5 ms·

> skeuomorphism of gold mining I'm gonna steal that one, thanks. :D

emteycz 6y ago
Don't, it's not accurate at all. "Mining" in the context of Ethereum is what powers it, not some abstract useless calculations.
- ljm 6y ago
  Someone's out there digging ethereum out of the wall of a cave? Panning for it in a river delta? No? Then it's a calculation. Or an abstract and useless one in your terms.
  - emteycz 6y ago
    It's a calculation, but not a useless one done just to simulate gold mining, unlike Bitcoin. Look deeper into what Ethereum actually is, it's not just a cryptocoin, it's also a computing platform.
    - HDMI_Cable 6y ago
      > Look deeper into what Ethereum actually is, I don’t have an opinion on this but if you’re making a point, you should be the one providing evidence, not telling others to look it up.
      - emteycz 6y ago
        I'm sure everyone on this site is capable of opening Ethereum homepage by themselves.
        infogulch 6y ago
        Since we've gone meta anyways... Why do so few people value simply linking to and quoting directly from primary sources? From random internet comment #37846399, to sms chats, to user stories on a scrum board, and even news articles these days, nobody cares to drop a link to or actually quote the thing they're referring to. Docs, articles, code, journals... Yes, it's work to back up your claims with direct links to a source. But maybe that's a reasonable minimum bar to hurdle to stand behind ones statements.
        emteycz 6y ago
        I am not the first one who made a claim in this thread - your reply would be better placed under that comment talking about gold. Surely opening the homepage is reasonable minimum before posting a negative comment.
      - jawzz 6y ago
        They’re not really making a point that needs evidence. If you have no idea what Ethereum is, it’s not unreasonable to suggest that you take a quick look at their website before participating in an web forum discussion about it. This is different than people blithely spouting “it’s not my job to educate you” when asked to give some support for their controversial, unsubstantiated claim.
- infogulch 6y ago
  I agree that the analogy does not extend past the surface look, but that's the point of calling it a skeumorphism: a new thing that tries to perform the function of an old thing, under a facade that mimics the old thing in a shallow way to ease transitioning.
- leshow 6y ago
  AFAIK Ethereum is still proof of work, meaning miners are not doing useful calculations. Miners are not just running smart contracts.
  - short 6y ago
    this is correct, I think solidity doesn't even run on a gpu at all The energy usage of ethereum comes from the proof-of-work DAG, not the solidity execution. You can easily see this by running a (non mining) ethereum node, any decent CPU will churn through the transactions in blocks in a matter of milliseconds (~200 ms per block), not the 13 seconds it takes to generate that block
MereInterest 6y ago
That's putting it in the best possible light. Mining gold leaves the world with physical blocks of gold, which has no continuous upkeep cost. "Mining" cryptocurrency leaves the world with an asset that requires continual upkeep (further "mining") in order to maintain that asset. Any significant drop in the network's hashrate opens it up to attacks. The upkeep cost for Bitcoin is, and by necessity must be, proportional to the value represented by Bitcoin.
- tikwidd 6y ago
  But the upkeep cost of protecting the gold is continuous in the same way as bitcoin mining. If you want to own some gold you need to protect it (usually with the state apparatus of violence, which has massive externalities). In other words, if you just mine a physical gold block, you don't really have an asset without the state's (or your own) continual upkeep that keeps it protected from attacks.
  - 23iofj 6y ago
    > But the upkeep cost of protecting the gold is continuous in the same way as bitcoin mining. This completely misses the point, which was one of magnitude: >> The upkeep cost for Bitcoin is, and by necessity must be, PROPORTIOANAL TO THE VALUE REPRESENTED by Bitcoin. Also, that upkeep cost is 100.00% to protect the value of existing bitcoin. C.f., gold: > If you want to own some gold you need to protect it (usually with the state apparatus of violence, which has massive externalities). I don't need continuous mining of bitcoin to protect my non-bitcoin stuff. However, I do need the "state apparatus of violence" to protect my non-gold stuff, including things like my house and my body, and oh yeah, my fucking mining rig! If all gold disappeared tomorrow, would anything about the "state apparatus of violence" change? No, of course not. That is absurd.
    - ineedasername 6y ago
      I never understood the "violence" argument against government. In that sense of the word "violence", there is no alternative that does not at some level also come down to the threat of force. The "state apparatus of violence" won't look so bad after you've dismantled the state in favor of something approaching anarcho-capitalism and are then close to Hobbe's state of nature: nasty, british, and short.
ufmemo 6y ago
Already used it 5 times today in meetings

Don't, it's not accurate at all. "Mining" in the context of Ethereum is what powers it, not some abstract useless calculations.

ljm 6y ago
Someone's out there digging ethereum out of the wall of a cave? Panning for it in a river delta? No? Then it's a calculation. Or an abstract and useless one in your terms.
- emteycz 6y ago
  It's a calculation, but not a useless one done just to simulate gold mining, unlike Bitcoin. Look deeper into what Ethereum actually is, it's not just a cryptocoin, it's also a computing platform.
  - HDMI_Cable 6y ago
    > Look deeper into what Ethereum actually is, I don’t have an opinion on this but if you’re making a point, you should be the one providing evidence, not telling others to look it up.
    - emteycz 6y ago
      I'm sure everyone on this site is capable of opening Ethereum homepage by themselves.
      - infogulch 6y ago
        Since we've gone meta anyways... Why do so few people value simply linking to and quoting directly from primary sources? From random internet comment #37846399, to sms chats, to user stories on a scrum board, and even news articles these days, nobody cares to drop a link to or actually quote the thing they're referring to. Docs, articles, code, journals... Yes, it's work to back up your claims with direct links to a source. But maybe that's a reasonable minimum bar to hurdle to stand behind ones statements.
        emteycz 6y ago
        I am not the first one who made a claim in this thread - your reply would be better placed under that comment talking about gold. Surely opening the homepage is reasonable minimum before posting a negative comment.
    - jawzz 6y ago
      They’re not really making a point that needs evidence. If you have no idea what Ethereum is, it’s not unreasonable to suggest that you take a quick look at their website before participating in an web forum discussion about it. This is different than people blithely spouting “it’s not my job to educate you” when asked to give some support for their controversial, unsubstantiated claim.
infogulch 6y ago
I agree that the analogy does not extend past the surface look, but that's the point of calling it a skeumorphism: a new thing that tries to perform the function of an old thing, under a facade that mimics the old thing in a shallow way to ease transitioning.
leshow 6y ago
AFAIK Ethereum is still proof of work, meaning miners are not doing useful calculations. Miners are not just running smart contracts.
- short 6y ago
  this is correct, I think solidity doesn't even run on a gpu at all The energy usage of ethereum comes from the proof-of-work DAG, not the solidity execution. You can easily see this by running a (non mining) ethereum node, any decent CPU will churn through the transactions in blocks in a matter of milliseconds (~200 ms per block), not the 13 seconds it takes to generate that block

MereInterest 6y ago

That's putting it in the best possible light. Mining gold leaves the world with physical blocks of gold, which has no continuous upkeep cost. "Mining" cryptocurrency leaves the world with an asset that requires continual upkeep (further "mining") in order to maintain that asset. Any significant drop in the network's hashrate opens it up to attacks. The upkeep cost for Bitcoin is, and by necessity must be, proportional to the value represented by Bitcoin.

tikwidd 6y ago
But the upkeep cost of protecting the gold is continuous in the same way as bitcoin mining. If you want to own some gold you need to protect it (usually with the state apparatus of violence, which has massive externalities). In other words, if you just mine a physical gold block, you don't really have an asset without the state's (or your own) continual upkeep that keeps it protected from attacks.
- 23iofj 6y ago
  > But the upkeep cost of protecting the gold is continuous in the same way as bitcoin mining. This completely misses the point, which was one of magnitude: >> The upkeep cost for Bitcoin is, and by necessity must be, PROPORTIOANAL TO THE VALUE REPRESENTED by Bitcoin. Also, that upkeep cost is 100.00% to protect the value of existing bitcoin. C.f., gold: > If you want to own some gold you need to protect it (usually with the state apparatus of violence, which has massive externalities). I don't need continuous mining of bitcoin to protect my non-bitcoin stuff. However, I do need the "state apparatus of violence" to protect my non-gold stuff, including things like my house and my body, and oh yeah, my fucking mining rig! If all gold disappeared tomorrow, would anything about the "state apparatus of violence" change? No, of course not. That is absurd.
  - ineedasername 6y ago
    I never understood the "violence" argument against government. In that sense of the word "violence", there is no alternative that does not at some level also come down to the threat of force. The "state apparatus of violence" won't look so bad after you've dismantled the state in favor of something approaching anarcho-capitalism and are then close to Hobbe's state of nature: nasty, british, and short.

ufmemo 6y ago

Already used it 5 times today in meetings