17 ms·
How a 3 week business trip to the US got reduced to 3 hours
- evangineer 15y agoYeouch, a lesson to any non-American who gets a paying gig in the USA! Make sure everything is in order before you get on the plane to the States.
- canadiancreed 15y agoAs someone that goes to the states often, and have been looking for telecommuting work, that puts a big fly in the oitment.
- DeanCollinsLCC 15y agofor those of you thinking of applying for a greencard to work in the USA please google "Heart Taxation Act" first. it was introduced 4 months AFTER my greencard was approved..... I'm planning on departing the USA for good on Dec 2015 because of it.
- jamiebri 15y agoThat's enough time to get citizenship. The argument is probably "If you are going to stay, get involved, make a commitment. If you don't think its worth that, then by all means leave."
- mahyarm 15y agoThe US is the only country in the world that does this. Tax it's citizens even if they don't live there for years and own no property in it's borders, or people who have lived there. It's the big wrench in me wanting to get a green card in the USA unfortunately. The HEART act is also very ironic, since it is basically taxation without representation, one of the founding reasons of America.
- jleyank 15y agoUnless you live in a country with lower tax rates than the US, the annual cost of such taxation is paper, toner and postage. The advantage is that you can enter/leave without having to resolve your holdings with the IRS (at least as a citizen, no idea whether this applies to green card holders).
- jleyank 15y agoThis seems vaguely similar to what people leaving Canada for tax purposes - they're assumed to logically sell all of their goods that year so as to pay tax on the gain/loss. The US taxes citizens all the time, which has an advantage in this case. Doesn't cost $$, merely requires extra forms and filings. Renouncing citizenship, to first order, sounds like leaving Canada.
- sero 15y agoCan someone explain how this is enforceable if a citizen renounces citizenship while they are abroad? Would that be similar to renouncing citizenship while you owe taxes (I'm not really sure what would happen in that case either)?
- mikeryan 15y agoI'm not an expert by any means, I'm not even an amateur, but to my untrained eye it seems like allowing "self-employed independent trainer" would be a fairly large potential loophole for abuse in a visa program?
- furyg3 15y agoNot really, it would very much depend on the length of stay. Someone requesting a visa to teach a course for a few weeks is perfectly reasonable, especially if they are coming from a country with reduced requirements (visa wavier countries) like the EU.
- Nrsolis 15y agoConsider the fact that the only real enforcement of immigration laws happens at the borders here. Once you're in the country, people have (and still) overstay their visas for years at a time. It's very common and one of the most abused rules here. It's so abused that there was literally an effort (to amend our Constitution) to deny citizenship to children born here from parents who were in the country illegally. Skilled/unskilled migration/employment is a touchy topic here because many citizens feel like corporations and immigrants conspire to avoid the US employment laws. I'm not saying it's right; that's just how things are here. I used to work in London and did so via a student work exchange program. The visa/permit was limited to 6 months and I had to leave at the end, which I did. You may not agree with the laws of the country that you are heading to but you really cant fault them for enforcement. Given that a staggering amount of business is done with the US by foreign visitors it can't be /that/ much of a hassle.
- patio11 15y agoThis was somewhat surprising to me, but appears that he was accurately quoted the law. If you go through the flowchart on the State Department's website for the Visa Waiver Program, which would be my #1 suggestion for someone coming from the Netherlands, For the purpose of the Visa Waiver Program, "business" generally refers to business activities other than the performance of skilled or unskilled labor. Examples of activities that are allowed include: engaging in international commercial transactions, which do not involve gainful employment in the United States (such as a merchant who takes orders in the U.S. for goods manufactured abroad, or who travels to the U.S. to purchase American-made goods for export from the U.S.); negotiating contracts; consulting with business associates; and participating in scientific, educational, professional or business conventions, conferences, or seminars. The performance of any skilled or unskilled labor - even if it is unpaid - is most always prohibited. This includes performing work in the U.S. as a trainer or consultant. Activities allowed on the VWP parallel those activities allowed with a standard "B1" category business visa. Please see our B visa information page for more details. Working visas are, as stated, not exactly trivial to get. (And if you're already at the airport it is too late.)
- WildUtah 15y agoI continue to be astonished that anyone still comes to the USA without either a specific rule allowing his activity (e.g. tourism, negotiating contracts) or a consultation with a US immigration lawyer. Aren't there enough horror stories? Isn't the craziness well known abroad? In most of the world people who want to be tourists in the USA dread the extensive and humiliating application interview, questionnaire, and documentation process just to get a visa. The same is required to change planes at a US airport. The process is byzantine and irrational. Read all the available documents and hire a lawyer if anything seems uncertain. The border authorities routinely retain old documents, especially those submitted in error, and use them in a Kafkaesque process to deny all future permissions. Every thing you say or send to the government can be reinterpreted and used against you forever. It would be best to consult a lawyer every time you interact with CBP, though that would be expensive.
- akkartik 15y ago
- bitless 15y agosomeone remind me, why employment is at all restricted between first world countries?
- pmcginn 15y agoWhy do you think a brilliant European should be allowed to work in America but not a brilliant African? Or did you simply mean that rich, educated people should be given international mobility while poor, uneducated people should be content to rot where they were born?
- ojilles 15y agoI think you're reading too much into the parent.
- sixtofour 15y agoI think he meant that infrastructure between first world countries is more or less integrated, and citizens are easily tracked and observable, so it should be theoretically easy and safe to have their mutual borders more or less open. Or something like that.
- tomjen3 15y agoHe didn't mention the poor, he mentioned people from the first world -- he may know the answer for people from a poor country, even if he does not agree with it.
- swileran 15y agoSo unfortunate we don't see that non-american minds want to positively contribute to American society.
- axefrog 15y agoAny economics experts around? What would hypothetically happen if all countries lifted all immigration laws and allowed people to come and go wherever they liked?
- olalonde 15y agoPretty much all economists will agree that it would be a good thing. Unfortunately, laws are dictated by politics, not economics. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_trade http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_trade and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protectionism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protectionism
- theoj 15y agoAh, free trade. Pretty much all economists agree that the economic pie will get larger, but they are silent about how the pie will be split. Therein lies the problem. Most economists will trumpet the increase in societal or collective well-being but will not give you a straight answer about who accrues the gains, who accrues the losses, and what amends -- if any -- should be made towards the economic losers to encourage them to support the proposed schemes. When asked about these matters, most economists claim that these are outside their science. They are then surprised that their science is less than relevant and that people refuse to go along with their plans. EDIT: If you disagree with my assessment please explain your reasons instead of downvoting. EDIT: Added the second paragraph for clarification.
- oscardelben 15y agoCan you elaborate into how that could be a problem?
- theoj 15y agoMost economists will trumpet the increase in societal or collective well-being but will never give you a straight answer about who accrues the gains, who accrues the losses, and what amends -- if any -- should be made towards the economic losers to encourage them to support the proposed schemes. When asked about these matters, most economists claim that these are outside their science. Then they are surprised that people refuse to go along with their plans for maximizing societal well-being.
- baudehlo 15y agoI learned years ago doing conference talks that even if you're giving a tutorial, when asked at the border what you are doing there you simply say: "Attending a conference". NEVER give more details (except what the conference is about, which they will ask).
- furyg3 15y agoI'm bit shocked that the Dutch American Friendship Treaty (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DAFT_(treaty) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DAFT_(treaty)) doesn't apply in reverse... The treaty allows Americans like myself to start a business in Holland easily and get around the notoriously-bureaucratic Dutch immigration department. I always assumed it worked the other way around, but apparently the 'friendship' is unidirectional...
- smutticus 15y agoThis guy just showed up at the border without doing his research first. Try doing the same in the NL and you will also have problems. You can't legally work in the NL without a Tewerkstellingsvergunning if you are not from the EEA. The Dutch American Friendship Treaty simply allows you to easily acquire a TWK without too much hassle. FWIW the Dutch American Friendship Treaty is awesome. I've met numerous people from piercers to coders who use it to live and work in the NL.
- hiroprot 15y agoThe thing's called DAFT? :) Love it!
- olalonde 15y agoThough experiment: let's say he lied to the customs, what are the odds of him getting caught?
- clistctrl 15y agoWhats the worst that will happen? They're already sending him home.
- rglullis 15y agoIt could be worse. If he is caught lying (not that it is easy, see my comment above), he can be denied entrance to the US for 5-10 years.
- taken11 15y agoBeing denied entry is enough to be excluded from the Visa Weaver program. He needs to get at a minimum a 6 month multiple entry tourist visa in order to enter the U.S. now. They will still take him for extra questioning each time he enters. It will take hours each time.
- rglullis 15y agoNone. Considering his stay was indeed to be 3 weeks, if he lied (saying that he was entering as a tourist), he would get in and be given a 3-6 month stay period. And after you are in, US customs do not have any way to see what you've actually done.
- bhickey 15y agoSomething similar happened to a co-worker of mine. The company maintains offices in New York and Boston, with significant expansion at the Boston office. The powers that be decided it would be a good idea to have another experienced dev in Boston to help get the newer guys up to speed. They consulted with immigration attorneys and made sure all their ducks were in a row for a three month rotation through the US. My unfortunate co-worker showed up at the border and presented his UK passport, with a place of birth located somewhere in central Africa. The border guard decided that he planned to overstay his visa and denied him entry. He was then given the choice of arrest or deportation. This is really not a good way to endear the US to foreign business interests.
- rubbisho 15y agoI went to the US many times in 2009-2010 on VWP. I was working as a software dev with one of the largest companies in the world and wanted to hang out in the US to see a girl I liked. I used to go 3 months at a time, sometimes one month, rent an apartment, work in the company's offices downtown. I straight up said I was there to see a girl and "telecommute" in the office with my colleagues back home. Never had a problem.
- petercooper 15y agoEven "telecommuting", assuming it's normal "work" and not just meetings or chat, is not technically allowed under a normal VWP. But.. it happens a lot anyway.
- 46Bit 15y agoDoes that mean that going for a vacation and writing part of a book during it is probably not allowed under visa waiver? Fail...
- papercruncher 15y agoA lot of immigration proceedings depends solely on the mood of the officer. Consider yourself lucky, I can assure you that telecommuting is a violation of the VWP terms (you are producing work while staying in the US)
- ghshephard 15y agoI can report that some elements of the US Immigration/Visa system have gotten much smoother in the last 15 years. In particular, coming from Canada to work at Netscape in 1996, I was turned back the first time, and the third time, because the inspector did not like my paperwork (The first time, kind of made sense - it wasn't particularly well prepared. The third time, though, had been prepared by a law firm. The inspector indicated that my Diploma wasn't clearly from a University Level organization. They were the only inspector in 12 years to ever make that comment and refuse entry on that basis) For a while, in 2000-2002, they were kind of snarky when they had seen that I'd come in multiple times on a "Temporary Visa", though perhaps that was just to remind me that my trip to the US was, indeed, temporary. Eventually, after 5 or 6 minutes of grilling, the would grant me a multiple-entry TN Visa. Since 2008/2009, though, the process has been streamlined to a single letter with a single diploma, (literally) five-seven minutes waiting in their waiting area at the airport, and one minute at the counter, $50 Payment, and I'm good for another 3 years. If I want to, I can even apply by mail. So - properly accredited Canadians (2 Year Diploma+, letter from an employer properly formatted) who want to work in the United States as Computer Systems Analysts, have a system that's as streamlined as you can get it, without having completely open borders.
- joelhaasnoot 15y agoI did a 6 month internship in the US (with a Visa) and arrived at Philadelphia airport without the letter from my internship place detailing what I was going to do: the US Embassy in The Netherlands had it, I only had one copy of said letter. After explaining my story, what I was going to do where, how long I was to stay, which loophole I exploited (volunteers for religious non-profits get a B1 visa), who was going to pay (my parents) and what their occupations were, and that the non-profit was not paying me in any way I was free to go. Easy if you ask me: that could've been quite a struggle to get myself out of that one.
- jperras 15y agoAs someone who travels to the United States from Canada on a very regular basis, this does not surprise me at all. The first mistake he made was to say that he was "self-employed". That one little phrase, from my experience, sets off a very large red flag and almost always ends with being secondary'ed and very likely a complete entry denial. Generally, every question that the CBP agent will ask revolves around money: who pays your salary, in what currency, are you attempting to get in to the USA to find a job, will someone be giving you money for whatever reason (e.g. honorarium for giving a talk at a conference), etc. Additionally, trying to explain the concept of telecommuting to an agent is usually a lost cause. Canadians do have a slightly easier time getting in & out of the United States, but only marginally.
- jrockway 15y agoSeems like the solution is to be paid to prepare the course (in your own country), and then come to the US and give the course for free. How do conferences like OSCON deal with paying the speakers they fly in from other countries?
- baudehlo 15y agoThey give them a USD cheque after they've given the tutorial. You're expected to sort your own issues out with regard to getting there and giving the talk - it's not their problem. Hence why I say: just say you're attending a conference. * disclaimer: I've given tutorials at OSCon several times
- nandemo 15y agoHe could get a visitor visa, which can be used for tourism and business. Even if you're from a Third World country, it's not that hard to get it. Then the US entity would pay his company in Netherlands, and he would get paid in Netherlands from the Dutch company. The situation is the same as if you're a manager from a foreign company having a business meeting in US.
- alanh 15y agoThe domain name is quite apt for this post. (The trip turned out to be a no-op. http://www.jargon.net/jargonfile/n/no-op.html http://www.jargon.net/jargonfile/n/no-op.html)
- Lucadg 15y agoSome countries still think they are the centre of the world and that people would do anything to get there (like applying for a bloody business visa for a conference). It's not like that anymore, wake up. The world is full of opportunities in more open countries and business people are like web users: id the usability is low, they simply go elsewhere.
- shadowfox 15y ago> The world is full of opportunities in more open countries and business people are like web users: id the usability is low, they simply go elsewhere. Possibly true. But until this trend has a noticeable effect on their economies, countries don't have an incentive to change their policies.
- Lucadg 15y agoThey have the incentive but they probably fail to recognize this as a threat. Usually until it's too late. We have seen this over and over in history and it may even be positive as it provides a chance for power shifts.