3 ms·

> you had to support Portuguese and Spanish I wonder about that (maybe internationalization for Latin America?). Portuguese, as far as I know, is very dominant

by wenc 6y ago

> you had to support Portuguese and Spanish I wonder about that (maybe internationalization for Latin America?). Portuguese, as far as I know, is very dominant in Brazil (spoken by 98% of the population). Spanish might be spoken as an L2 in the border states, but I don't know that there's any significant Spanish internationalization in Brazil. Most Brazilians I know say that whenever they have to communicate with Spanish speakers, they generally muddle through with Portuñol, a made-up pidgin of Portuguese with a few Spanish words thrown in to ease comprehension. Ironically, Spanish isn't a very popular language in Brazil (only 4% of the population speak it). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_Brazil#Bilingualism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_Brazil#Bilinguali... Come to think of it, I've seen more signage in Spanish in the United States than I've ever seen in Brazil. That said, I've only ever been to Rio and São Paulo. Would be interesting to get thoughts from Brazilians.

bluGill 6y ago
Spanish is spoken by more than 4% of the US. It is an official language of New Mexico, the dominate language of Puerto Rico, and has a significant number of native born speakers in states bordering Mexico (which at one time owned those states). There are also a lot of immigrants (mostly from Mexico - both legal and illegal) who speak Spanish. If you squint hard enough Portuguese is a dialect of Spanish, as is Italian. Native speakers will disagree with that statement, but most non-native speakers who have learned Spanish and one of the other agree that once you know Spanish it isn't a big deal to learn the other.
- wenc 6y ago
  > If you squint hard enough Portuguese is a dialect of Spanish, as is Italian. Native speakers will disagree with that statement, but most non-native speakers who have learned Spanish and one of the other agree that once you know Spanish it isn't a big deal to learn the other. I think Portuguese and Castilian Spanish have common roots (they're on a continuum of West Iberian). Italian is also related but belong to a different branch of the linguistic family. Here's a nice diagram: https://www.theguardian.com/education/gallery/2015/jan/23/a-language-family-tree-in-pictures https://www.theguardian.com/education/gallery/2015/jan/23/a-...
marcosdumay 6y ago
Nah, if you go into a borderline city, odds are almost 1 that you'll signage in Portuguese at the Spanish side of the border. Brazilian speak Portuguese, there's no details to add. Those 2% (that feels way too high, I don't trust this number) are insulated immigrants (probably speaking German, Japanese, or Italian) or native communities speaking their own language. Those are very small and fringe communities, most first generation immigrants and natives speak Portuguese too (but as a second language).
- wenc 6y ago
  Various sources cite Ethnologue's figure of 460,000 Spanish speakers in Brazil, which is 0.2% of Brazil's 211m population, so yes, much lower than the 4% figure cited in Wikipedia. In fact, it seems there are many more German speakers in Brazil (about 4.5m), especially in the southern states.
  - marcosdumay 6y ago
    The wikipedia numbers do not add to 100%, so I guess they accept multiple languages. Still, if that's the case, 7% for English is a bit too low, it should be closer to 15%.
hinkley 6y ago
It is possible they or I got our wires crossed about the fact that South America > Brazil. This story has been retold so many times that it is starting to become myth. Typically I use Switzerland as my go-to example of "Even if it's one country you can't assume one language." But Quebec is also next door - and to be perfectly cynical, you can count on people who only care about English and don't give a damn about anybody outside their bubble to have a politically incorrect Quebecois joke pop into their heads. They get it, even if they don't like it.
- wenc 6y ago
  That makes sense. From my perspective, having worked in Brazil (and having been a student of the Portuguese language) for some years, I've come to understand there's actually a strong pride in the Portuguese language in Brazil and in being distinct from the Spanish-speaking countries around it, and this has resulted in Spanish being a tiny minority language in Brazil. The other contributing factor I think is that most Brazilians have little reason to actually learn Spanish because the languages are similar enough to enable simple interactions (at least on the surface -- they diverge significantly upon diving deeper). As a result, the presence of Spanish in Brazil is actually very small. Hence my original comment that it would be very unusual for Pirahã words to have the possibility of Spanish as an influence. The French situation in Canada is a little different (speaking as a former Quebec resident). French is a co-official language in Canada spoken as an L1 by 20% of the population (and L1 speakers aren't only in Quebec, but also Alberta, Manitoba, Ontario and New Brunswick). Also, internationalizing for French isn't just a good idea, it is the law. Retailers in the U.S. know that consumer products without French labeling cannot be sold commercially in Canada.

by wenc 6y ago

bluGill 6y ago

Spanish is spoken by more than 4% of the US. It is an official language of New Mexico, the dominate language of Puerto Rico, and has a significant number of native born speakers in states bordering Mexico (which at one time owned those states). There are also a lot of immigrants (mostly from Mexico - both legal and illegal) who speak Spanish. If you squint hard enough Portuguese is a dialect of Spanish, as is Italian. Native speakers will disagree with that statement, but most non-native speakers who have learned Spanish and one of the other agree that once you know Spanish it isn't a big deal to learn the other.

wenc 6y ago
> If you squint hard enough Portuguese is a dialect of Spanish, as is Italian. Native speakers will disagree with that statement, but most non-native speakers who have learned Spanish and one of the other agree that once you know Spanish it isn't a big deal to learn the other. I think Portuguese and Castilian Spanish have common roots (they're on a continuum of West Iberian). Italian is also related but belong to a different branch of the linguistic family. Here's a nice diagram: https://www.theguardian.com/education/gallery/2015/jan/23/a-language-family-tree-in-pictures https://www.theguardian.com/education/gallery/2015/jan/23/a-...

marcosdumay 6y ago

Nah, if you go into a borderline city, odds are almost 1 that you'll signage in Portuguese at the Spanish side of the border. Brazilian speak Portuguese, there's no details to add. Those 2% (that feels way too high, I don't trust this number) are insulated immigrants (probably speaking German, Japanese, or Italian) or native communities speaking their own language. Those are very small and fringe communities, most first generation immigrants and natives speak Portuguese too (but as a second language).

wenc 6y ago
Various sources cite Ethnologue's figure of 460,000 Spanish speakers in Brazil, which is 0.2% of Brazil's 211m population, so yes, much lower than the 4% figure cited in Wikipedia. In fact, it seems there are many more German speakers in Brazil (about 4.5m), especially in the southern states.
- marcosdumay 6y ago
  The wikipedia numbers do not add to 100%, so I guess they accept multiple languages. Still, if that's the case, 7% for English is a bit too low, it should be closer to 15%.

hinkley 6y ago

It is possible they or I got our wires crossed about the fact that South America > Brazil. This story has been retold so many times that it is starting to become myth. Typically I use Switzerland as my go-to example of "Even if it's one country you can't assume one language." But Quebec is also next door - and to be perfectly cynical, you can count on people who only care about English and don't give a damn about anybody outside their bubble to have a politically incorrect Quebecois joke pop into their heads. They get it, even if they don't like it.

wenc 6y ago
That makes sense. From my perspective, having worked in Brazil (and having been a student of the Portuguese language) for some years, I've come to understand there's actually a strong pride in the Portuguese language in Brazil and in being distinct from the Spanish-speaking countries around it, and this has resulted in Spanish being a tiny minority language in Brazil. The other contributing factor I think is that most Brazilians have little reason to actually learn Spanish because the languages are similar enough to enable simple interactions (at least on the surface -- they diverge significantly upon diving deeper). As a result, the presence of Spanish in Brazil is actually very small. Hence my original comment that it would be very unusual for Pirahã words to have the possibility of Spanish as an influence. The French situation in Canada is a little different (speaking as a former Quebec resident). French is a co-official language in Canada spoken as an L1 by 20% of the population (and L1 speakers aren't only in Quebec, but also Alberta, Manitoba, Ontario and New Brunswick). Also, internationalizing for French isn't just a good idea, it is the law. Retailers in the U.S. know that consumer products without French labeling cannot be sold commercially in Canada.