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Korean Air, Asiana to ground Boeing 777 after engine incident
- 4cao 6y agoSpecifically, it concerns some variants of the Pratt & Whitney PW-40xx engine (the affected model was a PW-4077). Japanese carriers also grounded their affected planes earlier, and so did United. Japanese authorities issued a NOTAM requesting airlines not to fly the affected planes over its territory. The US FAA is about to issue an emergency directive soon but only expected to decrease the inspection intervals of the affected parts rather than ground the planes completely. The Aviation Herald has all the updates: http://avherald.com/h?article=4e35503b http://avherald.com/h?article=4e35503b
- Yeri 6y agodecrease? increase?
- turbonaut 6y agoDecrease the interval, increase the frequency.
- Yeri 6y agoAs a non-native I would've used `increase the interval` -- but I understand now this is incorrect. TIL..
- gchamonlive 6y agoindeed, it would have been clearer to say 'increase the frequency of inspection'
- 4cao 6y agoMy bad, I could have worded it clearer: "have the parts inspected more often" would do, I think. Alas, can't edit the comment anymore, and probably shouldn't anyway, considering the discussion it sparked.
- gchamonlive 6y agosorry for nitpicking, but as a non-native speaker I can understand the confusion
- kryogen1c 6y ago> As a non-native i am a native and this confuses me constantly. the windshield wipers in my car change their speed based on a UX showing an in increasingingly long bar. i can never tell if it represents time or 1/time until i futz with it.
- netsharc 6y agoHuh? The lowest setting (the one closest to off or auto) is the one for the least rain, and it goes up to handle more rain, i.e. the further you are from off/auto the faster the windshield wipers wipe.
- kryogen1c 6y ago> Huh? Yes, you are right to be confused. You dont know the UX of car. Why did you think this was worth commenting? > (the one closest to off or auto) the on/off toggle is separate from the speed dial. there is no obvious (to me) directionality.
- netsharc 6y agoWell, I thought all wipers had these things integrated, sorry to presume it was a user instead of a UX problem. But thanks for the questioning of the worth of my cimment. I'd ask for the make/model of your car out of curiousity, but I'm not sure I would want to continue to engage with you.
- jonplackett 6y agoOnly on hacker news can a discussion about an airplane engine end up about windscreen wiper UX.
- ars 6y agoYeah that's one thing European cars do wrong. They have two separate controls: one for on off the other one for interval. American cars in contrast have just one control: it starts with off, then does intervals, finally the shortest interval, then low speed and then high speed.
- rbanffy 6y agoIf it counts only time on air, can we call it wavelength? Thank you. I'll show myself out.
- DoofusOfDeath 6y agoYes! When inspection frequency gets too low, airplanes fail, leading to more frequent inspections. When inspection frequency gets too high, airlines and authorities decide to save money, leading to less frequent inspections. So the inspection schedules (somewhat) satisfy Hook's Law, and thus we should expect wavelike oscillations. [Edit: The system also requires momentum. That's provided by labor unions agreements, maintenance contracts, and the time needed to change regulations.] Thanks, I'll be waiting for you at the pub.
- rbanffy 6y agoWe should write a paper on this. I know quite a few (dis)reputable journals that would readily take it.
- sandworm101 6y ago>> When inspection frequency gets too high, airlines and authorities decide to save money, leading to less frequent inspections. More often such aircraft are just retired. One defining difference between upstart airlines and "legacy" airlines is that the upstarts generally have new aircraft with lower inspection requirements. An interesting paper would address the inevitable evolution of new airlines as as their airframes age. When do they first try to transition to higher-profit services? When do they hit their first period of labor unrest? I theorize it is a function of aircraft age. At least a few airlines don't ever buy aircraft. Instead they lease them with the intention of returning them moment they require more frequent inspections.
- nradov 6y agoUpstart airlines frequently lease used aircraft because they're cheaper.
- toxicFork 6y agoWhen the interval decreases the frequency increases
- nradov 6y agoKorean Air had a similar incident in 2016 where a PW4000 on a Boeing 777 disintegrated during takeoff. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Flight_2708 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Flight_2708
- mzs 6y agoand UAL in '18 http://avherald.com/h?article=4b4e8ca7&opt=0 http://avherald.com/h?article=4b4e8ca7&opt=0
- agloeregrets 6y agoWhich, to pinpoint the insanity of the FAA, the failure seen over denver actually involved an uncontained blade exiting the engine, something it was clearly not designed to allow to happen. It's a mess.
- ak217 6y agoBut the engine did contain the failure. No pieces of the engine caused any functional damage to the rest of the aircraft. The housing is designed to prevent shrapnel damage, not to prevent stuff from falling out altogether. What's insane about the FAA's approach? They are ordering immediate inspections of all fan blades in these engines for cracks like the one that apparently brought this one down.
- mzs 6y agoThere certainly was shrapnel damage to the plane. http://avherald.com/img/united_b772_n772ua_denver_210220_8.jpg http://avherald.com/img/united_b772_n772ua_denver_210220_8.j...
- ADent 6y agoNot fully contained. See https://twitter.com/breakingavnews/status/1363793475947356161 https://twitter.com/breakingavnews/status/136379347594735616... for damage to wing to body fairing.
- kayfox 6y agoContained vs uncontained turbine failures relate to the damage from the blades being contained, which in this case they were. Contained failures still result in engine parts exiting the engine, but not through the engine case, which is reinforced to contain the turbine blades in a failure. The unexpected issue here is that the cowling was knocked off, which is not supposed to happen, but in recent years it seems to be happening.
- agloeregrets 6y agoIt was not contained. A blade went though the lower wing root. https://twitter.com/breakingavnews/status/1363793475947356161 https://twitter.com/breakingavnews/status/136379347594735616...
- ak217 6y ago...Decrease them to zero, aka ordered an immediate inspection. The fan blade had a stress fracture. So they'll need to do an immediate ultrasonic scan of the blades, which should clear the engines for flight, and then figure out why the maintenance schedule didn't catch the fracture.
- hodgesrm 6y agoCNN for comparison focused on "right engine failures" rather than engine type, citing 2 failures in three years. In related news, for two coin flips there's a 1/4 chance of two heads in a row. To be fair they did mention that the engine type was the same, along with the fact that both aircraft were headed for Hawaii. [1] https://www.cnn.com/2021/02/22/us/united-airlines-2018-engine-failure-trnd/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2021/02/22/us/united-airlines-2018-engin...
- JCM9 6y agoTechnically they’re grounding the Pratt & Whitney engine model that happens to be attached to their aircraft. When one buys a big jet you pick out what engine you want to buy and slap onto it. It’s a particular engine they’re concerned about, not the 777 airframe itself.
- balaa 6y agoCool, you work at Boeing media relations?
- arnon 6y agoThe P&W-powered 777 is just one variant. British Airways for example went with GE90s, and some airlines like El Al went with Rolls Royce Trent 800s.
- ninkendo 6y agoAre there any Airbus (or other comapanies’) planes that have the affected engine? Or just Boeing?
- arnon 6y agoAirbus A300-600/A310 Airbus A330 Boeing 747-400 Boeing 767/KC-46 Boeing 777 McDonnell Douglas MD-11
- rob74 6y ago...however the exact type of engine Boeing is using for the 777 (PW4000-112 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pratt_%26_Whitney_PW4000#PW4000-112 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pratt_%26_Whitney_PW4000#PW400...) is not used by any other airliner. I'm no expert, but as the most powerful -112 version has almost twice the thrust of the -94 version, I wouldn't automatically conclude that problems with one type mean that there are also problems with the other types. OTOH, if they take a closer look at the 777 engines and find a lot with problems that went undetected until now, I assume the other PW4000 engines will get a closer inspection as well...
- jfk13 6y agoAccording to the BBC article at https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-56149894 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-56149894, "Boeing has recommended grounding all 777 aircraft with the same type of engine". So this isn't just a few airlines or an individual country.
- JohnJamesRambo 6y agoChecks stock. Only down 2.0%. The current nutty index fund driven stock market, folks.
- alkonaut 6y agoWhich stock? P&W? Airlines? Boeing? Boeing doesn't seem to be at fault here. The particular engine is from P&W and they make engines for Airbus and others as well. I can't see how any of this should be extremely negative long term for neither boeing or P&W.
- jerf 6y agoThis sort of thing isn't good news, certainly, but it's not that exceptionally bad, either. This sort of thing is happening on a low level all the time, it just doesn't always make the non-aviation news.
- MattGaiser 6y agoGiven that the problem is with the engine, which Boeing did not build, why would Boeing stock be down?
- xxpor 6y agoFun fact: United Airlines, Pratt and Whitney, and Boeing used to all be the same company. They were forced to break up after the Air Mail Scandal: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Mail_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Mail_scandal United Technologies is the result of the manufacturing interests east of the Mississippi and Boeing got everything west.
- TargetedVictim 6y agoDutch police and mainstream media is trying to kill me over bitcoin and ethereum, for over 3 years now. https://pastebin.com/btAfNf3T https://pastebin.com/btAfNf3T
- _Microft 6y agoIf you are actually convinced of this to some degree, you might want to see a doctor as this sounds a lot like paranoia and/or schizophrenia.
- saykou 6y agothere it goes my boeing stock :(
- radicalbyte 6y agoOn the same day as the US incident there was a similar (but less spectacular) failure with the 747 in The Netherlands: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/feb/22/dutch-investigate-boeing-747-after-engine-parts-drop-after-takeoff-netherlands https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/feb/22/dutch-inves...
- raverbashing 6y agoMore importantly, it seems it's a variant of the PW engine of the 777 The chance is small (though big enough to be considered), but they could be related
- PedroBatista 6y agoI don't know if being pelted with ninja throwing stars from the sky is less spectacular, maybe because there's not live footage.
- mzs 6y agoThere are dramatic photos: http://avherald.com/h?article=4e35302b&opt=0 http://avherald.com/h?article=4e35302b&opt=0
- eunos 6y agoAn incident related to a Bermuda airline taking off from a Dutch Airport, yet they are using Air China cargo as a picture? SMH.
- Aachen 6y agoTL;DR: parts dropped from a burning engine just after take-off from Maastricht-Aachen Airport, causing damage and injuring a woman in the nearby town of Meerssen. Plane landed safely in the next city over.
- swiley 6y agoEven Harvard has recognized the harm its graduate business school has done to the world and canned a number of programs.
- bjarneh 6y ago> and canned a number of programs What programs?
- jdjvvvkf 6y agoFrom another news article: > Dickson said that his team has 'reviewed all available safety data following yesterday's incident,' and 'based on the initial information, we concluded that the inspection interval should be stepped up for the hollow fan blades that are unique to this model of engine, used solely on Boeing 777 airplanes'.
- blinkingled 6y ago> hollow fan blades that are unique to this model of engine, used solely on Boeing 777 airplanes Hamilton Standard fan blades used to have cracks that went unnoticed during rebuilds because of faulty inspection and repair procedures. This caused 3 accidents including this one in Georgia - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_Southeast_Airlines_Flight_529 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_Southeast_Airlines_....
- GrumpyNl 6y agoDespite all this news and previous problems, the stock price keeps rising. How and why??
- gsnedders 6y agoRaytheon Technologies Corporation (NYSE:RTX), the parent of Pratt & Whitney, is down 2.9% pre-market? And The Boeing Company (NYSE:BA), in terms of knock-on effect, is down 3.9% pre-market?
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- irjustin 6y agoHard to say it's related to the grounding of the planes, futures are down which commonly means the market is going to open overall lower. currently down 0.5% - 1% which is pretty large.
- iso1631 6y ago> The Boeing Company (NYSE:BA), Not to be confused with BA the airline
- toyg 6y agoFor a minute I felt vaguely sorry for P&W, a company I had never heard of, which might well have been a scruffy underdog in the world of giants that is aviation, then... “Raytheon”. Ah well, fuck’em.
- alkonaut 6y agoWhich stock price? The 2 airlines? Boeing? The engine manufacturer (P&W)?
- huntertwo 6y agoIt’s 60 active airplanes, solely operated by United in the US and some others outside the US. Seems like a smaller problem than the 737, and this doesn’t seem to be Boeing’s fault.
- Ohcheesy 6y agoIncrease
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- blantonl 6y agoI wonder if this incident was the result of the plane being in storage for an extended amount of time and recently returning to service. These Aircraft are designed to be in flight constantly maximizing revenue. With the pandemic grounding so many planes for such extended amounts of unplanned time, I wonder if we are beginning to see gaps in maintenance procedures for aircraft returning to service after extended downtime.
- NortySpock 6y ago"If it says Pratt and Whitney on the engine, it better say Martin-Baker on the seat!" -Unknown (Martin-Baker is an ejection seat manufacturer.)
- mncharity 6y agoI was curious, so... The quote may be from the 1970's, associated with the F-14, its troubled placeholder P&W TF30 engine, and maybe then early TF100 problems.[1] Brief googling does not suggest P&W airline engines are atypically problematic. But the engine technology envelope has historically been an aircraft bottleneck, and therefore pushed hard, with associated failure. Thus the quote. And China's ongoing difficulty manufacturing airline engines. Which remain challenging[2]. > Powerplant makers face conflicting demands for performance, reliability and huge production rates [...] “I’m a little bit irritated that over the years we as an airline, and the industry, have been subjected to the requirements of the propulsion manufacturers, and to an extent the airframe manufacturers, where we are expected to deal with quality-control issues, design issues etc, and operate these aircraft and engines and take whatever consequences there are when they don’t work,” [2](2019) [1] https://www.google.com/books/edition/Storm_Over_Iraq/DqaZBwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=%22If+the+engines+say+Pratt+%26+Whitney,+the+seats+should+say+Martin-Baker%22&pg=PT452&printsec=frontcover https://www.google.com/books/edition/Storm_Over_Iraq/DqaZBwA... [2] https://www.flightglobal.com/strategy/everything-you-need-to-know-about-the-6-biggest-commercial-engine-manufacturers-/134678.article https://www.flightglobal.com/strategy/everything-you-need-to...
- kayfox 6y agoThe superstitions of fighter pilots are not always based on hard science...
- nabla9 6y agoThe engine is PW4000-112. It's the largest commercial PW engine. It has 112 inch, shroudless, hollow titanium fan blades,
- just_steve_h 6y agoA passenger photo appears to show exactly this: one blade missing entirely, the adjacent blade broken about halfway.
- post_break 6y agoI asked my aircraft buddy about this. He mentioned that it wasn't a GE engine, and that he doesn't even know what his GE rep looks like because of how few issues they have. Must be a big issue with P&W engines.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- FabHK 6y agoI can't help finding this a bit ironic, given that the B777 is an amazingly safe airplane with only 8 hull losses out of over 1600 built (so less than 0.5%), and one of those hull losses was because an Asiana crew "landed" a fully functional 777 on a beautiful sunny day short of SFO RW 28 L [1]. The other 7 hull losses were * a BA flight landing short of LHR due to iced up fuel [2], * Emirates crash landing in Dubai due to a botched go-around [3], and * two Malaysian Airlines flights that had nothing to do with the aircraft (the probable pilot suicide/mass murder of MH370, and MH17 shot down over the Crimean), and * three aircraft burning out on the ground (EgyptAir, Singaporean Air, Ethiopian). Amazingly, there were only 3 fatalities with the Asiana crash (two not wearing seatbelts, one run over by fire truck), 1 with the Emirates crash (firefighter, not passenger), and 0 with the BA accident. Only the BA flight really revealed a problem with the aircraft which appears to have been fixed. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asiana_Airlines_Flight_214 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asiana_Airlines_Flight_214 [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Airways_Flight_38 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Airways_Flight_38 [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emirates_Flight_521 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emirates_Flight_521