5 ms·

In this case I doubt "two HN users doing daily development and production on a new Mac" are so unique as to be incomparable. And arguing that certain users are

In this case I doubt "two HN users doing daily development and production on a new Mac" are so unique as to be incomparable. And arguing that certain users are in a minority such that they can be ignored - without hard proof mind you, and keeping in mind that knowledge work is squarely the demographic for people requiring high performance processors in the Apple space (or else they wouldn't push that angle so hard in their advertising) - when the functionality was stable on previous platforms much older than the so-called cutting edge, is justifying a regression in functionality by blaming user expectations. This is consumer hostile.

matwood 6y ago
> In this case I doubt "two HN users doing daily development and production on a new Mac" are so unique as to be incomparable. I would have argued the opposite. Every developer I know, myself included, tweaks every last aspect of their machine to their exact liking - even on a Mac. And I didn't say they should be ignored, and said the opposite. > So while I think bugs around re-installing are important and need to get fixed The point is it's a bug impacting a subset of users and needs to get fixed. IMO, it's not one worthy of multiple HN front page posts, but here we are :)
- LeoNatan25 6y ago
  Clearly it is important to the people posting the issues, and people upvoting. People, which are some of the main target audience of “pro” dubbed machines. The truth is, however, that there is nothing “pro” about Apple products anymore. Anything outside of the most mundane happy-path is often broken in strange ways. And the typical Apple drone response is: “Who does that anyway? I certainly don’t! So manage your expectations.” Apple software is buggy and broken beyond belief. Hardware might be good, but that is increasingly beside the point, given how broken Apple software and UX are.
  - coldtea 6y ago
    >The truth is, however, that there is nothing “pro” about Apple products anymore. The truth this is a tired of chessnut that we've been hearing for 15+ years... And yet, judging from their laptop choices at conferences, developer videos, and so on, over half of industry leading devs across many communities (from Node to Java, and from Go to Rust and whatever else) use those laptops. >Apple software is buggy and broken beyond belief. Not my experience. That said, you're free to use the non-broken Windows and/or Linux OSes!
    - LeoNatan25 6y ago
      I have not been saying that in the past. I am saying it now. I also use Windows increasingly more and more, and experience significantly less bugs, even in old Win32 APIs which still “just work”, unlike Apple’s many many frameworks (new and old) which are broken in different ways. Or its system software, which keeps getting rewritten in half-assed ways with missing feature, and then never revisited or fixed.
  - matwood 6y ago
    > The truth is, however, that there is nothing “pro” about Apple products anymore. Anymore? I feel like a lot of people romanticize old Apple. For example, the first few versions of OS X were pretty bad. They did finally settle down, but then entered a yin/yang good/bad release schedule. There was time when installing a beta or even .0 version was almost guaranteed to lose data. Now, I tend to run betas pretty early on. There are some bugs, but they mostly work. I don't see Apple products as any more or less 'pro' than they have always been. Once the software catches up, my m1 MBA doesn't seem anymore or less capable than my G4 Powerbook. TBH, the M1 MBA is already more capable because at the time software had already moved on to Intel while I still had my G4. IMO, the biggest missteps that I would consider less pro on the portable side would be the 1 port MB, and the keyboard. Both of which Apple has moved on from, though the keyboard took way too long to address. I know people complain about ports, but I find usbc (unless there's only 1), the most pro thing about apple laptops because they can morph into anything a pro may need.

matwood 6y ago

> In this case I doubt "two HN users doing daily development and production on a new Mac" are so unique as to be incomparable. I would have argued the opposite. Every developer I know, myself included, tweaks every last aspect of their machine to their exact liking - even on a Mac. And I didn't say they should be ignored, and said the opposite. > So while I think bugs around re-installing are important and need to get fixed The point is it's a bug impacting a subset of users and needs to get fixed. IMO, it's not one worthy of multiple HN front page posts, but here we are :)

LeoNatan25 6y ago
Clearly it is important to the people posting the issues, and people upvoting. People, which are some of the main target audience of “pro” dubbed machines. The truth is, however, that there is nothing “pro” about Apple products anymore. Anything outside of the most mundane happy-path is often broken in strange ways. And the typical Apple drone response is: “Who does that anyway? I certainly don’t! So manage your expectations.” Apple software is buggy and broken beyond belief. Hardware might be good, but that is increasingly beside the point, given how broken Apple software and UX are.
- coldtea 6y ago
  >The truth is, however, that there is nothing “pro” about Apple products anymore. The truth this is a tired of chessnut that we've been hearing for 15+ years... And yet, judging from their laptop choices at conferences, developer videos, and so on, over half of industry leading devs across many communities (from Node to Java, and from Go to Rust and whatever else) use those laptops. >Apple software is buggy and broken beyond belief. Not my experience. That said, you're free to use the non-broken Windows and/or Linux OSes!
  - LeoNatan25 6y ago
    I have not been saying that in the past. I am saying it now. I also use Windows increasingly more and more, and experience significantly less bugs, even in old Win32 APIs which still “just work”, unlike Apple’s many many frameworks (new and old) which are broken in different ways. Or its system software, which keeps getting rewritten in half-assed ways with missing feature, and then never revisited or fixed.
- matwood 6y ago
  > The truth is, however, that there is nothing “pro” about Apple products anymore. Anymore? I feel like a lot of people romanticize old Apple. For example, the first few versions of OS X were pretty bad. They did finally settle down, but then entered a yin/yang good/bad release schedule. There was time when installing a beta or even .0 version was almost guaranteed to lose data. Now, I tend to run betas pretty early on. There are some bugs, but they mostly work. I don't see Apple products as any more or less 'pro' than they have always been. Once the software catches up, my m1 MBA doesn't seem anymore or less capable than my G4 Powerbook. TBH, the M1 MBA is already more capable because at the time software had already moved on to Intel while I still had my G4. IMO, the biggest missteps that I would consider less pro on the portable side would be the 1 port MB, and the keyboard. Both of which Apple has moved on from, though the keyboard took way too long to address. I know people complain about ports, but I find usbc (unless there's only 1), the most pro thing about apple laptops because they can morph into anything a pro may need.