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> an application of the name of the Arab prophet Mohammed (commonly though mistakenly believed by medieval Christians to have been worshipped as a god) this is

> an application of the name of the Arab prophet Mohammed (commonly though mistakenly believed by medieval Christians to have been worshipped as a god) this is mentioned several times in the article, criticizing the translation of "pagan idol". I think it is a bit disingenuous to think the Christians at the time misinterpreted reality, as they have a broader prohibition against "false prophets" not just deities. So if the Christians, by definition only follow the words of Jesus Christ, then the prophet Mohammad who does not and has his own belief system would accurately fit those definitions. The writings and thoughts and actions of Mohammad are core to Islam and inseparable from the worship of a deity.

dragonwriter 6y ago
> I think it is a bit disingenuous to think the Christians at the time misinterpreted reality, Given the rather high volume of exchange between Christian, Jewish, and Islamic theologians historically, it's implausible that there was genuine misunderstanding on this point; OTOH, there were outright libels that were largely wartime propaganda for the Crusades. > So if the Christians, by definition only follow the words of Jesus Christ That's...definitely not how Christians (either generally now, nor specifically in the Middle Ages, defined themselves.)
ComputerGuru 6y ago
> So if the Christians, by definition only follow the words of Jesus Christ, then the prophet Mohammad who does not and has his own belief system That argument isn’t as clear cut since Muhammad himself was adamant that he was preaching the same message of Moses and Jesus. In many ways, Islam was, in its eyes, to Christianity what Christianity, in its eyes, was to Judaism. You would be hard pressed to find a Muslim theologian (who understands Christian theology) that claims Christians and Muslims worship different gods while until today it remains controversial for Christian theologians to go on the record saying they’re one and the same. Edit: more to the point, until Victorian times, Muslims were most commonly referred to as Mohammedans because the English-speaking world just assumed Islam is to Muhammad as Christianity is to Jesus Christ.
- vmception 6y ago
  Right, Christianity is an outlier in that its prophet is also a supernatural being and also an autonomous part of a single consciousness that is the deity. But thats not my point. My point is that this article and sources are misinterpreting an old english translation and misinterpeting what Christians do. Its not an argument about whether he was a supernatural deity himself nor about whether the deity is the same entity the Christians worship, its about Christians including non-supernatural prophets in their prohibitions. I think this article (and source book) has mistranslated and extrapolated way to much from that mistranslation.
- unanswered 6y ago
  Perhaps this is straying a bit far from the topic at hand, but is it really true that you'd be hard pressed to find a Muslim scholar who considers the worship of Jesus Christ as God to be tantamount to the worship of a false god? I really don't know one way or the other, but I find this a bit hard to believe. I understand one might try to rescue the position by pointing out that those worshippers of Christ do so while explicitly identifying Him as one with the God of Abraham. However, I also vaguely recall an episode in the Torah where the Israelites decide to worship an idol as a substitute for God (wait, wasn't this why Moses destroyed the tablets containing the ten commandments?), and it seems to me an obvious parallel for one who believes Christ to be a mere prophet. To come full circle, this almost lends credence to the belief called out (as false) in the article, that the Muslims worship Mohammed; because it seems as though the line between the worship of Allah and the worship of his prophets is somewhat blurred. But presumably this does not at all follow the lines of actual contemporary Muslim theology :).
  - rodgerd 6y ago
    The doctrine of the trinity certainly looks like it flirts with polytheism if you're coming at it from a traditional Jewish or Islamic perspective.
    - vmception 6y ago
      It is congruent to recognize it as a single consciousness with autonomous parts. But ultimately people are more allergic to the word polytheism as they'll spend more energy interpreting why it isn't because it is crucial to their identity. Basically "only false idols are polytheistic", groups of people that were punished specifically for worshipping and exalting multiple deities. So although there are three supreme supernatural beings that all have to be pleased in different ways, the word polytheism would cause a greater reaction than simply brushing off how the venn diagram between polytheism and the trinity is a circle.
deleted 6y ago
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cafard 6y ago
Inseparable from the worship of a deity? That strikes me as much too strong. I did notice recently in one of the supplements to Mencken's The American Language that the canons of the Roman Catholic church prohibit baptizing a child with the name Mohammed--as also, if I recall correctly, Calvin or Wesley.

dragonwriter 6y ago

> I think it is a bit disingenuous to think the Christians at the time misinterpreted reality, Given the rather high volume of exchange between Christian, Jewish, and Islamic theologians historically, it's implausible that there was genuine misunderstanding on this point; OTOH, there were outright libels that were largely wartime propaganda for the Crusades. > So if the Christians, by definition only follow the words of Jesus Christ That's...definitely not how Christians (either generally now, nor specifically in the Middle Ages, defined themselves.)

ComputerGuru 6y ago

> So if the Christians, by definition only follow the words of Jesus Christ, then the prophet Mohammad who does not and has his own belief system That argument isn’t as clear cut since Muhammad himself was adamant that he was preaching the same message of Moses and Jesus. In many ways, Islam was, in its eyes, to Christianity what Christianity, in its eyes, was to Judaism. You would be hard pressed to find a Muslim theologian (who understands Christian theology) that claims Christians and Muslims worship different gods while until today it remains controversial for Christian theologians to go on the record saying they’re one and the same. Edit: more to the point, until Victorian times, Muslims were most commonly referred to as Mohammedans because the English-speaking world just assumed Islam is to Muhammad as Christianity is to Jesus Christ.

vmception 6y ago
Right, Christianity is an outlier in that its prophet is also a supernatural being and also an autonomous part of a single consciousness that is the deity. But thats not my point. My point is that this article and sources are misinterpreting an old english translation and misinterpeting what Christians do. Its not an argument about whether he was a supernatural deity himself nor about whether the deity is the same entity the Christians worship, its about Christians including non-supernatural prophets in their prohibitions. I think this article (and source book) has mistranslated and extrapolated way to much from that mistranslation.
unanswered 6y ago
Perhaps this is straying a bit far from the topic at hand, but is it really true that you'd be hard pressed to find a Muslim scholar who considers the worship of Jesus Christ as God to be tantamount to the worship of a false god? I really don't know one way or the other, but I find this a bit hard to believe. I understand one might try to rescue the position by pointing out that those worshippers of Christ do so while explicitly identifying Him as one with the God of Abraham. However, I also vaguely recall an episode in the Torah where the Israelites decide to worship an idol as a substitute for God (wait, wasn't this why Moses destroyed the tablets containing the ten commandments?), and it seems to me an obvious parallel for one who believes Christ to be a mere prophet. To come full circle, this almost lends credence to the belief called out (as false) in the article, that the Muslims worship Mohammed; because it seems as though the line between the worship of Allah and the worship of his prophets is somewhat blurred. But presumably this does not at all follow the lines of actual contemporary Muslim theology :).
- rodgerd 6y ago
  The doctrine of the trinity certainly looks like it flirts with polytheism if you're coming at it from a traditional Jewish or Islamic perspective.
  - vmception 6y ago
    It is congruent to recognize it as a single consciousness with autonomous parts. But ultimately people are more allergic to the word polytheism as they'll spend more energy interpreting why it isn't because it is crucial to their identity. Basically "only false idols are polytheistic", groups of people that were punished specifically for worshipping and exalting multiple deities. So although there are three supreme supernatural beings that all have to be pleased in different ways, the word polytheism would cause a greater reaction than simply brushing off how the venn diagram between polytheism and the trinity is a circle.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

cafard 6y ago

Inseparable from the worship of a deity? That strikes me as much too strong. I did notice recently in one of the supplements to Mencken's The American Language that the canons of the Roman Catholic church prohibit baptizing a child with the name Mohammed--as also, if I recall correctly, Calvin or Wesley.