5 ms·

Bitcoin's market cap crosses $1T milestone for the first time

38 points by chanfest22 6y ago

seibelj 6y ago
Bitcoin is one of the most successful open source technologies of all time and the best decentralized network ever created, surpassing BitTorrent. This is a stunning achievement of pure computer science and economic game theory that enables strangers to act only in their self interest to secure and grow the network. No matter what you think of bitcoin, you must admit this has been successful beyond anyone’s wildest expectations only 12 short years ago. It’s rise and acceptance into the deepest reaches of traditional finance and conservative institutions like BNY Mellon is absurd in its speed and their willingness to accept fundamental change. We are in the midst of a paradigm shift to open financial protocols and huge innovation in capital markets. On to the next decade of crypto!
- hahahahe 6y ago
  I don’t think it does any of the things you mentioned. It’s a vehicle for speculations and money laundering.
  - DamnYuppie 6y ago
    So is every investment vehicle ever.
  - CryptoPunk 6y ago
    >>money laundering It gives people locked out of the global financial system by the warrantless financial mass-surveillance regime, aka the global AML regime, a lifeline: https://www.coindesk.com/money-reimagined-ugly-side-kyc-aml-obsession https://www.coindesk.com/money-reimagined-ugly-side-kyc-aml-... >>At a 2015 blockchain event, Nairobi-based bitcoin pioneer Elizabeth Rossiello answered an audience question about the impact on Somalians of a recent shutdown in remittance inflows after the U.S. government had labeled the country a “high-risk jurisdiction.” The AZA Group CEO’s answer was blunt: “They starve.” Remember, under financial-mass-surveillance (AML) laws, you're guilty until proven innocent, and your nationality and residency can be considered as proof of guilt.
- cosmodisk 6y ago
  I don't see anything successful about it: 1) Absurd levels of electricity consumed 2) Majority of BTC is not used as an asset,or even as currency,but purely as a tool for speculation 3) the surrounding ecosystem is worse than FX world, which is already as bad as it gets 4) No real anonymity either: any meaningful amount needs to be exchanged to Fiat sooner or later. 5) Adoption is still very very low and won't change with such volatility. Also, financial protocols!= currency.
  - gowld 6y ago
    "it's harmful" and."I don't like it" doesn't make it unsucessful. Cigarettes are wildly successful. Thousands of people, from uninteresting individuals to billionaires and banks, are spending their resources to engage with it.
    - cosmodisk 6y ago
      Define success. Are cigarettes successful for their manufacturers? Yes, absolutely,they are swimming in money. Is it a success to other stakeholders? No, it's not. Bitcoin is a huge success to the speculators riding the wave or early adopters who held it long enough. If smaller groups benefit from it, that doesn't necessarily mean it is universally successful.
      - wanderingstan 6y ago
        This is like arguing the iPhone was not a "success" because walled garden appstores are bad, or because app addiction is bad. Either of those may be true, but the iPhone was still a sucess. Bitcoin was a daring experiment in game theory, open-source protocol, and human incentives, and is a success by any common-sense measures: - Adoption of the protocol - Money devoted to protol - Human attention given to the project - Number of computers running it's code
      - yortpyperty 6y ago
        I don't see anything successful about this comment.
- ADifferentKyle 6y ago
  It’s been successful in obtaining usage, but I am still confused how it accomplished this beyond a bunch of people asking for it. What problems does Bitcoin solve for these traditional finance institutions that could give us a better barometer of its success?
  - SwimSwimHungry 6y ago
    You'll never get a straight answer. Cryptocurrency fans love huffing their own farts too much to actually give a salient explanation for this. Proof of work does a good job contributing to increasing problems with global warming and wreaking havoc on the computer hardware market. There's talk about major cryptocurrencies switching to proof of stake. Good luck on that, because the current powers that be would hate to see their cash cow affected. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. A bunch of early adopters are getting VERY rich because everyone else is FOMOing hardcore. That's never a good reason to buy into this charade. Our species is so greedy, we will do whatever it takes to fuck everyone else and get ours, I guess. We created a monster. I wish we could own up to it before it's too late.
hahahahe 6y ago
Think more interesting number would be total paid-in capital. That would be a better metric to gauge the baseline value. My guess is it’s closer to $10-20B.
- anm89 6y ago
  https://bitcointreasuries.org/ https://bitcointreasuries.org/ indicates that $51,841,521,637 has been paid in just over the last few years and that's just a few companies. Your figure is off by an order of magnitude. Greyscale alone has purchased more than that amount.
- nwah1 6y ago
  Exactly. Spot price and "market cap" are meaningless for something with purely speculative value. The relevant figure is total paid-in, minus total withdrawn, to be more precise. And probably we can't know, given that entities like Tether refuse to show their books.
  - jccodez 6y ago
    i only use it to buy weed.
andyxor 6y ago
Satoshi Nakamoto is the richest person in the world
naveen99 6y ago
That’s about 0.2% of global wealth allocation. I wonder when the people who normally recommend 30% of your portfolio in bonds will recommend bitcoin as the cash equivalent. That would leave a 150x potential from here.
- zaphod12 6y ago
  Cash is held for it's stability. bitcoin is the polar opposite of stability right now.
  - option 6y ago
    I guess you lived mostly in US and/or Western Europe. Ask people from former USSR or many countries in Africa about cash stability.
Aliabid94 6y ago
Whenever a BTC article makes it on HN, I see a flood of negative comments on how it's a bubble, just for speculation, etc. Can someone provide a solid bull case for BTC?
- yortpyperty 6y ago
  How about no bull case is not a bear case because it doesn't fit any prior bear bull dichotomy. Choose your own adventure. Some people choose bitcoin. Simple.
- ozmbie 6y ago
  My bull case is this: over the next few decades, cryptocurrency will find its use case. Even if it’s just another asset class like Gold or Silver that some people and institutions put their money in as part of diversifying investments. That alone is a huge global market and it’s barely started. I think a best case scenario is something like the Lightning Network grows in scale and popularity and becomes a defacto standard for online and mobile purchases.
  - CryptoPunk 6y ago
    The Lightning Network has no chance of gaining mass-adoption. It has high start up and capital lock-up costs, proportional to on-chain transaction fees, which only grow as Bitcoin/LN adoption ramps up. It has high upkeep costs, requiring you to have your LN node online to receive payments, and for your node to have access to the LN funds via a connection to the private keys, which is a security liability. To monitor for fraudulent channel closes in order to be able to react in time to challenge them, it also requires you to have an always on-line node, or a trusted third party delegated to do that on your behalf. And if you want rapid/automated reaction to fraudulent channel closes, that node needs to have access to the private keys to your LN funds. Then there are routing issues when the topography of the network changes with every transaction, and where the existence of routes is dependent on sufficient capital being locked up in channels. There's a reason why there's 100 times more BTC locked up for use in Ethereum dApps than for use in the LN. Ethereum-based scalability solutions could, ironically, provide BTC with the scalability needed to gain mass-adoption as an instrument for peer-to-peer payments.
throw_this_one 6y ago
Bitcoin working properly = tool to lock in your value with a limited and deflationary currency. Each individual is incentivized to do this (as early as possible). Society as a whole is not, because it will create inefficiencies. Governments are not, because it takes away their economic levers. Idk where this will go, but I will ride the bubble/pyramid.

38 points by chanfest22 6y ago

Bitcoin is one of the most successful open source technologies of all time and the best decentralized network ever created, surpassing BitTorrent. This is a stunning achievement of pure computer science and economic game theory that enables strangers to act only in their self interest to secure and grow the network. No matter what you think of bitcoin, you must admit this has been successful beyond anyone’s wildest expectations only 12 short years ago. It’s rise and acceptance into the deepest reaches of traditional finance and conservative institutions like BNY Mellon is absurd in its speed and their willingness to accept fundamental change. We are in the midst of a paradigm shift to open financial protocols and huge innovation in capital markets. On to the next decade of crypto!

hahahahe 6y ago
I don’t think it does any of the things you mentioned. It’s a vehicle for speculations and money laundering.
- DamnYuppie 6y ago
  So is every investment vehicle ever.
- CryptoPunk 6y ago
  >>money laundering It gives people locked out of the global financial system by the warrantless financial mass-surveillance regime, aka the global AML regime, a lifeline: https://www.coindesk.com/money-reimagined-ugly-side-kyc-aml-obsession https://www.coindesk.com/money-reimagined-ugly-side-kyc-aml-... >>At a 2015 blockchain event, Nairobi-based bitcoin pioneer Elizabeth Rossiello answered an audience question about the impact on Somalians of a recent shutdown in remittance inflows after the U.S. government had labeled the country a “high-risk jurisdiction.” The AZA Group CEO’s answer was blunt: “They starve.” Remember, under financial-mass-surveillance (AML) laws, you're guilty until proven innocent, and your nationality and residency can be considered as proof of guilt.
cosmodisk 6y ago
I don't see anything successful about it: 1) Absurd levels of electricity consumed 2) Majority of BTC is not used as an asset,or even as currency,but purely as a tool for speculation 3) the surrounding ecosystem is worse than FX world, which is already as bad as it gets 4) No real anonymity either: any meaningful amount needs to be exchanged to Fiat sooner or later. 5) Adoption is still very very low and won't change with such volatility. Also, financial protocols!= currency.
- gowld 6y ago
  "it's harmful" and."I don't like it" doesn't make it unsucessful. Cigarettes are wildly successful. Thousands of people, from uninteresting individuals to billionaires and banks, are spending their resources to engage with it.
  - cosmodisk 6y ago
    Define success. Are cigarettes successful for their manufacturers? Yes, absolutely,they are swimming in money. Is it a success to other stakeholders? No, it's not. Bitcoin is a huge success to the speculators riding the wave or early adopters who held it long enough. If smaller groups benefit from it, that doesn't necessarily mean it is universally successful.
    - wanderingstan 6y ago
      This is like arguing the iPhone was not a "success" because walled garden appstores are bad, or because app addiction is bad. Either of those may be true, but the iPhone was still a sucess. Bitcoin was a daring experiment in game theory, open-source protocol, and human incentives, and is a success by any common-sense measures: - Adoption of the protocol - Money devoted to protol - Human attention given to the project - Number of computers running it's code
    - yortpyperty 6y ago
      I don't see anything successful about this comment.
ADifferentKyle 6y ago
It’s been successful in obtaining usage, but I am still confused how it accomplished this beyond a bunch of people asking for it. What problems does Bitcoin solve for these traditional finance institutions that could give us a better barometer of its success?
- SwimSwimHungry 6y ago
  You'll never get a straight answer. Cryptocurrency fans love huffing their own farts too much to actually give a salient explanation for this. Proof of work does a good job contributing to increasing problems with global warming and wreaking havoc on the computer hardware market. There's talk about major cryptocurrencies switching to proof of stake. Good luck on that, because the current powers that be would hate to see their cash cow affected. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. A bunch of early adopters are getting VERY rich because everyone else is FOMOing hardcore. That's never a good reason to buy into this charade. Our species is so greedy, we will do whatever it takes to fuck everyone else and get ours, I guess. We created a monster. I wish we could own up to it before it's too late.

hahahahe 6y ago

Think more interesting number would be total paid-in capital. That would be a better metric to gauge the baseline value. My guess is it’s closer to $10-20B.

anm89 6y ago
https://bitcointreasuries.org/ https://bitcointreasuries.org/ indicates that $51,841,521,637 has been paid in just over the last few years and that's just a few companies. Your figure is off by an order of magnitude. Greyscale alone has purchased more than that amount.
nwah1 6y ago
Exactly. Spot price and "market cap" are meaningless for something with purely speculative value. The relevant figure is total paid-in, minus total withdrawn, to be more precise. And probably we can't know, given that entities like Tether refuse to show their books.
- jccodez 6y ago
  i only use it to buy weed.

andyxor 6y ago

Satoshi Nakamoto is the richest person in the world

naveen99 6y ago

That’s about 0.2% of global wealth allocation. I wonder when the people who normally recommend 30% of your portfolio in bonds will recommend bitcoin as the cash equivalent. That would leave a 150x potential from here.

zaphod12 6y ago
Cash is held for it's stability. bitcoin is the polar opposite of stability right now.
- option 6y ago
  I guess you lived mostly in US and/or Western Europe. Ask people from former USSR or many countries in Africa about cash stability.

Aliabid94 6y ago

Whenever a BTC article makes it on HN, I see a flood of negative comments on how it's a bubble, just for speculation, etc. Can someone provide a solid bull case for BTC?

yortpyperty 6y ago
How about no bull case is not a bear case because it doesn't fit any prior bear bull dichotomy. Choose your own adventure. Some people choose bitcoin. Simple.
ozmbie 6y ago
My bull case is this: over the next few decades, cryptocurrency will find its use case. Even if it’s just another asset class like Gold or Silver that some people and institutions put their money in as part of diversifying investments. That alone is a huge global market and it’s barely started. I think a best case scenario is something like the Lightning Network grows in scale and popularity and becomes a defacto standard for online and mobile purchases.
- CryptoPunk 6y ago
  The Lightning Network has no chance of gaining mass-adoption. It has high start up and capital lock-up costs, proportional to on-chain transaction fees, which only grow as Bitcoin/LN adoption ramps up. It has high upkeep costs, requiring you to have your LN node online to receive payments, and for your node to have access to the LN funds via a connection to the private keys, which is a security liability. To monitor for fraudulent channel closes in order to be able to react in time to challenge them, it also requires you to have an always on-line node, or a trusted third party delegated to do that on your behalf. And if you want rapid/automated reaction to fraudulent channel closes, that node needs to have access to the private keys to your LN funds. Then there are routing issues when the topography of the network changes with every transaction, and where the existence of routes is dependent on sufficient capital being locked up in channels. There's a reason why there's 100 times more BTC locked up for use in Ethereum dApps than for use in the LN. Ethereum-based scalability solutions could, ironically, provide BTC with the scalability needed to gain mass-adoption as an instrument for peer-to-peer payments.

throw_this_one 6y ago

Bitcoin working properly = tool to lock in your value with a limited and deflationary currency. Each individual is incentivized to do this (as early as possible). Society as a whole is not, because it will create inefficiencies. Governments are not, because it takes away their economic levers. Idk where this will go, but I will ride the bubble/pyramid.