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As someone who has had to do IVF for our child and go through the challenge of figuring our what to do to try and improve sperm quality, I can tell you once you
by jonplackett 6y ago
As someone who has had to do IVF for our child and go through the challenge of figuring our what to do to try and improve sperm quality, I can tell you once you start looking into it, basically everything about modern life is bad for sperm. Heat, radiation, plastic, micro plastics, soya, tap water, Teflon, antibacterial soap, underpants, western diet. It’s a perfect storm.
If you’re going though it though I offer a ray of hope that it was possible to sufficiently avoid these things, at least temporarily, and it made a very large difference (4X better within 6 months) and resulted in a now 3 year old child.
- mpfundstein 6y agoi dont know. i did all of the bad stuff and surely wasnt a very health aware person (smoking, drinking, weed, late nights, slight overweight, city life) but got my wife pregnant within one period cycle and we did that two times (two kids). its probably a factor. but very nice to hear that it worked out for you. most have been a stressful period
- jonplackett 6y agoWell, lucky you I guess. For some of us it’s a harder road and requires more work. For me, cutting out those things did make a difference on multiple tests that trended up as I cut these things out. All of the above have varying degrees of evidence to support that they affect sperm. The problem is that you’re on a tight deadline and have no time to isolate your variables. Your only option is to go 100% on everything.
- WA 6y agoSoy isn't that easy: https://www.health.harvard.edu/newsletter_article/Medical-memo-Soy-and-sperm https://www.health.harvard.edu/newsletter_article/Medical-me... There was one study with 99 participants. A counter argument is Asia, where men eat a lot more soy and don't have reduced sperm count.
- chaostheory 6y agoIsn't the difference in Asia because they eat less processed soy compared to the US and EU?
- arp242 6y agoI can't speak for other Asian countries, but here in Indonesia tofu and tempeh (fermented soybeans) are a lot more common than in Europe.
- jesperlang 6y agoI was eating lots of miso, tofu and soy sauce when I lived in japan without issue. In europe i tried soy milk once and got an instant allergic reaction (itchy soar throat). The difference being soy milk is just soaked, ground up, boiled soy bean..
- DoreenMichele 6y agoSomeone once told me allergic reaction to soy may actually be allergic reaction to GMO soy, not soy per se. There may be very different stats from one country to another on how much GMO soy gets used.
- buildbot 6y agoCan you link a study that shows GMO soy having different proteins that would cause a specific reaction vs. non gmo? Otherwise it seems like you are hear to just spread anti gmo fud, which really hurts actual discourse around GMOs.
- DoreenMichele 6y agoI replied to one person who said they consumed a lot of soy in one situation with zero problem and then reacted really strongly and negatively to soy in another and I suggested a possible explanation, a possible difference between the two soy sources. I did so as food for thought for that one individual and I don't really care what anyone else thinks of the comment.
- admiral33 6y ago4x is a large jump, is that referring to sperm count? It might be anecdata but given that you were seeing a fertility specialist it could be more valuable to hear your lifestyle changes rather than much of the noise that is out there.
- jonplackett 6y agoIt’s certainly anecdata since it’s just me but it was multiple tests over that period and showed a steady increase from not going to work for IVF to the level where it would. They test a number of things from total count, count per ml, motility, correctness of shape. Everything went up. The shape was my main issue and that was the thing that increased 4X I should say I also took some supplements too. The problem with all this is isolating your variables - since you’re on a very limited clock and sperm tests cost £200 you don’t have time or money to figure out which things made the most difference. You just try everything and hope you got some of the right things. All the things I listed above have some evidence for them affecting sperm so I just cut them all out.
- admiral33 6y agoHow did you cut out tap water, heat, microplastics, teflon, and the western diet?
- jonplackett 6y agoNot completely obviously! Micro plastics was hard since you kinda have to choose between bottled water or tap water! We got a water filter for this one. Heat meant loose underpants and no warm baths ever. Teflon- easy. Replace with a carbon steel pan. Improve your chef skills AND sperm! Western diet is basically high sugar and refined carbs. Just didn’t eat anything with refined sugar on the label in any amount whatsoever (I lost weight fast) also switched to organic meat and dairy to minimise antibiotics. Can’t say if that made any difference but at least I was being nicer to animals
- DoingIsLearning 6y ago
- colordrops 6y agoAnecdote: I avoided all these things and more out of pure hypochondria for decades, and I impregnated my wife the two times we didn't use some form of birth control. I even have a sort of tic I integrated where I pull my testicles out from between my legs when they get constricted, and hadn't remembered why I started doing that until you reminded me that I read something about heat being bad for sperm in the 90s.
- mrmonkeyman 6y agoAnecdote: same here, but did not avoid anything on that list.
- croisillon 6y agoYou seem to be kind of shadowban (not sure what the proper term is), you might want to write an email to the hn moderation to clear that up
- Nasrudith 6y agoIf you can reply to them they aren't shadowbanned.
- jonplackett 6y agoGood to have a counter point to the ‘I drink a pint of whisky at night and smoke crack every morning and I got my wife pregnant no problem’ argument!
- lupire 6y agoIt's not a counterpoint because no one says crack and whiskyt are required for pregnancy. It's a supporting point that sperm can develop without any particular specialized diet.
- jonplackett 6y agoI was exaggerating for effect, but this is actually the kind of 'advice' you get from people when having trouble conceiving. "We just got really drunk and stopped worrying an HEY, we made a baby! You Should try that!" OR "My best mate smokes a spliff every morning and they had a baby no problem, you shouldn't bother giving up caffeine" The 'advice' is almost as painful as the not conceiving.
- VectorLock 6y agoSo you started drinking bottled water, turned off the Wifi, eating sushi and going commando? Doesn't sound so bad, really.
- jonplackett 6y agoHaha. I unfortunately did take it a bit more seriously. There was a point where if someone offered me a biscuit with my decaf tea my inner monologue would say “if you eat that biscuit you might never have children”. It was at least in that way the easiest diet I ever went on. 100% motivation!
- ilyaeck 6y agoWhat's so wrong with a biscuit?
- will_pseudonym 6y agothe ingredients.
- jonplackett 6y agoLike I said, I was going for the nuclear option and biscuits have sugar in. Sugar makes you fat. Fat belly means less testosterone. This is part of the anti-western diet thing.
- dalbasal 6y agoAlso.. it's probably made of whichever processed grain/seed is worst and dosed with additives: preservatives, flavour, colour, texture. If something in food is bad for whatever reason, it's probably in the biscuit. I find it quite poetic that modern man needs to go live by a lake, foraging naked for a few months to regain our reproductive viability.
- jules 6y agoWhat were the things you did? Did it improve testosterone levels too? If that is the mechanism, could you raise sperm count with artificial testosterone? Or would that be counterproductive?
- forgotmypw17 6y agoYou said "temporarily", so I want to remind you that all the same things are harmful to a child's development, especially when their systems are just coming online and establishing their baselines.
- jonplackett 6y agoYes absolutely! Still doing the dietary things for her. She gets to have hot baths though, and wear tight fitting underpants. FYI anyone else reading, if you have a boy Teflon is really something you should avoid.
- dijit 6y agoHuh, all my trousers were coated in teflon when I was growing up. It was a prominent selling feature.
- forgotmypw17 6y agoSo are pizza boxes and microwave popcorn bags
- jonplackett 6y agoAnd the same stuff is in waterproof coatings and easy clean carpet coatings and other such things.
- Lammy 6y agoGood parenting is forcing your boy children to take cold baths because you need their sperm to carry on your legacy.
- forgotmypw17 6y agoCold baths is a bit far, but pouring a bucket of cold water over them has many health benefits, including immune function.
- M5x7wI3CmbEem10 6y agoantibacterial soap, too? how do you keep yourself clean? and underpants, how? because of how tight they are?
- Aachen 6y ago> antibacterial soap, too? how do you keep yourself clean? Regular soap?
- jonplackett 6y agoExactly. Antibacterial soap is marketing BS. Soap already kills bacteria. As it has done since it was invented. Proof point- look how hard antibacterial soap is being advertised during the pandemic, which is cause by a frikkin VIRUS
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- aaronmdjones 6y agoCOVID-19 is surrounded by a lipid envelope; soaps break down lipids.
- duckmysick 6y agoYes, and you don't need an anitbacterial soap for that. A regular soap will be fine.
- aaronmdjones 6y agoYeah, but jon worded it like antibacterial soap would be ineffective (due to this being a virus), but it's not.
- 6y ago
- scns 6y agoTim Ferris wrote about radiation from mobile phones reducing sperm count in rats, and tested it on himself (as he usually does). Banned the mobile from his pants and got one of those attach it to your arm thingies. Spermcount went up.
- Manifretto 6y agoTim Ferris is half conartist half motivation speaker.
- andy_ppp 6y agoI don't really love his shtick generally (a bit too try hard and salesman for my liking) but I think he's honest and not trying to con anyone. For example I tried the slow carb diet he proposes and I lost tonnes of weight.
- Manifretto 6y agoHe is probably coning on a subtile not relevant level. I googled his SCD and yes its the same schema f with his book and everything else he does. It is not new at all. His website uses the same technics to promote 'his' revolutionary things while never ever having done anthing new anything relevant at all. And i read his 4-hour workweek. I payed for that book. His charisma triggerd me to get it. This still doesn't mean he ever achieved anything you haven't read in any other blog or whatever. He is selling himself very well. I personally would not be proud of myself though if i had his 'career'.
- Bakary 6y ago>I personally would not be proud of myself though if i had his 'career'. It's interesting how we are primed to assume a psychological burden for anyone who is financially successful. Perhaps to help ourselves cope? I'm not singling your comment out specifically, as I often have the same reaction. For all we know, Ferriss is probably highly satisfied, completely at ease with himself, and enjoying a great and varied existence.
- 74d-fe6-2c6 6y agoIf those things are bad for sperm count I'd expect them to be bad for the rest of the body as well. Sperm count is probably just a convenient metric which reveals the detrimental impact.
- nimbleal 6y agoIn my (layman’s) review of related literature, this seems to be the case. I’ve gone through phases of looking into for eg. what might optimise lean mass, testosterone, longevity, decrease cancer risk, sperm count etc. It’s all basically the same stuff. Unsurprising, really.
- Onewildgamer 6y agoCan you share your study/findings? It'll help me and others who are searching for the same.
- nimbleal 6y agoI’m afraid I don’t have comprehensive notes, but it’s not very complicated or new (perhaps disappointingly). Maintain a lowish bodyfat (10-15% for males, I think 20-30% for females), consume sufficient nutrients (including non-famous ones like k2) but lower-than-you’d-think calories, get enough but maybe not too much sleep, minimise stress, avoid endocrine disrupters (though if memory serves evidence here is thin), cold and hot treatments both have potential benefits (e.g suana), exercise is good (both aerobic and resistance). Fasting and/or low carb can improve the efficacy of radiotherapy in cancer treatment. Things like that.
- Bombthecat 6y agoYou... avoided all that? How? You didn't wear underpants or what?
- Hendrikto 6y agoOne can wear underwear, just not tight-fitting. There is a reason balls are free-hanging. They should not get too warm.
- tubularhells 6y agoWhy would you need underwear when you could just freeball every day?
- hypertele-Xii 6y agoI'm not the parent poster, but here's my take: Heat - Live somewhere North. There's very little of it. Radiation - No wi-fi at home, put phone in breast pocket. Plastic, micro plastics - Never buy anything plastic, if possible. Buy food whole in paper bags from local market; prefer glass and carboard containers. Buy cotton/silk/etc clothing, never anything made of poly-anything. Tap water - Live where it's clean. Teflon - All my cookware and utensils are titanium, steel, or wood. No aluminium, no coatings. Antibacterial soap - Buy the simplest, free-est of additives soap you can, intended for sensitive skin and allergics. Wash clothes with Sapindus saponaria fruit ("soap berries") and vinegar. Underpants - Just don't wear them. An interesting side-effect of such a clean lifestyle is that a fungus clogs my drain about twice a year, since my graywater has no chemicals in it. Had to learn to take it apart and clean it :)
- gremlinsinc 6y agoWe had to use donor sperm, and even then we had 8 miscarriages and 8 rounds of ivf. Every time it was at 5 weeks and 5 days. Doctor finally figured out Wife had an autoimmune disorder (presumed) and 10 mg of prednisone during first trimester solved it, for the next 2 out of 3 ivf cycles to get our 2 little boys. She had cancer cells though so had to have a full hysterectomy so we're likely done unless we adopt now... It was horrible and miserable but our boys are wonderful and amazing. So it was worth it. Honestly, I'd given up and really was just "okay" with things but it meant "more" to wife her being Mormon (me ex-mormon) there's some cultural stuff there. Now that I'm a dad though, wouldn't trade it for anything - love my boys and have grown a ton since having them, I can't even explain how life is different as a dad and before having kids. TLDR: Sometimes simple things like 10mg of a steroid to stunt immune system can solve the issue, if you have a recurring miscarriages anyways.
- riffraff 6y agoI have nothing to add to this topic, but I just want to send you a virtual hug, we had one miscarriage and it was bad, I can't even imagine how you'd feel after 8.
- fertilitythrow1 6y agoSimilar for us - trouble conceiving and a miscarriage. Months spent improving sperm. All conventional checks on mother came back as fine - "keep trying!" they kept telling us, while writing "unexplained infertility" on our medical records. Still nothing happening. IVF was on the horizon, but a private consultant identified some trouble with "natural killer" cells in mother. No other issues with mother (no cancer like parent post) Prednisolone (IIRC) and some lipid infusions and baby was conceived and delivered naturally. Drugs cost maybe £80 a month (although all the diagnostic checks and stuff was much more - start to finish (including like 12 ultrasound checks and multiple sessions with the consultants) we spent perhaps about £8-10K) - conceived on second month of trying, after years of nothing apart from a miscarriage and intense sadness. Happy customer - no other relation: http://crpclinic.co.uk http://crpclinic.co.uk
- AuryGlenz 6y ago
- gspr 6y ago> radiation I don't doubt much of what you're saying, but is there any evidence to support that modern life exposes you to any more harmful radiation than life in the past did?
- FieryTransition 6y agoCigarettes for once, can expose you to way more rads than what is healthy [0]. [0] https://www.verywellmind.com/radioactive-chemicals-in-cigarettes-4121185 https://www.verywellmind.com/radioactive-chemicals-in-cigare...
- gspr 6y agoFair enough. I kinda forgot that smoking is still a thing. But it's been on a big decline for years, hasn't it? Surely this isn't some new and growing danger?
- FieryTransition 6y agoProbably has, even though there's still a lot of people who smoke. Think it will be a while before it really can be considered a more rare occurrence/habit. Considering how many people still do it, it could be considered as part of our culture. Otherwise i don't know any sources of radiation. Besides some places where the atmosphere is getting thin, and getting skin cancer is very normal, like Australia.
- gspr 6y ago> Besides some places where the atmosphere is getting thin, and getting skin cancer is very normal, like Australia. I thought the ozone situation had been getting a lot better since the 90s?
- FieryTransition 6y agoIt is getting better, but it won't really recover until 2050 to 2060's AFAIK. That said, there are other gasses which might still be bad to let into the atmosphere, so we still don't understand it a 100% There's also the ozone hole, which partly affects Australia [0], but mostly Antarctica. I think it is really interesting, that about 2/3 of people in Australia will get skin cancer at some point, and I've wondered whether it's due to the increased exposure to, what is essentially radiation, or just the mass migration of people who were originally not native to the region. Thus they don't handle the sun as well, as say, Aboriginals. [0] https://www.villageinframe.com/ozone-layer-hole-in-australia/ https://www.villageinframe.com/ozone-layer-hole-in-australia...
- tzone 6y agoWeight loss and proper exercise will probably deliver 99% of the improvements for 99% of the people. Stressing about heat, radiation, micro plastics, or other random stuff seems like extra stress for not that much benefit. Most people in Western world are either out of shape, or straight up obese. It makes sense that, that will have huge negative effects on fertility.
- medium_burrito 6y agoYeah, I'm gonna take Obesity for $400, Alex. Sidenote: When someone overfeeds their animal as is common in America, would that be Obestiality?
- YinglingLight 6y agoI'll hold off on my order of the new Impossible Boner from Burger King.
- nvahalik 6y agoWe tried for several months but after starting and following a workout regimen for a few weeks... it just happened! It's amazing what a little exercise can do for your body!
- jonplackett 6y agoIt takes 3 months or so for sperm to grow, so on that time frame the exercise can’t have made a difference to your sperm quality, it was probably fine already and you just had to wait to get lucky. Unless you’ve been trying for over a year that’s just a perfectly normal amount of time for it to take anyway
- nvahalik 6y agoI think it was maybe not on my side, specifically... but just don't tell my wife that. :)
- vagrantJin 6y ago> following a workout regimen for a few weeks. This got a chuckle out of me sir. I imagine the sperm sent you a memorandum of protest about your unhealthy lifestyle. Sure it was an illegal strike but it worked.
- xkv 6y agoCannabis was a big factor for me. My sperm morphology improved after I ceased using it. Anecdotal, but there are a few studies that support the idea (cannabis in general doesn't have a lot of studies because it is a Schedule 1). If you're a heavy user, it can't hurt to stop while you're trying, and it may help. (I don't see it mentioned often in these discussions.) 1. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31267718/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31267718/ 2. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30916627/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30916627/
- fertilitythrow1 6y agothrowaway due to personal health details: Similar anecdote from a UK-based late-30s guy with a BMI in the 30ish range: - no background health/illness issues. Non-smoker, occasional drinker (2-3 glasses a week). - trouble with getting pregnant - checks on female were all A-ok. - sperm analysis on me done. - count & motability fine. - morphology was low at 1% good-forms (minimum is IIRC 3% or above). Several months later and re-tested: morphology was then at 4% - count & motability largely unchanged. DNA fragmentation was "normal" but not amazing (not tested initially) What I did: - significantly upped my standing desk usage - from sporadic use a few times a week, to perhaps 25-50% of every working day at a standing desk. - changed underwear from tight-fitting "trunks" to looser "jersey" (not boxers - personally I hate boxers) - slept naked instead of wearing trunks. - almost entirely eliminated alcohol and caffeine, apart from the odd glass/cup maybe once or twice a month. - anti-oxidant tablets ("condensyl") taken daily Notable: - exercise & weight largely unchanged (I ran a few KMs maybe once or twice a week - this remained unchanged) - diet (apart from caffeine and alcohol) largely unchanged - perhaps some small mild "improvements" in cutting back on sugar & fat and having more veg but nothing drastic or wildly different really. I now have a naturally conceived 1 year old boy. Pregnancy + birth + delivery totally normal, baby all A-ok. It can happen - don't loose faith if the results are "bad". Good luck.
- jonplackett 6y agoHey thanks for replying and massive congrats on the little guy! Weird how similar that was to me. Wonder how many other people there are like this where just that bit of advice + minor action could have made such a big difference to their lives instead of being told there’s nothing they can do. Keep spreading the word!
- ip26 6y agoTo the many people arguing about mobile phone radiation - just move your phone to your back pocket & move on with your life. Your body will act as a shield. Will it matter? Maybe. Maybe not. Now go think about something else. If you need something else to think about: non-antibacterial soap is better anyway, and a RO filter is less than $200. Ok, NOW go do something else.
- TheCapeGreek 6y agoGood luck doing that anywhere outside the 1st world and still having a phone after the first hour.