people have done simulations to show the spread of particles with and without a mask. That's enough for me, I trust physics over correlational statistics.
tzs 6y ago
If you have someone you live in close enough contact with that you are already going to be sharing any respiratory illnesses, you can do a simple experiment. Have them stand across the room from you, without wearing a mask, and have them cough at you. Then have them move a step closer and do it again. Note where you can first feel the cough. Then repeat but with them wearing a mask. You should find that they have to get much closer. Second experiment. Having them at the place they ended up after the first experiment, have them cough at you without their mask on. Not subjectively how much cough seems to have reached you. Now have them put on their mask, and repeatedly cough at you until you feel the same total amount of cough has reached you. You should find that it takes many more coughs on their part. For a virus that is expelled when you expel air and then sinks rather than lingering indefinitely anything that reduces the horizontal range of someone's expulsions, such as the above experiments demonstrate masks do, must decrease the number of viruses you will get from someone who is spreading it when you pass by them.
aphroz 6y ago
Can we still question things, genuinely ? I think the most harmful consequence in the long term will be how we will accept to follow orders without questioning it. I have read different articles saying that no measures have been proven efficient against COVID. I think that many countries will use the masks to make people feel safe and keep going to work. Asian countries have been testing and isolating, while western countries let people work even when they are sick, by using masks.

throwaway45349 6y ago

Some are medically exempt. This mask-or-else culture pushes those people out of society, totally unfairly.

ChrisRR 6y ago
No, It has been determined time and time again that if you have a respiratory illness that means you're struggling to breathe so much that you can't breathe with a mask on, that puts you in the extremely high risk category from covid The only legitimate reasons are associated with anxiety issues, which aren't medically exempt.
mike_d 6y ago
According to the chief medical officer for the American Lung Association, the only legitimate medical exemption is people who are on supplemental oxygen. Even patients with chronic lung disease can wear a non-N95 mask with no detrimental effects. The CDC does recognize intellectual and developmental disabilities as legitimate medical exemptions, which I believe is the most common case we are seeing the US.

ben_w 6y ago

On the one hand I agree with you. On the other hand, saying it didn’t make it so for HIV and condoms. Policy must account for people not all doing the correct thing; for people who think it’s overblown or a conspiracy; etc.

sep_field 6y ago
Fines and jail time would be a start at correcting policy. Especially jail time for cops who refuse to wear masks.
- ben_w 6y ago
  Fines I agree with, thought I suspect jail would make things worse. Not just because jail is a health risk all by itself, but because compliance with the law depends on people collectively agreeing that the law is just, and excessive punishment does the opposite (or so I hear).
  - sep_field 6y ago
    yeah I think jail is best reserved for cops and politicians.