7 ms·

Tesla has made $1B profit on its Bitcoin investment

27 points by prostoalex 6y ago

ceejayoz 6y ago
Is there a way to know if they offloaded before Musk called it overpriced? Do they have to report sales like they would shares?
- hackonr 6y ago
  > "It’s unclear if Tesla has sold any of the bitcoin yet."
yreg 6y ago
Compared to $721M they made in 2020 in total.
- Pyramus 6y ago
  $721M from tax credits. It's more than Tesla made from selling cars, ever.
user-the-name 6y ago
Not "profit". "Paper profit". Very, very different thing, especially when it comes to Bitcoin. Plus, the price tanked since this article was written.
- NoOneNew 6y ago
  That's where a lot of people get confused on "wealth". A majority of the top 100 richest folks dont have that liquid. Sure, they can borrow against their assets, but that does change their wealth status in some ways. Musk doesn't have 185b in bills that he can go make it rain at a strip club. In some sense, the whole stock wealth count is weird since as you offload your stock at a large volume, you tank the value. Dropping your wealth even more. Paper profit, accounting wealth, assetable value, and whatever else its called gets weird when you think about it in practical terms.
  - statstutor 6y ago
    Why would you need liquid 185b? Why would you take 185b to the strip club? (I would even dispute your claim - I assume that strippers would absolutely not mind if you brought them 185b of paper assets). Even if it takes a lifetime to see that value, you have a Richie Rich [edit: I mean, Brewster's Millions] problem of how to spend it. Employing people's labour or buying capital is expected and won't tank the value - and what else would you want to do with it?
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - bidirectional 6y ago
    Do they? This type of comment is posted everywhere as if it is some kind of revelation. I think maybe young children think that, but I'd imagine the average adult has grasped the idea that Musk is rich because he owns companies. And they more often do have it liquid, publicly traded stocks are a liquid asset. They can also convert it into cash far more easily than you seem to imply, Bezos sells billions in Amazon stock every year, Gates owns ~2% of Microsoft now down from 25% in the 90s, etc. Sure if Bezos decided tomorrow to flood the market the price would plummet, but he could easily put together a plan for selling his share over the next few years, especially now he is no longer CEO.
    - vp8989 6y ago
      "but he could easily put together a plan for selling his share over the next few years, especially now he is no longer CEO" That doesn't sound very liquid to me.
      - bidirectional 6y ago
        Stocks are liquid assets by definition.
    - NoOneNew 6y ago
      I dont have a revelation what so ever. I think 80%+ of HN users easily know about this. But there are some that dont. It's not a bad idea to just throw out, every now and then, a simple explanation for people to start of a rabbit hole education on the topic who are unaware. Also, to me, it's interesting to think about in terms about how fragile and kind of weird weath perception is. We think Musk is the "richest", but it's not like he is rich enough to move that amount of money around at his whim. I bet there are lower tier rich people with more cash that in a practical aspect, we would think of richer when it comes to speed of use. Like, if you needed to borrow $1k from a friend to help for rent/mortgage next week. Who can help you faster, the one with $1k in hand or the one with $10k in assets and can get you the $1k in 2 weeks after unloading (a little hyperbolic, I know)? I'm not saying one is better than the other either. What is more useful, $100k in a safe or a $100k Haas CNC mill? I say the cnc. But you can say the 100k in cash has better opportunity potential, especially if the cnc doesn't work out, including the immediate 25% devaluing since it's now "used". Which is true too. Again, no revelation. Just interesting to remind yourself from time to time and if someone doesn't know about this already, it's nice to enlighten them. Plus the idea of money and value gets super weird when you realize how easy it is to manipulate.
bondarchuk 6y ago
If you haven't sold then you haven't made a profit.
- capableweb 6y ago
  I guess with that same mindset Jeff Bezos, Bill Gates and Mark Zuckerberg aren't probably the worlds richest as they have their money locked up in assets etc. Only drug lords should count on the list of the richest as they are the only ones holding money in actual cash (together with assets etc).
  - bluesign 6y ago
    It is not about locked up on asset, it is about locked up on volatile asset vs stable asset.
    - capableweb 6y ago
      No, that's not at all what bondarchuk said. bondarchuk hinted that if you don't have the cash from selling something, you can't count that as making a profit, as you haven't actually taken any profit. Why would it matter if it's volatile or stable?
      - leereeves 6y ago
        It might matter to someone who wants their headline to still be true in two days, which this headline isn't at the moment, after Bitcoin's recent drop. The value of any asset might change significantly in two days, but the odds of that are much, much higher with Bitcoin.
        capableweb 6y ago
        Yeah, if you're into a life that doesn't move forward, I don't think you have a lot of options. Many of our headlines today are ephemeral and true for now, but historically becomes false after a while. Bitcoin is no exception.
statstutor 6y ago
Bitcoin is down ~20% since this article was published, 2 days ago.
tradri 6y ago
2 bubbles supporting each other.
- adventured 6y ago
  There isn't much support there. Telsa's bubble is over. It's extraordinarily unlikely it'll be worth more than $900 / share 10 or 20 years from now. The treasury party that has begun is starting to rob the mania of its precious fuel and it doesn't take much to break a mania. The Fed is going to have to do a lot more if they want to stave off plunging asset prices, as rising mortgage rates will tank housing activity as well.
  - estaseuropano 6y ago
    TSL is still massively overvalued in any possible relation to its fundamentals.
max_ 6y ago
Elon Musk is the master of marketing
jacknews 6y ago
Did they sell? If not, they bought, say, 50k bitcoin, and they now have 50k bitcoin. But I agree this whole thing is ludicrous, that they stand to make more than an entire year of profit in a single speculation.
- waynesonfire 6y ago
  It seems easy in hindsight.

27 points by prostoalex 6y ago

Is there a way to know if they offloaded before Musk called it overpriced? Do they have to report sales like they would shares?

hackonr 6y ago
> "It’s unclear if Tesla has sold any of the bitcoin yet."

yreg 6y ago

Compared to $721M they made in 2020 in total.

Pyramus 6y ago
$721M from tax credits. It's more than Tesla made from selling cars, ever.

user-the-name 6y ago

Not "profit". "Paper profit". Very, very different thing, especially when it comes to Bitcoin. Plus, the price tanked since this article was written.

NoOneNew 6y ago
That's where a lot of people get confused on "wealth". A majority of the top 100 richest folks dont have that liquid. Sure, they can borrow against their assets, but that does change their wealth status in some ways. Musk doesn't have 185b in bills that he can go make it rain at a strip club. In some sense, the whole stock wealth count is weird since as you offload your stock at a large volume, you tank the value. Dropping your wealth even more. Paper profit, accounting wealth, assetable value, and whatever else its called gets weird when you think about it in practical terms.
- statstutor 6y ago
  Why would you need liquid 185b? Why would you take 185b to the strip club? (I would even dispute your claim - I assume that strippers would absolutely not mind if you brought them 185b of paper assets). Even if it takes a lifetime to see that value, you have a Richie Rich [edit: I mean, Brewster's Millions] problem of how to spend it. Employing people's labour or buying capital is expected and won't tank the value - and what else would you want to do with it?
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- bidirectional 6y ago
  Do they? This type of comment is posted everywhere as if it is some kind of revelation. I think maybe young children think that, but I'd imagine the average adult has grasped the idea that Musk is rich because he owns companies. And they more often do have it liquid, publicly traded stocks are a liquid asset. They can also convert it into cash far more easily than you seem to imply, Bezos sells billions in Amazon stock every year, Gates owns ~2% of Microsoft now down from 25% in the 90s, etc. Sure if Bezos decided tomorrow to flood the market the price would plummet, but he could easily put together a plan for selling his share over the next few years, especially now he is no longer CEO.
  - vp8989 6y ago
    "but he could easily put together a plan for selling his share over the next few years, especially now he is no longer CEO" That doesn't sound very liquid to me.
    - bidirectional 6y ago
      Stocks are liquid assets by definition.
  - NoOneNew 6y ago
    I dont have a revelation what so ever. I think 80%+ of HN users easily know about this. But there are some that dont. It's not a bad idea to just throw out, every now and then, a simple explanation for people to start of a rabbit hole education on the topic who are unaware. Also, to me, it's interesting to think about in terms about how fragile and kind of weird weath perception is. We think Musk is the "richest", but it's not like he is rich enough to move that amount of money around at his whim. I bet there are lower tier rich people with more cash that in a practical aspect, we would think of richer when it comes to speed of use. Like, if you needed to borrow $1k from a friend to help for rent/mortgage next week. Who can help you faster, the one with $1k in hand or the one with $10k in assets and can get you the $1k in 2 weeks after unloading (a little hyperbolic, I know)? I'm not saying one is better than the other either. What is more useful, $100k in a safe or a $100k Haas CNC mill? I say the cnc. But you can say the 100k in cash has better opportunity potential, especially if the cnc doesn't work out, including the immediate 25% devaluing since it's now "used". Which is true too. Again, no revelation. Just interesting to remind yourself from time to time and if someone doesn't know about this already, it's nice to enlighten them. Plus the idea of money and value gets super weird when you realize how easy it is to manipulate.

bondarchuk 6y ago

If you haven't sold then you haven't made a profit.

capableweb 6y ago
I guess with that same mindset Jeff Bezos, Bill Gates and Mark Zuckerberg aren't probably the worlds richest as they have their money locked up in assets etc. Only drug lords should count on the list of the richest as they are the only ones holding money in actual cash (together with assets etc).
- bluesign 6y ago
  It is not about locked up on asset, it is about locked up on volatile asset vs stable asset.
  - capableweb 6y ago
    No, that's not at all what bondarchuk said. bondarchuk hinted that if you don't have the cash from selling something, you can't count that as making a profit, as you haven't actually taken any profit. Why would it matter if it's volatile or stable?
    - leereeves 6y ago
      It might matter to someone who wants their headline to still be true in two days, which this headline isn't at the moment, after Bitcoin's recent drop. The value of any asset might change significantly in two days, but the odds of that are much, much higher with Bitcoin.
      - capableweb 6y ago
        Yeah, if you're into a life that doesn't move forward, I don't think you have a lot of options. Many of our headlines today are ephemeral and true for now, but historically becomes false after a while. Bitcoin is no exception.

statstutor 6y ago

Bitcoin is down ~20% since this article was published, 2 days ago.

tradri 6y ago

2 bubbles supporting each other.

adventured 6y ago
There isn't much support there. Telsa's bubble is over. It's extraordinarily unlikely it'll be worth more than $900 / share 10 or 20 years from now. The treasury party that has begun is starting to rob the mania of its precious fuel and it doesn't take much to break a mania. The Fed is going to have to do a lot more if they want to stave off plunging asset prices, as rising mortgage rates will tank housing activity as well.
- estaseuropano 6y ago
  TSL is still massively overvalued in any possible relation to its fundamentals.

max_ 6y ago

Elon Musk is the master of marketing

jacknews 6y ago

Did they sell? If not, they bought, say, 50k bitcoin, and they now have 50k bitcoin. But I agree this whole thing is ludicrous, that they stand to make more than an entire year of profit in a single speculation.

waynesonfire 6y ago
It seems easy in hindsight.