4 ms·

I say this as someone who was a nerd in the '70s, before it was cool, but the problem is, we have a bunch of children that needs to be taught many subjects to b

by ralphc 6y ago

I say this as someone who was a nerd in the '70s, before it was cool, but the problem is, we have a bunch of children that needs to be taught many subjects to be productive citizens, at a level of expertise not seen in history. Their parents go to jobs during the day. What is a better solution than what we do right now? It's certainly not perfect but what can we do better? In the past we had apprentice programs but youth learned one trade, little history, math, "social studies", other things we expect people to know. We are trying an experiment right now due to the pandemic - remote learning. It exposes a digital divide for sure, but we can all see where that would be less of an issue in the future. It's being called a failure by parents, kids are falling behind, mental health issues are climbing. Kids, people in general, need some kind of social interaction for their health. So, back to school? Back to my original question? What can be better than what we do now?

Bakary 6y ago
Better training for teachers, higher barriers to entry, and much stronger incentives to be a teacher. Namely, a higher salary. With degree inflation, the status of teachers has decreased sharply when they are in fact one of the most important professions at an aggregate level. There are tons of social and economic problems that are directly the result of piss-poor education systems.
- whitepaint 6y ago
  > Better training for teachers, higher barriers to entry, and much stronger incentives to be a teacher. How do you achieve that? By privatizing schools?
  - Bakary 6y ago
    Reforming the degrees and schools that train teachers. Increasing teacher salaries in the public sector. Essentially making it more selective but giving a higher reward goes hand in hand. Making it a funnel where a portion of unmotivated and planless people go helps neither the profession nor the students IMO. The private sector usually does fine on its own since they cater to the wealthy and have the necessary resources. Some countries take teachers very seriously, such as Finland, so it's definitely something that is possible to implement if still much harder in a very large country.
  - imtringued 6y ago
    If you really want to privatize schools they absolutely most be non profit with salary caps. (not 2x more than the median salary). In practice privatization doesn't work because rich parents can afford expensive schools and their children perform better simply because they aren't poor. Additionally, private schools don't take on disabled or delayed students because that would ruin profits.
BrianOnHN 6y ago
> as someone who was a nerd in the '70s, before it was cool > What can be better than what we do now? HN threads on any education topic are always littered with oversimplified causes and "silver bullet" solutions. My guess is that it's mostly from the "nerds are cool" generation. Being on the cusp of the two generations, I'm not so willing to throw out the 100+ years of evolution in institutionalized education. One thing we can do better now? Bring back and/or increase focus on civics, history, and social studies. This for obvious reasons, like the right-wing/populist political debacle, but also as a way to develop an inherent ambition as a result of a better understanding of our society and how it can be changed.
- imtringued 6y ago
  >One thing we can do better now? Bring back and/or increase focus on civics, history, and social studies. This for obvious reasons, like the right-wing/populist political debacle, but also as a way to develop an inherent ambition as a result of a better understanding of our society and how it can be changed. Extremism and populism aren't caused by children. In fact it's the opposite. It's the children that are fighting for rational causes. Why do we have "a" Greta Thunberg? Because adults failed.
  - Chris2048 6y ago
    > Why do we have "a" Greta Thunberg? because certain politicians and activists are willing to exploit children to promote their cause?
  - triceratops 6y ago
    Why did the adults fail? Arguably because they weren't taught any better when they were children themselves.
- Chris2048 6y ago
  Civics I get, but how the hell will history help?
  - BrianOnHN 6y ago
ip26 6y ago
Yeah, there are a limited set of options. * school * apprenticeship * one parent (with near certainty the mother) must stay home * large extended families i.e. grandma raises the kids All but school are incomplete. A five year old can’t apprentice. Many people aren’t blessed with grandparents close by who can raise kids. Stay at home parenting works for some, but not single parents- and many women want to work. I get the feeling many “school is just daycare!” critics quietly prefer women pick between kids & career- though I could be wrong. It’s also important to consider that, for most of human history, a child who is with their parents 24/7/365 is an anomaly. Kids need socializing with other people, and parents need a break. The same way spouses in a healthy relationship need time apart.
- monoideism 6y ago
  > for most of human history, a child who is with their parents 24/7/365 is an anomaly Where do you get this idea? It's actually the opposite. Modern universal schooling is an aberration that only took hold in the 1800s, with some schooling for the upper classes before that. For most of recorded history, children helped their parents around the house and field, with some going off to an apprenticeship around 12-14.
  - ip26 6y ago
    Modern schooling is obviously new, but in tribal communities the world over, children are watched over by many adults over the course of the day. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/It_takes_a_village https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/It_takes_a_village As for recorded history, kids had a lot more unstructured time to themselves even fifty years ago to play in the mud or run about the neighborhood.
    - lotsofpulp 6y ago
      From what I can tell, the change comes with motor vehicles, when people have to start monitoring the kids' every moment. Before motor vehicles arrive, you just set them out to play and other adults/older children take care of them. After motor vehicles, there's a lot more risk to just letting them roam, and now you have to arrange an area where they can play and since there isn't a lot of people milling about outside that can watch them, the parents and other immediate family members shoulder more of the load.
triceratops 6y ago
Pay teachers much more money. Make it easier to fire them for underperformance. Provide better support systems for poorer families - childcare, healthcare, food security, physical safety, and so on. Children from poorer, stressed-out families tend do worse in school.

by ralphc 6y ago

Bakary 6y ago

Better training for teachers, higher barriers to entry, and much stronger incentives to be a teacher. Namely, a higher salary. With degree inflation, the status of teachers has decreased sharply when they are in fact one of the most important professions at an aggregate level. There are tons of social and economic problems that are directly the result of piss-poor education systems.

whitepaint 6y ago
> Better training for teachers, higher barriers to entry, and much stronger incentives to be a teacher. How do you achieve that? By privatizing schools?
- Bakary 6y ago
  Reforming the degrees and schools that train teachers. Increasing teacher salaries in the public sector. Essentially making it more selective but giving a higher reward goes hand in hand. Making it a funnel where a portion of unmotivated and planless people go helps neither the profession nor the students IMO. The private sector usually does fine on its own since they cater to the wealthy and have the necessary resources. Some countries take teachers very seriously, such as Finland, so it's definitely something that is possible to implement if still much harder in a very large country.
- imtringued 6y ago
  If you really want to privatize schools they absolutely most be non profit with salary caps. (not 2x more than the median salary). In practice privatization doesn't work because rich parents can afford expensive schools and their children perform better simply because they aren't poor. Additionally, private schools don't take on disabled or delayed students because that would ruin profits.

BrianOnHN 6y ago

> as someone who was a nerd in the '70s, before it was cool > What can be better than what we do now? HN threads on any education topic are always littered with oversimplified causes and "silver bullet" solutions. My guess is that it's mostly from the "nerds are cool" generation. Being on the cusp of the two generations, I'm not so willing to throw out the 100+ years of evolution in institutionalized education. One thing we can do better now? Bring back and/or increase focus on civics, history, and social studies. This for obvious reasons, like the right-wing/populist political debacle, but also as a way to develop an inherent ambition as a result of a better understanding of our society and how it can be changed.

imtringued 6y ago
>One thing we can do better now? Bring back and/or increase focus on civics, history, and social studies. This for obvious reasons, like the right-wing/populist political debacle, but also as a way to develop an inherent ambition as a result of a better understanding of our society and how it can be changed. Extremism and populism aren't caused by children. In fact it's the opposite. It's the children that are fighting for rational causes. Why do we have "a" Greta Thunberg? Because adults failed.
- Chris2048 6y ago
  > Why do we have "a" Greta Thunberg? because certain politicians and activists are willing to exploit children to promote their cause?
- triceratops 6y ago
  Why did the adults fail? Arguably because they weren't taught any better when they were children themselves.
Chris2048 6y ago
Civics I get, but how the hell will history help?
- BrianOnHN 6y ago

ip26 6y ago

Yeah, there are a limited set of options. * school * apprenticeship * one parent (with near certainty the mother) must stay home * large extended families i.e. grandma raises the kids All but school are incomplete. A five year old can’t apprentice. Many people aren’t blessed with grandparents close by who can raise kids. Stay at home parenting works for some, but not single parents- and many women want to work. I get the feeling many “school is just daycare!” critics quietly prefer women pick between kids & career- though I could be wrong. It’s also important to consider that, for most of human history, a child who is with their parents 24/7/365 is an anomaly. Kids need socializing with other people, and parents need a break. The same way spouses in a healthy relationship need time apart.

monoideism 6y ago
> for most of human history, a child who is with their parents 24/7/365 is an anomaly Where do you get this idea? It's actually the opposite. Modern universal schooling is an aberration that only took hold in the 1800s, with some schooling for the upper classes before that. For most of recorded history, children helped their parents around the house and field, with some going off to an apprenticeship around 12-14.
- ip26 6y ago
  Modern schooling is obviously new, but in tribal communities the world over, children are watched over by many adults over the course of the day. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/It_takes_a_village https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/It_takes_a_village As for recorded history, kids had a lot more unstructured time to themselves even fifty years ago to play in the mud or run about the neighborhood.
  - lotsofpulp 6y ago
    From what I can tell, the change comes with motor vehicles, when people have to start monitoring the kids' every moment. Before motor vehicles arrive, you just set them out to play and other adults/older children take care of them. After motor vehicles, there's a lot more risk to just letting them roam, and now you have to arrange an area where they can play and since there isn't a lot of people milling about outside that can watch them, the parents and other immediate family members shoulder more of the load.

triceratops 6y ago

Pay teachers much more money. Make it easier to fire them for underperformance. Provide better support systems for poorer families - childcare, healthcare, food security, physical safety, and so on. Children from poorer, stressed-out families tend do worse in school.