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Do you consider Church-Turing Thesis couched in a culture of human exceptionalism too? Or is this the one argument that is not? I consider this is the best the

by orwin 6y ago

Do you consider Church-Turing Thesis couched in a culture of human exceptionalism too? Or is this the one argument that is not? I consider this is the best theory against AGI, and if AGI come to fruition, it would mean that this thesis was invalid (i do like Turing, but i'm pretty sure i wouldn't be mad if he was wrong about this in 1936, when no computer existed). And also it put me in a comfortable position: as long as we don't create something more complex than ourselves, Turing was right, and there is no chance we're living in a simulation. If he was wrong, well, i think the argument was "if we could test human behavior in a lifelike simulation, we would", and life would loose a lot a meaning for a lot of people.

tsimionescu 6y ago
How is the Church-Turing thesis an argument against AGI? If anything, it is an argument FOR AGI: it claims that a Turing machine is capable of solving any problem that can be solved, which directly implies that you can create a computer with the exact reasoning capacities of the human mind (or more). AGI would be a strong signal that the thesis is valid, though it remains un provable (as it is an assertion about an informal idea, 'functions that can be solved'). Thinking about simulations leads nowhere, so I won't engage, it's too far outside of what can be reasonably investigated, it's scientifically sounding religion.
LesZedCB 6y ago
> Do you consider Church-Turing Thesis couched in a culture of human exceptionalism too? there is a branch of philosophy called logical positivism or logical empiricism, which in my understanding only deals with statements that can be proven a priori or via verifiability. Church-Turing Thesis exists within this framework, as far as i can tell. i think that's supremely boring and leaves out the entire other half of epistemological discussion. but honestly i dont see how this thesis holds any bearing on AI, maybe you can bridge the gap for me. > life would loose a lot a meaning for a lot of people this is so loaded with metaphysical assumptions it's hard to engage with. to rephrase "if i was deterministic, my life would be meaningless" is exactly the kind of reasoning somebody who is a human exceptionalist would use without realizing that's what they are stating.
- tsimionescu 6y ago
  The Church-Turing thesis is not logically provable, as it asserts that an informal concept, 'any solvable problem', can be formally defined as 'any problem solvable by a Turing machine', or equivalently by a few other models of computation (primitive recursive functions, lambda calculus, others discovered in the meantime). The equivalency of the formal models is well-proven. However, equivalency between a formal construct and an informal human idea is outside the realm of what we can even attempt to currently prove.

by orwin 6y ago

tsimionescu 6y ago

How is the Church-Turing thesis an argument against AGI? If anything, it is an argument FOR AGI: it claims that a Turing machine is capable of solving any problem that can be solved, which directly implies that you can create a computer with the exact reasoning capacities of the human mind (or more). AGI would be a strong signal that the thesis is valid, though it remains un provable (as it is an assertion about an informal idea, 'functions that can be solved'). Thinking about simulations leads nowhere, so I won't engage, it's too far outside of what can be reasonably investigated, it's scientifically sounding religion.

LesZedCB 6y ago

> Do you consider Church-Turing Thesis couched in a culture of human exceptionalism too? there is a branch of philosophy called logical positivism or logical empiricism, which in my understanding only deals with statements that can be proven a priori or via verifiability. Church-Turing Thesis exists within this framework, as far as i can tell. i think that's supremely boring and leaves out the entire other half of epistemological discussion. but honestly i dont see how this thesis holds any bearing on AI, maybe you can bridge the gap for me. > life would loose a lot a meaning for a lot of people this is so loaded with metaphysical assumptions it's hard to engage with. to rephrase "if i was deterministic, my life would be meaningless" is exactly the kind of reasoning somebody who is a human exceptionalist would use without realizing that's what they are stating.

tsimionescu 6y ago
The Church-Turing thesis is not logically provable, as it asserts that an informal concept, 'any solvable problem', can be formally defined as 'any problem solvable by a Turing machine', or equivalently by a few other models of computation (primitive recursive functions, lambda calculus, others discovered in the meantime). The equivalency of the formal models is well-proven. However, equivalency between a formal construct and an informal human idea is outside the realm of what we can even attempt to currently prove.