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Would it be... unreasonable... to point out that the fall in sperm quality, egg quality, and overall hormonal disruption is happening concurrent with a blurring

Would it be... unreasonable... to point out that the fall in sperm quality, egg quality, and overall hormonal disruption is happening concurrent with a blurring of overall gender identification, predominantly in the youngest generation? Identification as trans or other non-binary status is incredibly high among the gen-z cohort. Might be unrelated social upheaval, but would anyone really be surprised if we weren't accidentally hormonally poisoning children at the same time they are developing their own gender identities?

konjin 6y ago
You're only allowed to write vague doomsday articles about things that people like to hate. It's pretty funny that you're downvoted for using exactly the same type of vague fear mongering that the article does but because you did it towards unacceptable targets peoples incredulity kicked in. I wish people would use their ability to think in all cases, not just when they disagree with the conclusion. And if you're about to flag and downvote this because you think I'm being *ist, you are exactly the problem since I did nothing of the sort.
inglor_cz 6y ago
I am dismayed, but not entirely surprised, that you are getting downvoted for this. If we really have hormonal disruption of the ecosystem strong enough that alligators have problems breeding, why wouldn't it influence human behavior? Hormones influence human behavior all the time, so if there is a change in the balance, there should be a change in the behavior patterns. This is a testable hypothesis and should not be discarded automatically without being tested, especially by HN forists who are expected to be, on average, more friendly towards critical thinking and less towards dogmatism.
arp242 6y ago
I don't think Caitlyn Jenner is gen-Z, or The Wachowskis. I mean, maybe there is a link? It's not inconceivable I suppose, but I am not aware of any evidence, and purely comparing numbers of people is not a very good way of going about this. You will find there are a lot more gay people in the United States than in, say, Saudi Arabia too. But that doesn't mean there are environmental factors in the US that make people gay: they just don't feel free to declare themselves as such in SA because you will get in to trouble.
- CryptoPunk 6y ago
  It's also entirely possible that cultural factors can influence the number of people who develop a homosexual sexual orientation. Humans are highly malleable and affected by culture.
  - pseudalopex 6y ago
    Not malleable enough for conversion therapy to work.
    - CryptoPunk 6y ago
      I believe it's not proven that it can work, not that it's proven not to work at all. I suspect there is a strong motivation to discourage research into its effectiveness and discredit that research which has been done, and for understandable reasons, like not wanting people who are homosexuals to see their orientation as a psychopathology. In any case, I suspect that sexual orientation develops and crystalizes long before conversion therapy is generally resorted to. I also wouldn't be surprised if conversion therapy has the opposite effect of that intended, of re-inforcing homosexual orientations, by presenting it as central to the subject's identity.
    - DoreenMichele 6y ago
      To my mind, that's a little like saying "Wow, it sure is shocking how forcible rape fails to get people all hot and bothered and learn to love sex." Conversion therapy is the opposite of someone deciding "Hmmmm. You know, I never thought about it before but now that I am in some new circumstance with people with different traits, I'm finding myself weirdly attracted to categories of people that never did a thing for me before and maybe, just maybe, gender per se was not the trait that really mattered to my ability to get turned on." Conversion therapy is forced on people in an ugly fashion by other people who hate them for what they are and desperately want to "fix" them. Regardless of the reason for therapy, this approach is almost always counterproductive.
      - CryptoPunk 6y ago
foobar33333 6y ago
I don't think we can come anywhere close to ruling this out but of course we also don't know how many people felt this way before and hid it so the data is far to muddy to make a clear conclusion.
dragonwriter 6y ago
> Identification as trans or other non-binary status is incredibly high among the gen-z cohort. The highest study estimate I've seen is 3%, almost all others are between 0.7% and 1%, with even boomers around 0.5%. (For Gen-Z kids, parental belief that children are trans or have non-binary identity is many times higher, though, but that's clearly more about social priming than “hormonal poisoning”.) > Might be unrelated social upheaval, To the extent there is an increase at all, it's probably increased awareness of the concept providing a framework to fit into than any “hormonal poisoning”.
- pseudalopex 6y ago
  3% included people just questioning their gender identity.[1] [1] https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/141/3/e20171683 https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/141/3/e201716...
DoreenMichele 6y ago
It's not unreasonable to speculate that it may be one factor. It is unreasonable to implicitly assert that it's the only factor and the clear singular cause.
- eightails 6y ago
  > It is unreasonable to implicitly assert that it's the only factor and the clear singular cause Sure, but did op assert that? I didn't read it that way.
  - DoreenMichele 6y ago
    It's a distinction that doesn't require the OP to have done any such thing for the distinction to be meaningful. Making a distinction about what is or is not a reasonable inference when someone asks isn't the same thing as accusing them of anything.
    - eightails 6y ago
      I agree, but in that case why bother? In replying with such a distinction, the assumption is that you're actually responding directly to the op, not just quoting truisms.
      - DoreenMichele 6y ago
        They asked. I felt it was a distinction worth making. You aren't the OP. Why do you care so much? Why do you feel compelled to engage with the words on the screen of some internet stranger who likely has a different cultural background from you and does things for reasons different from yours?
        eightails 6y ago
        > Why do you feel compelled to engage with the words on the screen of some internet stranger who likely has a different cultural background from you and does things for reasons different from yours? Because I like discussing things with other people, especially people who might come from different cultural backgrounds, do things differently or otherwise hold different views from me. It's often interesting and educational, helping us both to get different perspectives on things. I won't pose the obvious reversal. Given this conversation is certainly not interesting or educational, I think it's probably best if we stop here.

konjin 6y ago

You're only allowed to write vague doomsday articles about things that people like to hate. It's pretty funny that you're downvoted for using exactly the same type of vague fear mongering that the article does but because you did it towards unacceptable targets peoples incredulity kicked in. I wish people would use their ability to think in all cases, not just when they disagree with the conclusion. And if you're about to flag and downvote this because you think I'm being *ist, you are exactly the problem since I did nothing of the sort.

inglor_cz 6y ago

I am dismayed, but not entirely surprised, that you are getting downvoted for this. If we really have hormonal disruption of the ecosystem strong enough that alligators have problems breeding, why wouldn't it influence human behavior? Hormones influence human behavior all the time, so if there is a change in the balance, there should be a change in the behavior patterns. This is a testable hypothesis and should not be discarded automatically without being tested, especially by HN forists who are expected to be, on average, more friendly towards critical thinking and less towards dogmatism.

arp242 6y ago

I don't think Caitlyn Jenner is gen-Z, or The Wachowskis. I mean, maybe there is a link? It's not inconceivable I suppose, but I am not aware of any evidence, and purely comparing numbers of people is not a very good way of going about this. You will find there are a lot more gay people in the United States than in, say, Saudi Arabia too. But that doesn't mean there are environmental factors in the US that make people gay: they just don't feel free to declare themselves as such in SA because you will get in to trouble.

CryptoPunk 6y ago
It's also entirely possible that cultural factors can influence the number of people who develop a homosexual sexual orientation. Humans are highly malleable and affected by culture.
- pseudalopex 6y ago
  Not malleable enough for conversion therapy to work.
  - CryptoPunk 6y ago
    I believe it's not proven that it can work, not that it's proven not to work at all. I suspect there is a strong motivation to discourage research into its effectiveness and discredit that research which has been done, and for understandable reasons, like not wanting people who are homosexuals to see their orientation as a psychopathology. In any case, I suspect that sexual orientation develops and crystalizes long before conversion therapy is generally resorted to. I also wouldn't be surprised if conversion therapy has the opposite effect of that intended, of re-inforcing homosexual orientations, by presenting it as central to the subject's identity.
  - DoreenMichele 6y ago
    To my mind, that's a little like saying "Wow, it sure is shocking how forcible rape fails to get people all hot and bothered and learn to love sex." Conversion therapy is the opposite of someone deciding "Hmmmm. You know, I never thought about it before but now that I am in some new circumstance with people with different traits, I'm finding myself weirdly attracted to categories of people that never did a thing for me before and maybe, just maybe, gender per se was not the trait that really mattered to my ability to get turned on." Conversion therapy is forced on people in an ugly fashion by other people who hate them for what they are and desperately want to "fix" them. Regardless of the reason for therapy, this approach is almost always counterproductive.
    - CryptoPunk 6y ago

foobar33333 6y ago

I don't think we can come anywhere close to ruling this out but of course we also don't know how many people felt this way before and hid it so the data is far to muddy to make a clear conclusion.

dragonwriter 6y ago

> Identification as trans or other non-binary status is incredibly high among the gen-z cohort. The highest study estimate I've seen is 3%, almost all others are between 0.7% and 1%, with even boomers around 0.5%. (For Gen-Z kids, parental belief that children are trans or have non-binary identity is many times higher, though, but that's clearly more about social priming than “hormonal poisoning”.) > Might be unrelated social upheaval, To the extent there is an increase at all, it's probably increased awareness of the concept providing a framework to fit into than any “hormonal poisoning”.

pseudalopex 6y ago
3% included people just questioning their gender identity.[1] [1] https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/141/3/e20171683 https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/141/3/e201716...

DoreenMichele 6y ago

It's not unreasonable to speculate that it may be one factor. It is unreasonable to implicitly assert that it's the only factor and the clear singular cause.

eightails 6y ago
> It is unreasonable to implicitly assert that it's the only factor and the clear singular cause Sure, but did op assert that? I didn't read it that way.
- DoreenMichele 6y ago
  It's a distinction that doesn't require the OP to have done any such thing for the distinction to be meaningful. Making a distinction about what is or is not a reasonable inference when someone asks isn't the same thing as accusing them of anything.
  - eightails 6y ago
    I agree, but in that case why bother? In replying with such a distinction, the assumption is that you're actually responding directly to the op, not just quoting truisms.
    - DoreenMichele 6y ago
      They asked. I felt it was a distinction worth making. You aren't the OP. Why do you care so much? Why do you feel compelled to engage with the words on the screen of some internet stranger who likely has a different cultural background from you and does things for reasons different from yours?
      - eightails 6y ago
        > Why do you feel compelled to engage with the words on the screen of some internet stranger who likely has a different cultural background from you and does things for reasons different from yours? Because I like discussing things with other people, especially people who might come from different cultural backgrounds, do things differently or otherwise hold different views from me. It's often interesting and educational, helping us both to get different perspectives on things. I won't pose the obvious reversal. Given this conversation is certainly not interesting or educational, I think it's probably best if we stop here.