5 ms·

When we get to equality in representation and pay across genders in the tech industry then maybe your argument might have some merit. Until then…

shortandsweet 6y ago
And we'll cancel and silence everyone's opinions and feelings until that happens?
ubersync 6y ago
Wage gap has been proven to be a myth. What exists is a "earning gap". Men earn more because they put in longer hours, on average. The only industry that has a demonstrably huge wage gap is modeling (and porn), where female models make orders of magnitude more money than male models. Regarding representation, no one is forcing women out of tech industry. There are fewer women in tech, because fewer women choose to study STEM in college. Also, why don't women ask for "equal representation" in other industries which are male-dominated like garbage collectors, sewage workers etc.
- shortandsweet 6y ago
  Actually it's not a myth. Look up bureau of labor statistics. Women clearly make less than men. I feel something must be done to resolve compensation when controlling for skills, experience, etc, gender alone shouldn't result in lower pay. https://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat11.htm https://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat11.htm
  - shortandsweet 6y ago
    Oops wrong link https://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat39.htm https://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat39.htm
  - ubersync 6y ago
    Again, there is no difference in average hourly rate of wage. Men make more money than women because men (on average) work more hours a week as compared to women. Also men take fewer days off (on average). Thats the reason behind the mythical "wage gap". So, the correct term for it is "earnings gap". In fact, the reverse is true for younger women. Younger women make more money than younger men: https://www.theguardian.com/money/2015/aug/29/women-in-20s-earn-more-men-same-age-study-finds https://www.theguardian.com/money/2015/aug/29/women-in-20s-e... edit: The updated link you provided tells average "weekly earning", not an hourly wage rate.
    - shortandsweet 6y ago
      Read the data. Salary jobs don't get paid more for working more. Paid vacation is the norm for professionals. https://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat39.htm https://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat39.htm
      - ubersync 6y ago
        > Salary jobs don't get paid more for working more. Incorrect. Many salary jobs pay for over-time (and again, men are more likely to work over-time, on average).
        wfme 6y ago
        You seem adamant that overtime makes up the entire difference. Do you have any data to back that up, or is this just a strongly held opinion?
      - twic 6y ago
        If you read the data carefully, it's more complicated than that. https://freakonomics.com/podcast/the-true-story-of-the-gender-pay-gap-a-new-freakonomics-radio-podcast/ https://freakonomics.com/podcast/the-true-story-of-the-gende... https://www.aeaweb.org/articles?id=10.1257/aer.p20161124 https://www.aeaweb.org/articles?id=10.1257/aer.p20161124 There have been a bunch of studies of this, and the conclusions are pretty consistent: women aren't paid less for doing equal work, they're paid less because they end up doing less or lower-paid work once they have children, because they do a disproportionate share of the childcare. This should still be fixed, but it means the fix is mostly about what happens at home, not what happens at work, which is much more difficult.
- RulingWalnut 6y ago
  Women ABSOLUTELY ask for equality/equity in other industries! Firefighting: https://www.powerdms.com/blog/women-in-the-fire-service/ https://www.powerdms.com/blog/women-in-the-fire-service/ Sanitation: https://www.worldbank.org/en/news/feature/2019/08/27/breaking-barriers https://www.worldbank.org/en/news/feature/2019/08/27/breakin... This took me literally 45 seconds of googling.
- Niksko 6y ago
  > no one is forcing women out of the tech industry Nobody said that. They never end up in the tech industry to begin with, because they're either dissuaded in high school, or they start and then leave because it's such a male-dominated environment
  - frongpik 6y ago
    If this was the cause, schools could form women-only stem classes.
  - jimbokun 6y ago
    > because they're either dissuaded in high school Any evidence for this claim? There are a lot of efforts to increase the number of women studying science and technology.
    - tovej 6y ago
      I think this is almost common knowledge by now. It even has a wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_education_in_STEM https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_education_in_STEM And if that isn't enough, a quick search on the web found a number of published papers on the subject: https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2017.00716/full https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2017.0071... https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1948550612440735 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/194855061244073... https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11199-011-0051-0 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11199-011-0051-0
      - mpweiher 6y ago
        > https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2017.00716/full https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2017.0071... " to describe the potential influence..." So no actual evidence of anything. > https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11199-011-0051-0 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11199-011-0051-0 "Stereotype Threat". "A meta-analysis by Flore and Wicherts (2015) concluded that the average reported effect of stereotype threat is small, but also that the field may be inflated by publication bias. They argued that, correcting for this, the most likely true effect size is near zero.[19]" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereotype_threat#Criticism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereotype_threat#Criticism The third reference wasn't available, so can't comment. These types of "studies" tend to suffer from causal inversion, i.e. "wet roads cause rain", in arguing that the perception of these fields as male-dominated causes women to not enter them. The simpler and more plausible explanation is stereotyp accuracy: people correctly perceive these fields as male-dominated because women tend to not enter them. That such a perception is an effective deterrent seems implausible given the many other fields that used to be completely male-dominated and are now female-dominated (for example veterinary medicine). As a feminist, I also can't get on-board with a view of women as such delicate fragile flowers that such perceptions would prevent them from doing something they like, and it doesn't match the women in my life...but maybe I have been blessed with unusually non-delicate women, who knows? Finally, who says it is female underrepresentation? Maybe it is male overrepresentation? And in fact, there is strong evidence that this is the case. Both men and women who score well in both verbal and math SATs tend to go into non-STEM fields. People who only do well in math tend to go into STEM fields, partly because they don't have a choice. And that group is largely male.
- wfme 6y ago
  > There are fewer women in tech, because fewer women choose to study STEM in college. Why do you think there are fewer women who choose to study STEM? Anecdotally, they often don't end up studying STEM subjects because they're encouraged to focus on other subjects in high school.
  - jimbokun 6y ago
    > Anecdotally, they often don't end up studying STEM subjects because they're encouraged to focus on other subjects in high school. Definitely citation needed, there are countless "Women in STEM" initiatives, almost begging girls to go into STEM fields.
    - wfme 6y ago
      Sure: https://www.pwc.co.uk/women-in-technology/women-in-tech-report.pdf https://www.pwc.co.uk/women-in-technology/women-in-tech-repo... > What’s clear is that there’s a vicious circle of perception and reality in terms of gender imbalance. And that schools, universities and industry are failing to show young people – and especially girls – the realities of technology jobs and careers in today’s world. > Despite such exciting opportunities, girls aren’t considering technology as a career – partly because nobody is putting it forward as a possible option. While 33% of male respondents say they’ve had a career in technology suggested to them, the figure for females is only 16% – a glaring lack of advice that’s helping to reinforce the stereotype of a male dominated industry.
      - jimbokun 6y ago
        > Our research shows that their main reasons for not choosing to study STEM topics include: being better or gaining better grades in humanities or other essay based subjects; not finding STEM subjects as interesting; STEM subjects not being relevant to the career they plan to choose; teachers not making STEM subjects appealing; and the need to get the highest possible grade, as this influences both university entrance and future career options. So even this slide deck points to a difference in interests and aptitudes as a key driving factor in women focusing less on STEM careers.
faeriechangling 6y ago
Wouldn't this be ideal be an injustice if even slightly more boys wanted to enter the tech industry than women?

shortandsweet 6y ago

And we'll cancel and silence everyone's opinions and feelings until that happens?

ubersync 6y ago

Wage gap has been proven to be a myth. What exists is a "earning gap". Men earn more because they put in longer hours, on average. The only industry that has a demonstrably huge wage gap is modeling (and porn), where female models make orders of magnitude more money than male models. Regarding representation, no one is forcing women out of tech industry. There are fewer women in tech, because fewer women choose to study STEM in college. Also, why don't women ask for "equal representation" in other industries which are male-dominated like garbage collectors, sewage workers etc.

shortandsweet 6y ago
Actually it's not a myth. Look up bureau of labor statistics. Women clearly make less than men. I feel something must be done to resolve compensation when controlling for skills, experience, etc, gender alone shouldn't result in lower pay. https://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat11.htm https://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat11.htm
- shortandsweet 6y ago
  Oops wrong link https://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat39.htm https://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat39.htm
- ubersync 6y ago
  Again, there is no difference in average hourly rate of wage. Men make more money than women because men (on average) work more hours a week as compared to women. Also men take fewer days off (on average). Thats the reason behind the mythical "wage gap". So, the correct term for it is "earnings gap". In fact, the reverse is true for younger women. Younger women make more money than younger men: https://www.theguardian.com/money/2015/aug/29/women-in-20s-earn-more-men-same-age-study-finds https://www.theguardian.com/money/2015/aug/29/women-in-20s-e... edit: The updated link you provided tells average "weekly earning", not an hourly wage rate.
  - shortandsweet 6y ago
    Read the data. Salary jobs don't get paid more for working more. Paid vacation is the norm for professionals. https://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat39.htm https://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat39.htm
    - ubersync 6y ago
      > Salary jobs don't get paid more for working more. Incorrect. Many salary jobs pay for over-time (and again, men are more likely to work over-time, on average).
      - wfme 6y ago
        You seem adamant that overtime makes up the entire difference. Do you have any data to back that up, or is this just a strongly held opinion?
    - twic 6y ago
      If you read the data carefully, it's more complicated than that. https://freakonomics.com/podcast/the-true-story-of-the-gender-pay-gap-a-new-freakonomics-radio-podcast/ https://freakonomics.com/podcast/the-true-story-of-the-gende... https://www.aeaweb.org/articles?id=10.1257/aer.p20161124 https://www.aeaweb.org/articles?id=10.1257/aer.p20161124 There have been a bunch of studies of this, and the conclusions are pretty consistent: women aren't paid less for doing equal work, they're paid less because they end up doing less or lower-paid work once they have children, because they do a disproportionate share of the childcare. This should still be fixed, but it means the fix is mostly about what happens at home, not what happens at work, which is much more difficult.
RulingWalnut 6y ago
Women ABSOLUTELY ask for equality/equity in other industries! Firefighting: https://www.powerdms.com/blog/women-in-the-fire-service/ https://www.powerdms.com/blog/women-in-the-fire-service/ Sanitation: https://www.worldbank.org/en/news/feature/2019/08/27/breaking-barriers https://www.worldbank.org/en/news/feature/2019/08/27/breakin... This took me literally 45 seconds of googling.
Niksko 6y ago
> no one is forcing women out of the tech industry Nobody said that. They never end up in the tech industry to begin with, because they're either dissuaded in high school, or they start and then leave because it's such a male-dominated environment
- frongpik 6y ago
  If this was the cause, schools could form women-only stem classes.
- jimbokun 6y ago
  > because they're either dissuaded in high school Any evidence for this claim? There are a lot of efforts to increase the number of women studying science and technology.
  - tovej 6y ago
    I think this is almost common knowledge by now. It even has a wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_education_in_STEM https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_education_in_STEM And if that isn't enough, a quick search on the web found a number of published papers on the subject: https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2017.00716/full https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2017.0071... https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1948550612440735 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/194855061244073... https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11199-011-0051-0 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11199-011-0051-0
    - mpweiher 6y ago
      > https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2017.00716/full https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2017.0071... " to describe the potential influence..." So no actual evidence of anything. > https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11199-011-0051-0 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11199-011-0051-0 "Stereotype Threat". "A meta-analysis by Flore and Wicherts (2015) concluded that the average reported effect of stereotype threat is small, but also that the field may be inflated by publication bias. They argued that, correcting for this, the most likely true effect size is near zero.[19]" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereotype_threat#Criticism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereotype_threat#Criticism The third reference wasn't available, so can't comment. These types of "studies" tend to suffer from causal inversion, i.e. "wet roads cause rain", in arguing that the perception of these fields as male-dominated causes women to not enter them. The simpler and more plausible explanation is stereotyp accuracy: people correctly perceive these fields as male-dominated because women tend to not enter them. That such a perception is an effective deterrent seems implausible given the many other fields that used to be completely male-dominated and are now female-dominated (for example veterinary medicine). As a feminist, I also can't get on-board with a view of women as such delicate fragile flowers that such perceptions would prevent them from doing something they like, and it doesn't match the women in my life...but maybe I have been blessed with unusually non-delicate women, who knows? Finally, who says it is female underrepresentation? Maybe it is male overrepresentation? And in fact, there is strong evidence that this is the case. Both men and women who score well in both verbal and math SATs tend to go into non-STEM fields. People who only do well in math tend to go into STEM fields, partly because they don't have a choice. And that group is largely male.
wfme 6y ago
> There are fewer women in tech, because fewer women choose to study STEM in college. Why do you think there are fewer women who choose to study STEM? Anecdotally, they often don't end up studying STEM subjects because they're encouraged to focus on other subjects in high school.
- jimbokun 6y ago
  > Anecdotally, they often don't end up studying STEM subjects because they're encouraged to focus on other subjects in high school. Definitely citation needed, there are countless "Women in STEM" initiatives, almost begging girls to go into STEM fields.
  - wfme 6y ago
    Sure: https://www.pwc.co.uk/women-in-technology/women-in-tech-report.pdf https://www.pwc.co.uk/women-in-technology/women-in-tech-repo... > What’s clear is that there’s a vicious circle of perception and reality in terms of gender imbalance. And that schools, universities and industry are failing to show young people – and especially girls – the realities of technology jobs and careers in today’s world. > Despite such exciting opportunities, girls aren’t considering technology as a career – partly because nobody is putting it forward as a possible option. While 33% of male respondents say they’ve had a career in technology suggested to them, the figure for females is only 16% – a glaring lack of advice that’s helping to reinforce the stereotype of a male dominated industry.
    - jimbokun 6y ago
      > Our research shows that their main reasons for not choosing to study STEM topics include: being better or gaining better grades in humanities or other essay based subjects; not finding STEM subjects as interesting; STEM subjects not being relevant to the career they plan to choose; teachers not making STEM subjects appealing; and the need to get the highest possible grade, as this influences both university entrance and future career options. So even this slide deck points to a difference in interests and aptitudes as a key driving factor in women focusing less on STEM careers.

faeriechangling 6y ago

Wouldn't this be ideal be an injustice if even slightly more boys wanted to enter the tech industry than women?