3 ms·

Location pay reduction is fair to the rich. Simply put, our "chains" are designed in such a way for us to stay in them as long and possibly - contributing to so

Location pay reduction is fair to the rich. Simply put, our "chains" are designed in such a way for us to stay in them as long and possibly - contributing to society, whatever that word could mean. Basically, with the current state of property prices and overall prices, the UK average is struggling equally as a person from Eastern Europe - as someone said: "majority is one month salary far from bankrupt". What I am trying to say is real income is what is left after your expenses. Our system is profit-centric, and most of the profits go similar to snowballs, always to the bigger ones. In our world those big ones have additional supper power, they can change rules so that they can become even bigger...

yerwhat01010 6y ago
> the UK average is struggling equally as a person from Eastern Europe This can't possibly be true, or the UK wouldn't be full of Eastern Europeans who migrated to Britain for its economic opportunities.
- throwewey 6y ago
  No, it can't be true, I believe many in Eastern Europe actually have it much better than their UK counterparts. At least if you're in Engineering, Tech etc. I'm talking about the ability to afford a house on an engineer's salary, which is simply not doable in the UK.
  - yerwhat01010 6y ago
    I'm a mid-level engineer in the UK and I can afford a house on my salary.
    - NiceWayToDoIT 6y ago
      Where in UK are we talking about London where all good things happen or Sheffield ? And what is your salary ... By the way, when we say "afford", I mean be comfortable, that if you lose your job you will not lose your home because you cannot pay 2 payments, and therefore lose your deposit and everything you have payed in until that point. Buying home in UK is life under constant stress of "what if" and pandemic, Brexit and current economy have not done a good job of removing that fear...
      - yerwhat01010 6y ago
        I live in London, in a mid-range area of London in terms of property prices. My wife's income is very close to my own, and we don't have kids. We currently rent, but we've put some serious thought into buying, including talking to banks about how much we could conceivably borrow for a mortgage given our current income, credit histories (which are good but not superb), etc.. We've been saving seriously for the last 2 to 3 years and we concluded that if we save for another 1 to 2 years we can very realistically afford to buy in London. But we probably won't, because money goes so much further outside of London that it doesn't seem worth the extra expense. I suppose it was a little disingenuous of me to say that "I" can afford to buy when I'm taking my wife's income to consideration too, but then I imagine most people who have reached the point in life where they're thinking about buying a home are thinking of doing it with a significant other. > be comfortable, if you lose your job you will not lose your home because you cannot pay 2 payments In what country is it not the case that you'll get evicted for failing to pay your mortgage on time? Also, won't you also get evicted for failing to pay rent?
        NiceWayToDoIT 6y ago
        As you said, those are two incomes, not one, and in this economy and state of things all I can say good luck. Again, maybe thing is about being brave and just jump in without thinking about possible issues that may never happen... Regarding eviction, I meant more, that you will be able to have some savings to bridge gap between two jobs or if it gets to unforeseen illness or event. Like what happens if you both lose jobs, or you need take care about your spouse ... (I hope that never happens). But, my only point was that system is adjusted so you are always on the edge (regardless where you are), so you always turning that economic wheel ... I have few mates they have miscalculated amount they can borrow, forgot to include other expenses, service charges etc. now they really struggling as mortgage is eating most of their salary, they have very little room for any maneuver.
        sokoloff 6y ago
        The system is adjusted not by nefarious, moustache-twirling bastards, but by the actions of other people buying goods and services, including housing, up to the point where they believe their outcomes are optimized. If lots of people want to live in a particular area because they think it will help them live better, that area will have more people jockeying/bidding to live there. Since everyone wants food with their meals, food will get bid up. If vacations to a beach are enjoyable people will vie for them (and suppliers emerge to cater to that). The treadmill effect is caused because other people are running their own lives on their own treadmills, resulting in a system outcome. That is part of what gives rise to the FIRE movement among people with some freedom to choose to live on less than their max (not everyone can, and certainly not to the same degree). If you adjust the hedonic consumption treadmill to run more slowly than you are running, you can literally get ahead. I’m not choosing it, instead choosing the expensive mortgage and longer worker career, but I can see why it appeals to some.
    - oreally 6y ago
      Define 'afford'. Surely you'd have to save that salary for some time? How long is that period?
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
  - NiceWayToDoIT 6y ago
    True, even during pandemic prices of properties have gone 20-30% up, even with salary of £100K (£5.5K a month NET) which is above average for majority of developers, it is difficult to afford property in London. And if you move outside, then you need to include traveling fees which are additional +(200-400) and lose of time each day about 2-4 hours (of course depending on location)
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - Nursie 6y ago
      The need to be in London is slowly, softly, changing. "London Money" has been good for a long time, but it's not just about location. It's a vortex effect that makes "London" a shorthand for "talented, productive and driven". If you're talented, productive and driven, you move to London where you can make more money (and work on more cutting-edge stuff). If you want those people, you set up in London and pay London Money to hire them. It's not that you earn less in small-town Hampshire just because it's small-town Hampshire. The pool of talent there excludes the people who went to London to chase the big time. You pay small-town Hampshire money, you get small-town Hampshire people. And believe me, after nearly 20 years in UK software, those folks aren't great. Some are competent, but stuck in a technical rut. Others are just poor at what they do. This effect has been writ large in inter-country business - an Indian colleague told me a while ago that her opinion on why outsourcing was such a mess was that the best people leave for the US. The second tier leave for Europe or Canada. Who does that leave to work for outsourcing firms? If the geographical vortex effect falls due to a change in working practices, companies are still going to need to pay to get good people. Banks like JPMC and Starling know this - their offices outside London pay near-as-dammit London salaries because they want talented, productive and driven employees and if you want to attract them, you need to pay.
      - NiceWayToDoIT 6y ago
        Issue is that really all in UK is in London, no offence to other towns, simply: museums, clubs, meetups, tech conferences, startups, theatre shows, multicultural vibe, amount of things you can do ... (please ignore pandemic and current lock-down state) I have been in Manchester for a few days, and except for my friends and few exceptionally good food & club places town is simply unsatisfying (I do not know what word to use to describe maybe day time boring). For me I would rather take a StarLink and move to Scottish mountains ... Don't get me wrong, I do not hate rest of UK, there are different towns, and they are quite different, some are nice and pretty, other look like post-communistic havoc...
  - nicoburns 6y ago
    There are (nice) parts of the country where you can very easily. In Liverpool you can buy a 2 bedroom flat starting from £40k or a 5+ bedroom house for £200k. In London (and some other locations) pretty much nobody can afford a house, but that's a problem with house prices not wages.
    - yerwhat01010 6y ago
      > 5+ bedroom house for £200k This makes me want to move to Liverpool. £200k won't get you a shoebox one-bedroom flat in London.
  - shawabawa3 6y ago
    > I'm talking about the ability to afford a house on an engineer's salary, which is simply not doable in the UK. I don't understand how people can think this. Software engineering salaries is way above the median. Housing is difficult to afford for everyone right now, but definitely doable on even below median engineering salaries if you have a partner who works too If you can get a FAANG position in London that will pay £100k+
    - arvinsim 6y ago
      FAANG salaries are the exception, not the rule.
      - shawabawa3 6y ago
        yes, but even non-faang engineering salaries are way above most jobs
    - NiceWayToDoIT 6y ago
      The entire comment was about majority of people not just a handful of 70 million UK has. As my initial comment was, system is design in such way to keep you in constant state of work, not allowing you to be free... In Ukraine with average salary of $400 is equally difficult to afford home as in UK with salary of $3000, only difference is that from more expensive it is possible to find a way to reduce expenses (giving up comfort) and then move savings to a cheep/er place.
  - virgilp 6y ago
    AAAH. But, are you talking about the UK /EE average, or the UK/EE average software engineer? Those are two very different populations.... In EE, as a sw engineer, you will do much better than your UK counterparts if you compare your revenue to the population average. That comes with some perks (e.g. it's easier to afford services, like say, getting a babysitter) and with some downsides (the general society around you is "broken" to a greater extent; I feel that too many people take for granted what they have. E.g. having well heated homes is not a guarantee that magically happens; if the city infrastructure breaks down, you may have problems even if you're otherwise rich). Getting a house is not everything; if fact, if you're from UK, it's probably quite easy to go to EE and get yourself a house there.... but you don't want that, do you? Because, actually living in London might have some advantages that you're overlooking, and maybe those are reflected into the housing prices, too.
- NiceWayToDoIT 6y ago
  It is not just economic situation that pushes people to migrate, socio-politic condition can be additional reason. This is savings wise in UK. > https://themoneycharity.org.uk/money-stats-almost-10m-with-no-savings/ https://themoneycharity.org.uk/money-stats-almost-10m-with-n... Another thing is that those who migrate are looking for more opportunities, and also in comparison they decide to live in worse condition as they can save more working jobs local people do not want to do. In that way when they go back they can live significantly longer with those savings. Person struggling to find job 500 EUR a month in Ukraine, (https://ukraineliving.com/the-truth-about-the-average-salary-in-ukraine/ https://ukraineliving.com/the-truth-about-the-average-salary...) can in UK live in share bunk bad room eating noodles for a year and save £10000 working construction industry. In London normal expenses rented 1 bed flat,food etc. will eat those saving in 3-4 month. Back in Ukraine same person can live out of those savings for 2 years.
- dnh44 6y ago
  Romania for example has a 96% home ownership rate meaning that lots of people don't have a monthly rent or mortgage payment. This takes quite a lot of stress out of life that is universal to people with both a low and a high income. However if that home is in a rural area where there aren't any jobs anymore that means you'll have to move to the city and rent an apartment. Because a normal rent is higher than a normal salary this can be problematic. So if you're in this situation then moving West somewhere is a much better option. My impression is that both your statement and OP's statement can be true at the same time.
- mantas 6y ago
  You'd be 100% correct a decade ago. Nowadays the difference is miniscule. Quite a few people are moving back because they can have better quality of life back home.

yerwhat01010 6y ago

> the UK average is struggling equally as a person from Eastern Europe This can't possibly be true, or the UK wouldn't be full of Eastern Europeans who migrated to Britain for its economic opportunities.

throwewey 6y ago
No, it can't be true, I believe many in Eastern Europe actually have it much better than their UK counterparts. At least if you're in Engineering, Tech etc. I'm talking about the ability to afford a house on an engineer's salary, which is simply not doable in the UK.
- yerwhat01010 6y ago
  I'm a mid-level engineer in the UK and I can afford a house on my salary.
  - NiceWayToDoIT 6y ago
    Where in UK are we talking about London where all good things happen or Sheffield ? And what is your salary ... By the way, when we say "afford", I mean be comfortable, that if you lose your job you will not lose your home because you cannot pay 2 payments, and therefore lose your deposit and everything you have payed in until that point. Buying home in UK is life under constant stress of "what if" and pandemic, Brexit and current economy have not done a good job of removing that fear...
    - yerwhat01010 6y ago
      I live in London, in a mid-range area of London in terms of property prices. My wife's income is very close to my own, and we don't have kids. We currently rent, but we've put some serious thought into buying, including talking to banks about how much we could conceivably borrow for a mortgage given our current income, credit histories (which are good but not superb), etc.. We've been saving seriously for the last 2 to 3 years and we concluded that if we save for another 1 to 2 years we can very realistically afford to buy in London. But we probably won't, because money goes so much further outside of London that it doesn't seem worth the extra expense. I suppose it was a little disingenuous of me to say that "I" can afford to buy when I'm taking my wife's income to consideration too, but then I imagine most people who have reached the point in life where they're thinking about buying a home are thinking of doing it with a significant other. > be comfortable, if you lose your job you will not lose your home because you cannot pay 2 payments In what country is it not the case that you'll get evicted for failing to pay your mortgage on time? Also, won't you also get evicted for failing to pay rent?
      - NiceWayToDoIT 6y ago
        As you said, those are two incomes, not one, and in this economy and state of things all I can say good luck. Again, maybe thing is about being brave and just jump in without thinking about possible issues that may never happen... Regarding eviction, I meant more, that you will be able to have some savings to bridge gap between two jobs or if it gets to unforeseen illness or event. Like what happens if you both lose jobs, or you need take care about your spouse ... (I hope that never happens). But, my only point was that system is adjusted so you are always on the edge (regardless where you are), so you always turning that economic wheel ... I have few mates they have miscalculated amount they can borrow, forgot to include other expenses, service charges etc. now they really struggling as mortgage is eating most of their salary, they have very little room for any maneuver.
        sokoloff 6y ago
        The system is adjusted not by nefarious, moustache-twirling bastards, but by the actions of other people buying goods and services, including housing, up to the point where they believe their outcomes are optimized. If lots of people want to live in a particular area because they think it will help them live better, that area will have more people jockeying/bidding to live there. Since everyone wants food with their meals, food will get bid up. If vacations to a beach are enjoyable people will vie for them (and suppliers emerge to cater to that). The treadmill effect is caused because other people are running their own lives on their own treadmills, resulting in a system outcome. That is part of what gives rise to the FIRE movement among people with some freedom to choose to live on less than their max (not everyone can, and certainly not to the same degree). If you adjust the hedonic consumption treadmill to run more slowly than you are running, you can literally get ahead. I’m not choosing it, instead choosing the expensive mortgage and longer worker career, but I can see why it appeals to some.
  - oreally 6y ago
    Define 'afford'. Surely you'd have to save that salary for some time? How long is that period?
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
- NiceWayToDoIT 6y ago
  True, even during pandemic prices of properties have gone 20-30% up, even with salary of £100K (£5.5K a month NET) which is above average for majority of developers, it is difficult to afford property in London. And if you move outside, then you need to include traveling fees which are additional +(200-400) and lose of time each day about 2-4 hours (of course depending on location)
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - Nursie 6y ago
    The need to be in London is slowly, softly, changing. "London Money" has been good for a long time, but it's not just about location. It's a vortex effect that makes "London" a shorthand for "talented, productive and driven". If you're talented, productive and driven, you move to London where you can make more money (and work on more cutting-edge stuff). If you want those people, you set up in London and pay London Money to hire them. It's not that you earn less in small-town Hampshire just because it's small-town Hampshire. The pool of talent there excludes the people who went to London to chase the big time. You pay small-town Hampshire money, you get small-town Hampshire people. And believe me, after nearly 20 years in UK software, those folks aren't great. Some are competent, but stuck in a technical rut. Others are just poor at what they do. This effect has been writ large in inter-country business - an Indian colleague told me a while ago that her opinion on why outsourcing was such a mess was that the best people leave for the US. The second tier leave for Europe or Canada. Who does that leave to work for outsourcing firms? If the geographical vortex effect falls due to a change in working practices, companies are still going to need to pay to get good people. Banks like JPMC and Starling know this - their offices outside London pay near-as-dammit London salaries because they want talented, productive and driven employees and if you want to attract them, you need to pay.
    - NiceWayToDoIT 6y ago
      Issue is that really all in UK is in London, no offence to other towns, simply: museums, clubs, meetups, tech conferences, startups, theatre shows, multicultural vibe, amount of things you can do ... (please ignore pandemic and current lock-down state) I have been in Manchester for a few days, and except for my friends and few exceptionally good food & club places town is simply unsatisfying (I do not know what word to use to describe maybe day time boring). For me I would rather take a StarLink and move to Scottish mountains ... Don't get me wrong, I do not hate rest of UK, there are different towns, and they are quite different, some are nice and pretty, other look like post-communistic havoc...
- nicoburns 6y ago
  There are (nice) parts of the country where you can very easily. In Liverpool you can buy a 2 bedroom flat starting from £40k or a 5+ bedroom house for £200k. In London (and some other locations) pretty much nobody can afford a house, but that's a problem with house prices not wages.
  - yerwhat01010 6y ago
    > 5+ bedroom house for £200k This makes me want to move to Liverpool. £200k won't get you a shoebox one-bedroom flat in London.
- shawabawa3 6y ago
  > I'm talking about the ability to afford a house on an engineer's salary, which is simply not doable in the UK. I don't understand how people can think this. Software engineering salaries is way above the median. Housing is difficult to afford for everyone right now, but definitely doable on even below median engineering salaries if you have a partner who works too If you can get a FAANG position in London that will pay £100k+
  - arvinsim 6y ago
    FAANG salaries are the exception, not the rule.
    - shawabawa3 6y ago
      yes, but even non-faang engineering salaries are way above most jobs
  - NiceWayToDoIT 6y ago
    The entire comment was about majority of people not just a handful of 70 million UK has. As my initial comment was, system is design in such way to keep you in constant state of work, not allowing you to be free... In Ukraine with average salary of $400 is equally difficult to afford home as in UK with salary of $3000, only difference is that from more expensive it is possible to find a way to reduce expenses (giving up comfort) and then move savings to a cheep/er place.
- virgilp 6y ago
  AAAH. But, are you talking about the UK /EE average, or the UK/EE average software engineer? Those are two very different populations.... In EE, as a sw engineer, you will do much better than your UK counterparts if you compare your revenue to the population average. That comes with some perks (e.g. it's easier to afford services, like say, getting a babysitter) and with some downsides (the general society around you is "broken" to a greater extent; I feel that too many people take for granted what they have. E.g. having well heated homes is not a guarantee that magically happens; if the city infrastructure breaks down, you may have problems even if you're otherwise rich). Getting a house is not everything; if fact, if you're from UK, it's probably quite easy to go to EE and get yourself a house there.... but you don't want that, do you? Because, actually living in London might have some advantages that you're overlooking, and maybe those are reflected into the housing prices, too.
NiceWayToDoIT 6y ago
It is not just economic situation that pushes people to migrate, socio-politic condition can be additional reason. This is savings wise in UK. > https://themoneycharity.org.uk/money-stats-almost-10m-with-no-savings/ https://themoneycharity.org.uk/money-stats-almost-10m-with-n... Another thing is that those who migrate are looking for more opportunities, and also in comparison they decide to live in worse condition as they can save more working jobs local people do not want to do. In that way when they go back they can live significantly longer with those savings. Person struggling to find job 500 EUR a month in Ukraine, (https://ukraineliving.com/the-truth-about-the-average-salary-in-ukraine/ https://ukraineliving.com/the-truth-about-the-average-salary...) can in UK live in share bunk bad room eating noodles for a year and save £10000 working construction industry. In London normal expenses rented 1 bed flat,food etc. will eat those saving in 3-4 month. Back in Ukraine same person can live out of those savings for 2 years.
dnh44 6y ago
Romania for example has a 96% home ownership rate meaning that lots of people don't have a monthly rent or mortgage payment. This takes quite a lot of stress out of life that is universal to people with both a low and a high income. However if that home is in a rural area where there aren't any jobs anymore that means you'll have to move to the city and rent an apartment. Because a normal rent is higher than a normal salary this can be problematic. So if you're in this situation then moving West somewhere is a much better option. My impression is that both your statement and OP's statement can be true at the same time.
mantas 6y ago
You'd be 100% correct a decade ago. Nowadays the difference is miniscule. Quite a few people are moving back because they can have better quality of life back home.