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You cannot trust anything reported out of China, absolutely nothing. I do not doubt that there are people being slaughtered and massacred as I write, but anythi

You cannot trust anything reported out of China, absolutely nothing. I do not doubt that there are people being slaughtered and massacred as I write, but anything reported out of China must be taken deeply suspicious, especially if it comes from the government. The Chinese government is the single greatest threat to freedom, and human rights this world has ever seen.

newacct583 6y ago
The... single greatest? Not the great empire builders? Not the USSR? Modern China, really? Not even, y'know, the ancient chinese empires who subjugated most of asia? The PRC? I mean, just objectively modern chinese citizens, while they certainly don't live under western-level protection for expression, are (owing just to technology and nothing less) vastly more able to share their opinions widely and securely than... pretty much anyone under a totalitarian regime at any other time in history. I mean really: a Xinjiang dissident in the modern world can get messages out reliably and promptly about what is happening, including video documentation even. Even in the 1980's life in, say, Bulgaria or Uzbekistan was completely invisible even to intelligence agencies. I don't doubt that China does some terrible things. But this hyperbole isn't helping anyone.
- unityByFreedom 6y ago
  I don't think it's hyperbole. The CCP seeks to control social media by threatening to imprison anyone who speaks against it, even while outside China. And this isn't the first Chinese government to be accused of establishing too much state control over businesses [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tientsin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tientsin
- gfodor 6y ago
  Not going to fully defend the OP but the problem is things like the USSR were, in retrospect, unsustainable. The CCP, on the other hand, may have created just the right blend between totalitarianism, communism, and capitalism that is both sustainable and has global reach. We should not want to end up all-consumed by this form of government given how oppressive it is, and only time will tell just how all-consuming it can become.
  - newacct583 6y ago
    Meh. No one thought the USSR was "unsustainable" in the 80's when they were an evil empire. And within the decade they were gone. Nazi Germany didn't look "unsustainable" either, until they lost. All great powers look unbeatable during their ascendance and weak in retrospect. Could things get worse? Sure. But all I'm saying is that things have already been much, much, much worse. And we came out OK.
    - gfodor 6y ago
      I’m not disagreeing with your first point, but the fact is exactly what you said: it’s unknowable until after the collapse if it was the case. One day we will know if that’s true for the current regime. I do think the odds of it being both sustainable and not all-consuming are low, however.
    - T-A 6y ago
      > Meh. No one thought the USSR was "unsustainable" in the 80's when they were an evil empire. Actually, both the guy who coined that phrase and others did: https://www.nationalreview.com/2011/07/predicting-soviet-collapse-paul-kengor/ https://www.nationalreview.com/2011/07/predicting-soviet-col... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predictions_of_the_collapse_of_the_Soviet_Union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predictions_of_the_collapse_of...
- tourist_ 6y ago
  "... vastly more able to share their opinions widely and securely than..." CORRECTION - They are able to share their "approved" opinions.
  - newacct583 6y ago
    No, they're able to share their opinions opinions. I have chinese coworkers who will, given the opportunity, bitch about their government the same way we do. No, they aren't going to put it in email. They aren't going to use WeChat to do it. But they can absolutely do it. I've seen them do it when they're in the US for meetings. I've seen them do it over dinner at public restaurants in China. They simply are more "free", by any reasonable standard, than their grandparents in the PRC or their compatriots behind the iron curtain. Quite frankly they're more free to express inconvienent opinions than most minorities were in the US for most of the 20th century. The PRC government does some awful things. But the kind of hyperbolic nonsense we're engaging in here isn't helping the situation.
- refenestrator 6y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thucydides_Trap https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thucydides_Trap
  - meowface 6y ago
    >The Thucydides Trap, also referred to as Thucydides's Trap, is a term popularized by American political scientist Graham T. Allison to describe an apparent tendency towards war when an emerging power threatens to displace an existing great power as the international hegemon. It was coined and is primarily used to describe a potential conflict between the United States and the People's Republic of China. One shouldn't lump all antagonism towards a government together as a single thing. You can live in China, think the US government has a history of war crimes, subjugation, imperialism, plunder, genocide, and geopolitical treachery, and yet not want to go to war with the US. You can live in the US, think the Chinese government is engaging in genocide and creating an uniquely dystopian surveillance state where all thought and behavior can be monitored and shaped, and yet not want to go to war with China. I'm sure this trap is a real phenomenon, but pretty much every large human empire has been powered by a helm regularly committing horrible atrocities, so one hegemon will probably always be able to legitimately condemn a up-and-comer, and vice versa. I think it can be a bit dangerous to counter such discussion with accusations of war-seeking, because it lets rulers get away with more than they should. At least unless you have specific evidence suggesting the discussion isn't simply a case of people who are genuinely concerned about people for humanist reasons.
    - newacct583 6y ago
      Yes, but I think the point was that the rhetoric above, about a nation that was "single greatest threat to freedom, and human rights this world has ever seen", absolutely sounds like it's written by someone who very much does want to go to war with China.
      - unityByFreedom 6y ago
        > sounds like it's written by someone who very much does want to go to war with China. To me it sounds like they're saying we ought to be wary of the threat China poses to freedom. If they thought we should go to war they would say so. I only see people here calling for awareness and preparedness, not war.
- yellowapple 6y ago
  > Not the great empire builders? They haven't been a threat for centuries. > Not the USSR? The USSR's been dead for 3 decades now. > Not even, y'know, the ancient chinese empires who subjugated most of asia? They don't exist anymore, either.
  - newacct583 6y ago
    I think you whooshed on the point. Indeed, all those other guys were worse. And they're not here, and we are. China isn't the threat they're being presented as, they're just a convenient point of outrage for a demographic that craves outrage. In fact, if the upthread point had labelled the PRC the greatest threat to global freedom of the past three decades, then I'd be inclined to agree! But that's not what it said. And we made it through the cold war just fine.
    - yellowapple 6y ago
      > I think you whooshed on the point. I could say the same about your own grasp of the point; it doesn't seem relevant at all to bring up historical examples of threats to global freedom when we're discussing current examples of threats to global freedom - the PRC pretty unambiguously being one of them (and the US being another, to be clear).
      - snet0 6y ago
        The original commenter being replied to wrote "that this world has ever seen".
Clewza313 6y ago
You don't need to trust anybody's reporting, you can go browse Weibo or Toutiao or Douyin and go see for yourself what regular Chinese people are saying all across China right now. Sure, anything overly political is (self-)censored and there's some actual paid wumao shills in there, but day-to-day stuff like grumbling about local government incompetence is widespread. Here's the Xinjiang hashtag, go nuts: https://m.weibo.cn/search?containerid=231522type%3D1%26t%3D10%26q%3D%23%E6%96%B0%E7%96%86%23&isnewpage=1&luicode=10000011&lfid=231522type%3D1%26q%3D%23%E6%96%B0%E7%96%86%23 https://m.weibo.cn/search?containerid=231522type%3D1%26t%3D1...
- unityByFreedom 6y ago
  Self censorship is huge. I admire dissidents living under authoritarian regimes who are brave enough to share their stories, whether they remain there or escape.
  - koheripbal 6y ago
    Read the thread you're replying to - there's little self-censorship.
    - unityByFreedom 6y ago
      How would you measure the amount of self-censorship?
- yorwba 6y ago
  The Xinjiang hashtag isn't really a good target, because it's high-profile enough that there's probably a dedicated team of censors monitoring it. And of course Weibo search doesn't work for Uyghur content. Try finding this post using any of the words in it: https://m.weibo.cn/detail/4606432605644442 https://m.weibo.cn/detail/4606432605644442 I found it by searching for Uyghur words in Latin script to find someone posting in Uyghur, then looking through their posting history. I think Weibo is pretty much useless as a source of unfiltered information, unless you're already a heavy Weibo user and can just stumble across things instead of having to rely on search.
axguscbklp 6y ago
>The Chinese government is the single greatest threat to freedom, and human rights this world has ever seen. How so? Its ability to expand its control beyond its current reach is pretty limited. It is surrounded by the lands and military forces of Russia, India, and the US and its client states like Japan and South Korea.
ngcazz 6y ago
And American imperialism is what, just and benign?

newacct583 6y ago

The... single greatest? Not the great empire builders? Not the USSR? Modern China, really? Not even, y'know, the ancient chinese empires who subjugated most of asia? The PRC? I mean, just objectively modern chinese citizens, while they certainly don't live under western-level protection for expression, are (owing just to technology and nothing less) vastly more able to share their opinions widely and securely than... pretty much anyone under a totalitarian regime at any other time in history. I mean really: a Xinjiang dissident in the modern world can get messages out reliably and promptly about what is happening, including video documentation even. Even in the 1980's life in, say, Bulgaria or Uzbekistan was completely invisible even to intelligence agencies. I don't doubt that China does some terrible things. But this hyperbole isn't helping anyone.

unityByFreedom 6y ago
I don't think it's hyperbole. The CCP seeks to control social media by threatening to imprison anyone who speaks against it, even while outside China. And this isn't the first Chinese government to be accused of establishing too much state control over businesses [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tientsin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tientsin
gfodor 6y ago
Not going to fully defend the OP but the problem is things like the USSR were, in retrospect, unsustainable. The CCP, on the other hand, may have created just the right blend between totalitarianism, communism, and capitalism that is both sustainable and has global reach. We should not want to end up all-consumed by this form of government given how oppressive it is, and only time will tell just how all-consuming it can become.
- newacct583 6y ago
  Meh. No one thought the USSR was "unsustainable" in the 80's when they were an evil empire. And within the decade they were gone. Nazi Germany didn't look "unsustainable" either, until they lost. All great powers look unbeatable during their ascendance and weak in retrospect. Could things get worse? Sure. But all I'm saying is that things have already been much, much, much worse. And we came out OK.
  - gfodor 6y ago
    I’m not disagreeing with your first point, but the fact is exactly what you said: it’s unknowable until after the collapse if it was the case. One day we will know if that’s true for the current regime. I do think the odds of it being both sustainable and not all-consuming are low, however.
  - T-A 6y ago
    > Meh. No one thought the USSR was "unsustainable" in the 80's when they were an evil empire. Actually, both the guy who coined that phrase and others did: https://www.nationalreview.com/2011/07/predicting-soviet-collapse-paul-kengor/ https://www.nationalreview.com/2011/07/predicting-soviet-col... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predictions_of_the_collapse_of_the_Soviet_Union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predictions_of_the_collapse_of...
tourist_ 6y ago
"... vastly more able to share their opinions widely and securely than..." CORRECTION - They are able to share their "approved" opinions.
- newacct583 6y ago
  No, they're able to share their opinions opinions. I have chinese coworkers who will, given the opportunity, bitch about their government the same way we do. No, they aren't going to put it in email. They aren't going to use WeChat to do it. But they can absolutely do it. I've seen them do it when they're in the US for meetings. I've seen them do it over dinner at public restaurants in China. They simply are more "free", by any reasonable standard, than their grandparents in the PRC or their compatriots behind the iron curtain. Quite frankly they're more free to express inconvienent opinions than most minorities were in the US for most of the 20th century. The PRC government does some awful things. But the kind of hyperbolic nonsense we're engaging in here isn't helping the situation.
refenestrator 6y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thucydides_Trap https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thucydides_Trap
- meowface 6y ago
  >The Thucydides Trap, also referred to as Thucydides's Trap, is a term popularized by American political scientist Graham T. Allison to describe an apparent tendency towards war when an emerging power threatens to displace an existing great power as the international hegemon. It was coined and is primarily used to describe a potential conflict between the United States and the People's Republic of China. One shouldn't lump all antagonism towards a government together as a single thing. You can live in China, think the US government has a history of war crimes, subjugation, imperialism, plunder, genocide, and geopolitical treachery, and yet not want to go to war with the US. You can live in the US, think the Chinese government is engaging in genocide and creating an uniquely dystopian surveillance state where all thought and behavior can be monitored and shaped, and yet not want to go to war with China. I'm sure this trap is a real phenomenon, but pretty much every large human empire has been powered by a helm regularly committing horrible atrocities, so one hegemon will probably always be able to legitimately condemn a up-and-comer, and vice versa. I think it can be a bit dangerous to counter such discussion with accusations of war-seeking, because it lets rulers get away with more than they should. At least unless you have specific evidence suggesting the discussion isn't simply a case of people who are genuinely concerned about people for humanist reasons.
  - newacct583 6y ago
    Yes, but I think the point was that the rhetoric above, about a nation that was "single greatest threat to freedom, and human rights this world has ever seen", absolutely sounds like it's written by someone who very much does want to go to war with China.
    - unityByFreedom 6y ago
      > sounds like it's written by someone who very much does want to go to war with China. To me it sounds like they're saying we ought to be wary of the threat China poses to freedom. If they thought we should go to war they would say so. I only see people here calling for awareness and preparedness, not war.
yellowapple 6y ago
> Not the great empire builders? They haven't been a threat for centuries. > Not the USSR? The USSR's been dead for 3 decades now. > Not even, y'know, the ancient chinese empires who subjugated most of asia? They don't exist anymore, either.
- newacct583 6y ago
  I think you whooshed on the point. Indeed, all those other guys were worse. And they're not here, and we are. China isn't the threat they're being presented as, they're just a convenient point of outrage for a demographic that craves outrage. In fact, if the upthread point had labelled the PRC the greatest threat to global freedom of the past three decades, then I'd be inclined to agree! But that's not what it said. And we made it through the cold war just fine.
  - yellowapple 6y ago
    > I think you whooshed on the point. I could say the same about your own grasp of the point; it doesn't seem relevant at all to bring up historical examples of threats to global freedom when we're discussing current examples of threats to global freedom - the PRC pretty unambiguously being one of them (and the US being another, to be clear).
    - snet0 6y ago
      The original commenter being replied to wrote "that this world has ever seen".

Clewza313 6y ago

You don't need to trust anybody's reporting, you can go browse Weibo or Toutiao or Douyin and go see for yourself what regular Chinese people are saying all across China right now. Sure, anything overly political is (self-)censored and there's some actual paid wumao shills in there, but day-to-day stuff like grumbling about local government incompetence is widespread. Here's the Xinjiang hashtag, go nuts: https://m.weibo.cn/search?containerid=231522type%3D1%26t%3D10%26q%3D%23%E6%96%B0%E7%96%86%23&isnewpage=1&luicode=10000011&lfid=231522type%3D1%26q%3D%23%E6%96%B0%E7%96%86%23 https://m.weibo.cn/search?containerid=231522type%3D1%26t%3D1...

unityByFreedom 6y ago
Self censorship is huge. I admire dissidents living under authoritarian regimes who are brave enough to share their stories, whether they remain there or escape.
- koheripbal 6y ago
  Read the thread you're replying to - there's little self-censorship.
  - unityByFreedom 6y ago
    How would you measure the amount of self-censorship?
yorwba 6y ago
The Xinjiang hashtag isn't really a good target, because it's high-profile enough that there's probably a dedicated team of censors monitoring it. And of course Weibo search doesn't work for Uyghur content. Try finding this post using any of the words in it: https://m.weibo.cn/detail/4606432605644442 https://m.weibo.cn/detail/4606432605644442 I found it by searching for Uyghur words in Latin script to find someone posting in Uyghur, then looking through their posting history. I think Weibo is pretty much useless as a source of unfiltered information, unless you're already a heavy Weibo user and can just stumble across things instead of having to rely on search.

axguscbklp 6y ago

>The Chinese government is the single greatest threat to freedom, and human rights this world has ever seen. How so? Its ability to expand its control beyond its current reach is pretty limited. It is surrounded by the lands and military forces of Russia, India, and the US and its client states like Japan and South Korea.

ngcazz 6y ago

And American imperialism is what, just and benign?