3 ms·

> Interestingly, the Pirahã don’t seem to have a very high opinion of outsiders. They are monolingual, preferring to stick with their own lexicon rather than bo

by wenc 6y ago

> Interestingly, the Pirahã don’t seem to have a very high opinion of outsiders. They are monolingual, preferring to stick with their own lexicon rather than borrow words from English or Spanish, and they call all other languages, “crooked head.” A quibble with something in the article -- why would the Pirahã borrow words from Spanish? They're in Brazil. And as it turns out, they do have a few loanwords from Portuguese.

hinkley 6y ago
Somewhere I got the notion that if you're doing translations for Brazil you had to support Portuguese and Spanish, which is why you need internationalization instead of localization. It turns out that there are maybe half a million Spanish speakers in Brazil, but plenty of other languages, especially in the western half. > Brazil’s immigrant languages include Catalan, Dutch, Japanese, Korean, North Levantine Spoken Arabic, Turoyo and Vlax Romani, as well as more mainstream European languages like German, Italian, Polish and Ukrainian.
- wenc 6y ago
  > you had to support Portuguese and Spanish I wonder about that (maybe internationalization for Latin America?). Portuguese, as far as I know, is very dominant in Brazil (spoken by 98% of the population). Spanish might be spoken as an L2 in the border states, but I don't know that there's any significant Spanish internationalization in Brazil. Most Brazilians I know say that whenever they have to communicate with Spanish speakers, they generally muddle through with Portuñol, a made-up pidgin of Portuguese with a few Spanish words thrown in to ease comprehension. Ironically, Spanish isn't a very popular language in Brazil (only 4% of the population speak it). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_Brazil#Bilingualism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_Brazil#Bilinguali... Come to think of it, I've seen more signage in Spanish in the United States than I've ever seen in Brazil. That said, I've only ever been to Rio and São Paulo. Would be interesting to get thoughts from Brazilians.
  - bluGill 6y ago
    Spanish is spoken by more than 4% of the US. It is an official language of New Mexico, the dominate language of Puerto Rico, and has a significant number of native born speakers in states bordering Mexico (which at one time owned those states). There are also a lot of immigrants (mostly from Mexico - both legal and illegal) who speak Spanish. If you squint hard enough Portuguese is a dialect of Spanish, as is Italian. Native speakers will disagree with that statement, but most non-native speakers who have learned Spanish and one of the other agree that once you know Spanish it isn't a big deal to learn the other.
    - wenc 6y ago
      > If you squint hard enough Portuguese is a dialect of Spanish, as is Italian. Native speakers will disagree with that statement, but most non-native speakers who have learned Spanish and one of the other agree that once you know Spanish it isn't a big deal to learn the other. I think Portuguese and Castilian Spanish have common roots (they're on a continuum of West Iberian). Italian is also related but belong to a different branch of the linguistic family. Here's a nice diagram: https://www.theguardian.com/education/gallery/2015/jan/23/a-language-family-tree-in-pictures https://www.theguardian.com/education/gallery/2015/jan/23/a-...
  - marcosdumay 6y ago
    Nah, if you go into a borderline city, odds are almost 1 that you'll signage in Portuguese at the Spanish side of the border. Brazilian speak Portuguese, there's no details to add. Those 2% (that feels way too high, I don't trust this number) are insulated immigrants (probably speaking German, Japanese, or Italian) or native communities speaking their own language. Those are very small and fringe communities, most first generation immigrants and natives speak Portuguese too (but as a second language).
    - wenc 6y ago
      Various sources cite Ethnologue's figure of 460,000 Spanish speakers in Brazil, which is 0.2% of Brazil's 211m population, so yes, much lower than the 4% figure cited in Wikipedia. In fact, it seems there are many more German speakers in Brazil (about 4.5m), especially in the southern states.

by wenc 6y ago

hinkley 6y ago

Somewhere I got the notion that if you're doing translations for Brazil you had to support Portuguese and Spanish, which is why you need internationalization instead of localization. It turns out that there are maybe half a million Spanish speakers in Brazil, but plenty of other languages, especially in the western half. > Brazil’s immigrant languages include Catalan, Dutch, Japanese, Korean, North Levantine Spoken Arabic, Turoyo and Vlax Romani, as well as more mainstream European languages like German, Italian, Polish and Ukrainian.

wenc 6y ago
> you had to support Portuguese and Spanish I wonder about that (maybe internationalization for Latin America?). Portuguese, as far as I know, is very dominant in Brazil (spoken by 98% of the population). Spanish might be spoken as an L2 in the border states, but I don't know that there's any significant Spanish internationalization in Brazil. Most Brazilians I know say that whenever they have to communicate with Spanish speakers, they generally muddle through with Portuñol, a made-up pidgin of Portuguese with a few Spanish words thrown in to ease comprehension. Ironically, Spanish isn't a very popular language in Brazil (only 4% of the population speak it). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_Brazil#Bilingualism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_Brazil#Bilinguali... Come to think of it, I've seen more signage in Spanish in the United States than I've ever seen in Brazil. That said, I've only ever been to Rio and São Paulo. Would be interesting to get thoughts from Brazilians.
- bluGill 6y ago
  Spanish is spoken by more than 4% of the US. It is an official language of New Mexico, the dominate language of Puerto Rico, and has a significant number of native born speakers in states bordering Mexico (which at one time owned those states). There are also a lot of immigrants (mostly from Mexico - both legal and illegal) who speak Spanish. If you squint hard enough Portuguese is a dialect of Spanish, as is Italian. Native speakers will disagree with that statement, but most non-native speakers who have learned Spanish and one of the other agree that once you know Spanish it isn't a big deal to learn the other.
  - wenc 6y ago
    > If you squint hard enough Portuguese is a dialect of Spanish, as is Italian. Native speakers will disagree with that statement, but most non-native speakers who have learned Spanish and one of the other agree that once you know Spanish it isn't a big deal to learn the other. I think Portuguese and Castilian Spanish have common roots (they're on a continuum of West Iberian). Italian is also related but belong to a different branch of the linguistic family. Here's a nice diagram: https://www.theguardian.com/education/gallery/2015/jan/23/a-language-family-tree-in-pictures https://www.theguardian.com/education/gallery/2015/jan/23/a-...
- marcosdumay 6y ago
  Nah, if you go into a borderline city, odds are almost 1 that you'll signage in Portuguese at the Spanish side of the border. Brazilian speak Portuguese, there's no details to add. Those 2% (that feels way too high, I don't trust this number) are insulated immigrants (probably speaking German, Japanese, or Italian) or native communities speaking their own language. Those are very small and fringe communities, most first generation immigrants and natives speak Portuguese too (but as a second language).
  - wenc 6y ago
    Various sources cite Ethnologue's figure of 460,000 Spanish speakers in Brazil, which is 0.2% of Brazil's 211m population, so yes, much lower than the 4% figure cited in Wikipedia. In fact, it seems there are many more German speakers in Brazil (about 4.5m), especially in the southern states.