6 ms·

Using socketed M.2 SSDs introduces a class of problems ("the SSD isn't seated correctly") and also makes the device thicker. There are probably other reasons bu

by jolux 6y ago

Using socketed M.2 SSDs introduces a class of problems ("the SSD isn't seated correctly") and also makes the device thicker. There are probably other reasons but I'll bet those are the two big ones.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
StillBored 6y ago
The socket doesn't have to be on top of a pcb, given apple's history of "tweaking" standards its hard to believe the thicker argument. Given how reliable m.2 is (I've personally never seen a problem with one that seems to be seating related). I'm betting socketing the SSD actually makes the device more reliable long term since your looking at just replacing a disk in a couple years if it fails vs basically replacing the entire motherboard, which has got to be the most expensive part. So, this is likely just penny pinching the manufacture, and assuming the customer will bear the repair fee if it breaks.
- kmeisthax 6y ago
  You're thinking about reliability in a different way from Apple. By the time the SSD fails, it's not Apple's problem anymore, it's your problem. (Or, more likely, Louis Rossman's problem.) Conversely, an SSD that gets jostled out of a socket if the product gets bumped the wrong way (maybe because the courier kicked the package around) means time and money spent on in-warranty repairs. Also, Apple never actually used M.2. All of their socketed SSDs are proprietary form factors, though there are cheap adapters you can buy that will let you use M.2 drives.
  - StillBored 6y ago
    <i>an SSD that gets jostled out of a socket if the product gets bumped the wrong way</i> You know the other side of m.2 is screwed in, right? Anything that manages to "jostle" a m.2 drive out of the socket has likely also destroyed the machine.
webmobdev 6y ago
> Using socketed M.2 SSDs introduces a class of problems ("the SSD isn't seated correctly") I can't get around to how people say such stuff with a straight face - Apple is a 20-30 year old trillion dollar hardware company and its engineers can design high-tech processors, but apparently can't ensure that a RAM or SSD remains fixed in a slot? Do you really believe that? > There are probably other reasons Sure there are, and I'll list the major ones - planned obsolescence (soldered parts are harder to repair) and increased profits through price gauging on upgrades.
- foldr 6y ago
  > planned obsolescence (soldered parts are harder to repair) and increased profits through price gauging on upgrades. Neither of these really makes sense. Planned obsolescence: Apple laptops retain their resale value for a very long time. Even if 8GB of RAM is no longer enough for you, there are plenty of people who'll still be able to use the device for many more years. The days are long over where computers became obsolete after a few years without upgrades. Price gauging on upgrades: Almost everyone buys the base configuration, and almost no-one upgraded RAM or HD even when the hardware used to allow it. Whatever increased profit Apple are making from upgrades is going to be absolutely tiny. If Apple really wanted to price gauge on upgrades, they'd at least stock the 16GB models in stores. My guess is that it's barely worth Apple's while to make these models at all, in a purely economic sense. What you're paying for isn't the cost of the RAM/storage itself, but the money necessary to make it worth the bother of making additional models which almost no-one buys.
  - webmobdev 6y ago
    > Planned obsolescence: Apple laptops retain their resale value for a very long time. Planned obsolescence here means limiting upgrades and repairs, and making repairs or replacement so costly that you prefer to buy a new device if the current model develops performance issues or has hardware failures. With the M1 this is even worse now as you can't even run other base OSes on it reliably, thus making its users susceptible to systemic obsolescence (not including hardware or software compatibility when the OS is upgraded). It has nothing to do with the resale value of a product. (It is a humbug argument as nobody can predict what the value of your device will be tomorrow if some newer technology comes along. Moreover, soldered parts and non-user-replaceable battery actually make such laptops even less desirable in the seconds market because they cannot be upgraded, unlike the older Apple laptops). > Almost everyone buys the base configuration, and almost no-one upgraded RAM or HD I'd really like to know your source for this. > What you're paying for isn't the cost of the RAM/storage itself, but the money necessary to make it worth the bother of making additional models which almost no-one buys. Again, share your source for this really ridiculous argument - they wouldn't need to bother with all this if they didn't solder the parts in the first place.
zelon88 6y ago
Plain and simple, they don't want you to take their devices apart. They use hardware and techniques that are extremely anti-consumer. From non-standard form factors, to non-serviceable components, to literally fighting against Right-To-Repair in 20 states [1]. And then when you hold out on them they push you updates to sandbag your performance. Why so many tech professionals and hackers still swear by this company and feign surprise everytime they get shafted by proprietary design choices is baffling and frustrating. If they wanted you to play inside, they wouldn't use torque screws. If they wanted you to replace that, they wouldn't have glued it together. If you were supposed to take the keyboard off there wouldn't be 60+ screws (literally) holding it on. You're supposed to be a good consumer and consume this one so you can buy a new one. [1] https://www.theverge.com/2020/7/30/21348240/apple-right-to-repair-legislation-antitrust-investigation-policy https://www.theverge.com/2020/7/30/21348240/apple-right-to-r...
- dannyw 6y ago
  While I agree with your argument, I want to call out a specific point: > If they wanted you to play inside, they wouldn't use torque screws Torque screws are superior to Phillips heads because they are far more resistant to cam-out; which is a bigger problem than needing to buy a screwdriver kit for $10 off eBay once in your life.
  - Shared404 6y ago
    > Torque screws are superior to Phillips heads because they are far more resistant to cam-out[.] I work at a repair shop currently, and can confirm this. Give me a Torq or a hex screw any day over a Phillips head. You do have to be careful with them though, because once they do cam out, you're pretty much dead in the water, while with Phillips you can often hack your way around it. Edit: I also agree with the rest of the argument. If you've got the budget (and I assume that if Apple is an option, you do), please consider buying something with Linux officially supported. Between Dell, Lenovo, and smaller scale setups like System76, there are plenty of options.
    - rbanffy 6y ago
flyinghamster 6y ago
How could an M.2 SSD be seated incorrectly? It's either in and screwed down or it isn't. As for making the machine thicker, this obsession with shaving every last micron off has become almost cartoonish. I'll take serviceability and good keyboard travel over fashion statements any day, even if my laptop has to be a millimeter or two thicker because of it. Once that soldered-in SSD goes, that expensive fashion statement is just more e-waste.
- uncledave 6y ago
  With this was true. The M2 design is terrible from an engineering perspective both mechanically and thermally. At best the mounting is a hack job. I agree with the problem though. M2 is just a crappy answer to it.
brokenmachine 6y ago
Come on man, nobody has problems with their SSD not being seated correctly with any other brand. There are screws to hold them in, they're not going anywhere. The thickness thing - how thick is an M.2 SSD? 3mm? Get real. Apple is consumer-hostile and their products are disposable, that's all there is to it.

by jolux 6y ago

Using socketed M.2 SSDs introduces a class of problems ("the SSD isn't seated correctly") and also makes the device thicker. There are probably other reasons but I'll bet those are the two big ones.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

StillBored 6y ago

The socket doesn't have to be on top of a pcb, given apple's history of "tweaking" standards its hard to believe the thicker argument. Given how reliable m.2 is (I've personally never seen a problem with one that seems to be seating related). I'm betting socketing the SSD actually makes the device more reliable long term since your looking at just replacing a disk in a couple years if it fails vs basically replacing the entire motherboard, which has got to be the most expensive part. So, this is likely just penny pinching the manufacture, and assuming the customer will bear the repair fee if it breaks.

kmeisthax 6y ago
You're thinking about reliability in a different way from Apple. By the time the SSD fails, it's not Apple's problem anymore, it's your problem. (Or, more likely, Louis Rossman's problem.) Conversely, an SSD that gets jostled out of a socket if the product gets bumped the wrong way (maybe because the courier kicked the package around) means time and money spent on in-warranty repairs. Also, Apple never actually used M.2. All of their socketed SSDs are proprietary form factors, though there are cheap adapters you can buy that will let you use M.2 drives.
- StillBored 6y ago
  <i>an SSD that gets jostled out of a socket if the product gets bumped the wrong way</i> You know the other side of m.2 is screwed in, right? Anything that manages to "jostle" a m.2 drive out of the socket has likely also destroyed the machine.

webmobdev 6y ago

> Using socketed M.2 SSDs introduces a class of problems ("the SSD isn't seated correctly") I can't get around to how people say such stuff with a straight face - Apple is a 20-30 year old trillion dollar hardware company and its engineers can design high-tech processors, but apparently can't ensure that a RAM or SSD remains fixed in a slot? Do you really believe that? > There are probably other reasons Sure there are, and I'll list the major ones - planned obsolescence (soldered parts are harder to repair) and increased profits through price gauging on upgrades.

foldr 6y ago
> planned obsolescence (soldered parts are harder to repair) and increased profits through price gauging on upgrades. Neither of these really makes sense. Planned obsolescence: Apple laptops retain their resale value for a very long time. Even if 8GB of RAM is no longer enough for you, there are plenty of people who'll still be able to use the device for many more years. The days are long over where computers became obsolete after a few years without upgrades. Price gauging on upgrades: Almost everyone buys the base configuration, and almost no-one upgraded RAM or HD even when the hardware used to allow it. Whatever increased profit Apple are making from upgrades is going to be absolutely tiny. If Apple really wanted to price gauge on upgrades, they'd at least stock the 16GB models in stores. My guess is that it's barely worth Apple's while to make these models at all, in a purely economic sense. What you're paying for isn't the cost of the RAM/storage itself, but the money necessary to make it worth the bother of making additional models which almost no-one buys.
- webmobdev 6y ago
  > Planned obsolescence: Apple laptops retain their resale value for a very long time. Planned obsolescence here means limiting upgrades and repairs, and making repairs or replacement so costly that you prefer to buy a new device if the current model develops performance issues or has hardware failures. With the M1 this is even worse now as you can't even run other base OSes on it reliably, thus making its users susceptible to systemic obsolescence (not including hardware or software compatibility when the OS is upgraded). It has nothing to do with the resale value of a product. (It is a humbug argument as nobody can predict what the value of your device will be tomorrow if some newer technology comes along. Moreover, soldered parts and non-user-replaceable battery actually make such laptops even less desirable in the seconds market because they cannot be upgraded, unlike the older Apple laptops). > Almost everyone buys the base configuration, and almost no-one upgraded RAM or HD I'd really like to know your source for this. > What you're paying for isn't the cost of the RAM/storage itself, but the money necessary to make it worth the bother of making additional models which almost no-one buys. Again, share your source for this really ridiculous argument - they wouldn't need to bother with all this if they didn't solder the parts in the first place.

zelon88 6y ago

Plain and simple, they don't want you to take their devices apart. They use hardware and techniques that are extremely anti-consumer. From non-standard form factors, to non-serviceable components, to literally fighting against Right-To-Repair in 20 states [1]. And then when you hold out on them they push you updates to sandbag your performance. Why so many tech professionals and hackers still swear by this company and feign surprise everytime they get shafted by proprietary design choices is baffling and frustrating. If they wanted you to play inside, they wouldn't use torque screws. If they wanted you to replace that, they wouldn't have glued it together. If you were supposed to take the keyboard off there wouldn't be 60+ screws (literally) holding it on. You're supposed to be a good consumer and consume this one so you can buy a new one. [1] https://www.theverge.com/2020/7/30/21348240/apple-right-to-repair-legislation-antitrust-investigation-policy https://www.theverge.com/2020/7/30/21348240/apple-right-to-r...

dannyw 6y ago
While I agree with your argument, I want to call out a specific point: > If they wanted you to play inside, they wouldn't use torque screws Torque screws are superior to Phillips heads because they are far more resistant to cam-out; which is a bigger problem than needing to buy a screwdriver kit for $10 off eBay once in your life.
- Shared404 6y ago
  > Torque screws are superior to Phillips heads because they are far more resistant to cam-out[.] I work at a repair shop currently, and can confirm this. Give me a Torq or a hex screw any day over a Phillips head. You do have to be careful with them though, because once they do cam out, you're pretty much dead in the water, while with Phillips you can often hack your way around it. Edit: I also agree with the rest of the argument. If you've got the budget (and I assume that if Apple is an option, you do), please consider buying something with Linux officially supported. Between Dell, Lenovo, and smaller scale setups like System76, there are plenty of options.
  - rbanffy 6y ago

flyinghamster 6y ago

How could an M.2 SSD be seated incorrectly? It's either in and screwed down or it isn't. As for making the machine thicker, this obsession with shaving every last micron off has become almost cartoonish. I'll take serviceability and good keyboard travel over fashion statements any day, even if my laptop has to be a millimeter or two thicker because of it. Once that soldered-in SSD goes, that expensive fashion statement is just more e-waste.

uncledave 6y ago
With this was true. The M2 design is terrible from an engineering perspective both mechanically and thermally. At best the mounting is a hack job. I agree with the problem though. M2 is just a crappy answer to it.

brokenmachine 6y ago

Come on man, nobody has problems with their SSD not being seated correctly with any other brand. There are screws to hold them in, they're not going anywhere. The thickness thing - how thick is an M.2 SSD? 3mm? Get real. Apple is consumer-hostile and their products are disposable, that's all there is to it.