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So I'm not alone. I really can't understand the appeal of a mechanical keyboard. - They are loud - They are expensive - The keys are massive and ugly - Mass

So I'm not alone. I really can't understand the appeal of a mechanical keyboard. - They are loud - They are expensive - The keys are massive and ugly - Massive travel time (So slow to type on) Sure they are a bit more customizable, but is that really worth all the drawbacks? Especially the worse typing, which is the main point of a keyboard. If you are a mechanical keyboard fanatic, and my comment angered you, please know that was not my intention. I really don't see the appeal, and I haven't been able to find any advantages (mentioned online or by asking friends that have them). I would love it if someone could explain to me what the actual advantages are, and/or why I am wrong on any of the points I mentioned.

schwartzworld 6y ago
I probably don't speak for everybody, but I can try to speak to your points above: - They are loud They can be loud, depending on the switches you get. However, some people feel that they benefit from it. The loud clicks are satisfying in some way. Maybe it's an ASMR thing for some people. For me, the sound feels like feedback. - They are expensive They can be. But so can regular keyboards. My first mechanical was like $40. - The keys are massive and ugly Unless you put low profile switches on your keyboard - Massive travel time (So slow to type on) Unless you put fast switches on your keyboard. The clickiest keys tend to be the slowest, but I don't type more than 80 words per minute anyway, and when I'm coding a lot less than that. But you can definitely get faster switches. Here's another reason: it's fun. It's just fun. Sure maybe it's just cosplaying as a hacker, but it's still fun. And most mechanicals can be remapped really easily, to allow custom workflows. Or layers. What I may potentially lose in words per minute, I gain by creating an intuitive key map that lets me reach the keys that I actually need day to day.
- mewse 6y ago
  > They can be loud, depending on the switches you get. It’s worth noting that for folks who don’t know proper typing technique (which is probably nearly everybody under the age of 40, as nobody really teaches it any more, at least in the countries where I’ve lived) it almost doesn’t matter what sort of mechanical switch you’re using, in terms of noise. In my experience, the majority of mechanical keyboard noise for most folks doesn’t actually come from the switches at all; it comes from the keys noisily bottoming out on each keystroke. My theory is that most folks these days learned to type on membrane keyboards where you have to bottom out the keys (often with quite a lot of force, if the keyboard is old), or else on a laptop’s scissor switches where you can’t avoid bottoming out due to the extremely short throw, and so everyone’s just typing with much more force than necessary and driving the keys all the way down to the backplate on every press because that’s what they had to do with the keyboards they learned on. Which of course makes typing far less pleasant, and also much noisier! The complaints are totally understandable, from that perspective. This also links into the “Massive travel time” comment; most folks push the keys much too far down while typing on mechanical keyboards! Cherry MX Blue switches (as one example) actuate at 2mm, which is almost exactly the same distance as most (non-Apple) laptop scissor switches. The only reason that a mechanical keyboard would have “massive travel time” compared to a laptop keyboard is if you’re needlessly pushing the keys all the way down, when you actually only need a gentle tap on them.
  - DennisP 6y ago
    That's the exact reason I use mechs. My finger joints started getting sore from typing, which was a career threat for me. I bought a collection of nice keyboards with Cherry browns and reds, and trained myself to type without bottoming out, and the problem went away. As a bonus, it turned out that typing that way was faster for me. For several years, sometimes I slacked off and just typed on my Mac keyboard, and fingers would start getting sore again so I'd switch back to the mechs. Now I've apparently healed up a bit and a modest amount of laptop typing doesn't bother me, but I still bring out the mechs for more substantial work.
  - lmilcin 6y ago
    It is difficult to unlearn once you learn it incorrectly. I have learned to touchtype about 80WPM in my teens, over 2 decades ago and I still have hard time not bottoming out or using right shift key. I have been successful in re-learning to use dvorak instead of qwerty and to type in a tempo (ie. with equal intervals, using metronome), but the bottoming dynamic is much more basic than that, I think.
  - cbm-vic-20 6y ago
    Agree. Older-than-40 here, I learned to type primarily on electric typewriters and old-school terminal keyboards, where the switches would trigger around half-way down the travel of the key. When I use a mechanical keyboard, I do the same- the Cherry MX Clear switches in my keyboard act in a similar way- you don't need to "bottom out" a switch for it to activate. Manual typewriters, though, had a /huge/ amount of travel, and since the travel provides the force to strike the type on to the paper, you really had to hammer on them.
    - matwood 6y ago
      > Older-than-40 here, I learned to type primarily on electric typewriters and old-school terminal keyboards Came here to say the same thing. But then I was stuck on keyboards that required bottoming out for many years. It's been a re-learning process to not bottom out on my fairly keychron k2. But, wow so pleasant to use.
  - 6y ago
- executesorder66 6y ago
  I did not know you could get low profile keys. That's interesting and I'll look into that. Why aren't they the default though? But even with everything you say, I still don't see the point. You'd have to find specific switches and keys (which will probably be more difficult to find and more expensive) just to end up with something that roughly matches a rubber dome keyboard. And yeah, I admit they look cooler overall. And they have a more "hacker" vibe to them which I can appreciate. But again I still can't think why I'd spend all that extra money/effort on something that struggles to match a normal keyboard for typing. And yeah, when I'm coding I hardly type, I spend most of the time thinking. But I still do a lot of typing in general. Writing online comments, group IM chats, searching stuff on the internet, typing commands into a terminal. And whenever I've tried any of that on a mechanical keyboard, it just feels like my typing speed is unnecessarily slowed down. I get irritated by the latency in the same way I get irritated waiting for a website to load all it's useless extra js scripts that will have no effect on the bit of text I want to read.
  - schwartzworld 6y ago
    - Why aren't [low profile key caps] the default though? I can't say. I came to mechanical keyboards to get away from the crappy Apple laptop keyboards, so would never occur to me to use key caps like that. - You'd have to find specific switches and keys (which will probably be more difficult to find and more expensive) Have to? Or get to? Sourcing parts for your dream keyboard can be fun. At least as fun as any other hobby. At the end of the day, if you like the keyboard you're using, you're doing it right. The one thing I will say, is that my fingers probably touch my keyboard more than any other item in my house. I'm a developer and I might spend hours straight at the computer. When you consider that, the $150 I spent on my keyboard or the $99 I spent on my trackball don't seem like so much money.
  - __float 6y ago
    Low profile mechanical keyboards seem to be pretty slim pickings, still. https://www.keychron.com/products/keychron-k1-wireless-mechanical-keyboard https://www.keychron.com/products/keychron-k1-wireless-mecha... is one of the first I saw gain pretty wide popularity.
rgoulter 6y ago
> Sure they are a bit more customizable, but is that really worth all the drawbacks? Yes. Or at least, "mechanical keyboards" is broad enough that it also includes ortholinear or column-staggered designs, as well as split keyboards. (i.e. I mean a more narrow "some mechanical keyboards are much better than non-mechanical" rather than arguing "mechanical keyboards are always better than non-mechanical"). Typical keyboards have staggered-rows, and are asymmetrical. (The distance from left-ctrl to index finger is different from right-ctrl to index finger). The biggest downside of this design is it encourages heavy usage of the pinky finger, as well as stretching fingers, and moving the hand from home row. Compare the number of keys relegated to the pinky finger vs the much stronger thumb. The customizability of these keyboards affords further techniques to reduce hand movement and pinky usage. I'm happy to take the trade-off of a slightly longer travel time for the benefit of reduced usage of the pinky finger, reduced hand movement. These benefits are orthogonal to the switches being mechanical. Maybe it's easier to come up with these designs by making use of mechanical switches. But almost all the "ortholinear or column-staggered, split" keyboards I'm aware of are mechanical.
- executesorder66 6y ago
  > These benefits are orthogonal to the switches being mechanical. Yeah you raise some good points, but as you mentioned here it doesn't really have anything to do with the types of switches. It's just that most of these non-standard keyboards happen to be mechanical. In my comment I am mainly talking about the pros/cons of switching to mechanical switches.
  - flaviu2 6y ago
    It does, a bit. If I wanted to make a rubber some keyboard, I'd have startup costs in the thousands of dollars range for molds and such. But I can make PCBs for a mechanical keyboard for only $30. The cost of mechanical keyboard is far lower in low quantities.
    - rgoulter 6y ago
      There are some similar statements: "mechanical keyboards aren't much better than normal keyboards", "mechanical key switches aren't much better than normal key switches", to which "some mechanical keyboards are much nicer than standard keyboards" aims at the former. I feel to say about "mechanical keyboard vs standard keyboard", these niche ergonomic keyboards should be considered. I only recently discovered these weird keyboards. So I figure that's as good an excuse as any to extol these benefits. (And complain about how weird a standard keyboard is!). Capital required to come up with a keyboard design is a much more minor factor.
Nursie 6y ago
They are louder, that's no issue for me though. I don't mind. Are they are expensive? I paid less for mine than an equivalent apple keyboard, for example. I like the aesthetic, personally. The typing on them is, for me, both faster and more accurate. Well beyond that and of far more importance for someone who uses their hands to make money, I find the long travel and mechanical resistance is much, much more comfortable and less strain inducing.
freeone3000 6y ago
I find mechanical keyboards much nicer to type on - the keys have enough force to actively push back into position, which gives a great pressed/not-pressed response. This definitely helps when typing quickly. The key travel distance should be about the same as a membrane keyboard - activation happens at the midpoint, not the terminal point, so if you're using the full travel distance you're typing too hard.
- executesorder66 6y ago
  > the keys have enough force to actively push back into position, which gives a great pressed/not-pressed response. I'm not sure I understand this. How does a rubber dome keyboard not do this? > The key travel distance should be about the same as a membrane keyboard I must disagree. I've tested them side by side, and all the mechanical keyboards activate at at least twice the distance. (I've tried like 5 different ones, so not exhaustive, but still) > activation happens at the midpoint, not the terminal point I do know this, but it also irritates me. Why not just stop at the activation point? That should give you better feedback than trying to find the activation point somewhere in the middle.
  - freeone3000 6y ago
    It's so you don't bottom out. The goal is for you to press the key, it activate, and you release for the return without any jolts along the way. (Some models, like browns, have a tactile bump where the resistance changes). The "bonus" 50% travel is to avoid the shock of bottoming out and pressing against an inflexible surface.
    - executesorder66 6y ago
      Thanks that makes a bit more sense to me. I think maybe I should just get one and experiment a bit more. Perhaps I wasn't giving it enough of a chance.
prionassembly 6y ago
- I often use apps that will produce extra noise on the computer (with headphones, not to annoy my workspace-sharing wife) to enhance the physical sensation of typing. Maybe this is because I'm an "older millenial" who grew up tinkering on my dad's typewriters, but it helps me feeling "settled down" and "embodied". - Yes, but most (I'm having a bad experience with a malfunctioning 5-year-old Kinesis, but that's way too complicated a keyboard with too much electronics, programmability, etc) are simple and hardy. I've lugged a Happy Hacking inside a backpack for many many years and it's just great. It's lasted me three laptops by now. - Judgement call, yeah. - You don't have to press keys to the bottom. Keys that go all the way down take some getting used to, since they have an "implicit" point where they'll register, but overall travel time doesn't have to be much larger than in a thin keyboard. What makes it ergonomic is precisely that there's a lot of yielding to this point where keys will register, so your fingers aren't hitting the metal all the time. I started using mechanical keyboards because I was trying to get into the classical guitar and had long fingernails on one hand. Except for the Kinesis, which does assume a whole postural ergonomics setting and desk space to place it, smaller keyboards like the Happy Hacking are a great add-on to a travelling laptop setup. Besides, since they're usually also USB hubs, you can switch your wireless mouse between laptops together with your keyboard. The only thing I wish my Happy Hacking had is a wireless interface like the ubiquitous Microsoft mouses with the little dongle. But I'm not in a phase of my life when I'm spending a lot of money on new stuff.
monadic3 6y ago
I can't remember a single time typing speed has impacted my work, fwiw, and it's much harder to hurt your wrist with the longer travel.
hulitu 6y ago
> So I'm not alone. I really can't understand the appeal of a mechanical keyboard. You feel when the key was pressed . All new keyboards that you find in stores are horrible. Pressing on their keys is like pressing on a mat. Why do i always have to look on the screen to see if the press was registered ?
cmiller1 6y ago
While some of your points are good, and some of the quibbles with them have been addressed in other comments, I'd like to point out the big advantage to specific mechanical keyboards for me: nostalgia and muscle memory. I grew up on the Apple Extended II keyboard and just recently bought myself a new keyboard with Alps switches. It feels like what I grew up with, it feels right to me.
throw1234651234 6y ago
I use a $20 "Made in China" Dell KB212-B. The ONLY issue I have is that I can't program some shortcut to use the arrow keys via WASD or something, since reaching for the arrow keys in code slows down my typing a LOT, especially since I use it frequently for things like ctrl + -->, ctrl + shift + -->, etc. I also use Home and End frequently to go to end of the line and alt + ^ to move lines up and down. Other than that though, I have tried co-workers $200 keyboards and see zero difference. I guess the short keyboards are kind of cool to have your hands truly centered when using a mouse.
lawn 6y ago
You should check out low-profile choc switches. Low travel time, silent and slim. I use them together with a Kyria, best keyboard I've ever had.
thereddaikon 6y ago
It sounds to me like you have used one particular kind of mechanical keyboard. What you describe sounds a lot like either a buckling spring like the Model M or a clicky tactile switch like the Cherry MX Blue. One of the cool things about mechanical switches is they can be built in such a way to have different characteristics. Much like how a car's suspension can be tuned to be soft or hard and with high ground clearance or low down you can build switches to be loud of quiet, clicky or soft, long or short travel. As for why they are appealing, many people like tactile interfaces with positive feedback. In a world where everything is a touch sensitive slab of glass its nice to interface with something mechanical and responsive instead of a lifeless slate. Its the dexterous equivalent to ASMR. Its why people like manual transmissions, bolt action rifles, physical switches and knobs.
- macNchz 6y ago
  Yeah I think like anything there's a spectrum of how people perceive and react to tactile things. I'm really into all the things that feel nice in your hand. I love the weighted shift knob on my manual transmission car, my topre keyboard, the click-feel of my Intellimouse, the mechanical feeling of my various pocketknives, any heavy well-built hand tools, twiddling a nice wood pencil while I think. I'll often favor buying products that have really nice knobs or switches–I just bought a microwave that has a nice knob for setting the time instead of a flat button panel.
  - MengerSponge 6y ago
    May I introduce you to one of my favorite niche youtube channels? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4VfzMbn28E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4VfzMbn28E
    - s_fischer 6y ago
      I just want to thank you for this discovery, I was waiting for the over analyzed description of the scroll wheel and nearly had a spit take upon hearing his review. In an age where everyone and their mom (literally) are doing sponsored product reviews on youtube, and also as a lifelong hardware nerd, this parody really appeals to my inner soul.
DamnInteresting 6y ago
I prefer chiclet style keyboards when I am coding, and mechanical keyboards when I am writing. The clack of the keys acts as a sort of white noise to shut out the world and allows me to think about what I'm writing more clearly. When I was able to write in coffee shops and the like, I didn't want to bother other patrons with a noisy keyboard, so I whipped up my own writing app that simulates loud keys via headphones, and it works almost as well as the real thing.
telchar 6y ago
I'm with you on this. I recently tried out a keyboard with Cherry MX switches and was taken by surprise by how wobbly they were. I assumed they would be less wobbly than my old keyboard. It really ruined whatever tactile gain there was to be had. Sure maybe that revealed some problem with my typing technique, but I can't picture myself growing to like such a wobbly key.
enraged_camel 6y ago
Loudness is particularly annoying. I cannot do any typing (e.g. note taking) in conference calls because people complain about the noise. I always have to mute myself first.
zamalek 6y ago
> If you are a mechanical keyboard fanatic, my comment angered you, My level of enthusiast is "I built my own." And not at all, everyone has their preferences. I went with one of the loudest switches you can get (Kailh Box Jade) because the loudness of a switch is strongly correlated with the tactility of a switch. Tactility is the physical "bump" that typically aligned with the actuation point (and sound) of the switch. The theory is that bottoming out a switch can contribute to repetitive strain injury, and the tactile bump allows you acquire the muscle memory to stop before the bottom. Also, typing on the keyboard feels like cracking glass :). There are really neat force diagrams that show the tactile bump[1]. Gamers and office workers tend to prefer linear switches, which don't have a tactile bump and are actuated by bottoming them out. The sound also arises due to bottoming them out. > They are loud You can alleviate 70% of this problem by choosing linear switches (typically red colored) and installing o-rings (about 30min of work). Enthusiasts go the extra mile and lubricate the switches and install a film in the switch that tightens up tolerances (this takes hours). Once you go the full mile, you end up with something like this[2]. You can't buy a keyboard with any of that done, unless you get someone to build it for you. > The keys are massive and ugly You can switch them out, keycaps come in all shapes and sizes, but that is definitely down to preference. > They are expensive Oh yes. > Massive travel time (So slow to type on) You do get low-profile switches, but that that gets expensive. The Logitech G915 starts at $229. Travel distance is only correlated to typing speed if you aren't used to larger travel distances. From what I've seen, the typing speed ceiling on mechanical keyboards is typically higher. In addition most people type incorrectly (myself included) and this contributes far more to typing speed than the mechanism of the keyboard. -- Ultimately, keep doing what you are doing. If you like the extreme low travel of the Magic Keyboard, then that's the perfect keyboard for you. That being said, if you haven't given an appropriate mechanical keyboard a chance then you aren't making a decision with all the possible data. [1]: https://chart-studio.plotly.com/~haata/417.embed https://chart-studio.plotly.com/~haata/417.embed [2]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2nLxvWvrJM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2nLxvWvrJM
ardy42 6y ago
> - They are loud That really depends. This one seems pretty quiet: https://youtu.be/rGM8Y6yal-8?t=337 https://youtu.be/rGM8Y6yal-8?t=337, but buckling spring keyboards are obnoxiously loud (IIRC from my childhood). > - The keys are massive and ugly That's only true if your preference is for laptop-style keyboards. > - Massive travel time (So slow to type on) IIRC, one of the main benefits of mechanical key-switches is that you don't have to bottom them out to activate them. On my keyboard, there's at least 50% more travel after the switch is activated, and the travel-to-activation doesn't seem massively different than a laptop keyboard. Also, non-mechanical desktop-style keyboards require the most travel time of anything. > Sure they are a bit more customizable, but is that really worth all the drawbacks? Especially the worse typing, which is the main point of a keyboard. Honestly, I think one of the better arguments for mechanical keyboards is that most non-mechanical keyboards were designed with cost reduction as the top priority (or in the case of Apple, thinness for its own sake). I guess if you're used to that, it's fine, but gunning for cheap usually leads to quality compromises in other areas. The most annoying things regarding mechanical keyboards is that the culture around them has weird obsessions (like stripping things down to the fewest possible keys and using stylish custom keycaps). For instance, when I was searching for a quiet keyboard video, I found this one (https://youtu.be/O3-9ttpaU0E?t=57 https://youtu.be/O3-9ttpaU0E?t=57), where they guy misses the point and thinks the cool thing about Symbolics keyboards was the keycap style, when it's really the seven modifier keys.
chipotle_coyote 6y ago
Type on what feels good to you. My favorite keyboards are mechanical (the Matias Mini Tactile Pro, nearly tied with a Vortex 3 using Cherry MX Clears), but my next favorite is Apple's Magic Keyboard. So much of this is ultimately subjective. The Tactile Pro key switches are absurdly loud, but the MX Clears really aren't, and I've been able to type 100+ words per minute on nearly all good keyboards -- the only ones that really throw me off are Apple's unlamented "butterfly" keyboard design and membrane-switch chiclets. But, all I can say is "worse typing" is, well, super subjective. I type at least as well on mechanical keyboards, and I find my fingers don't get as tired when I'm using them. For what it's worth, I'm in my 50s, have been using mechanical keyboards for as much of the nearly 40 years I've been dorking with computers, and I've had very few RSI-related problems. I think I've been pretty good about ergonomics across the board, so I'm not going to ascribe that solely to keyswitches -- but I think they've definitely helped.
laumars 6y ago
It’s really just what you’re used to. I grew up using mechanical keyboards and find keyboards with shorter travel times annoying because I already have the muscle meme out of hitting the keys harder. I also quite like the clacketty sound they make but I totally get why some people would find that off putting. For me it’s as soothing as the sound of gentle rain on an autumn evening. Maybe I’m weird there but I’d wager I’m not unique. Mechanical keyboards don’t need to be expensive either. I will grant you some people fetishise over high end keyboards but you can pick up new mechanical keyboards for the fraction of the price of those limit run models if you’re happy for something a little more mass produced (and, frankly, they work just as well). Keyboard typing speed is always going to be dependent on what you’re used it. I bet some typists on a 1970s typewriter could run circles around the average developer on a chiclet keyboard. Ultimately the choice of keyboard really boils down to personal preference.
TheCapeGreek 6y ago
Without the increase travel time I find it near impossible to not bottom out on normie keyboards. When typing at high speed it causes my fingers massive joint pain because I'm basically tapping on a surface constantly instead of getting feedback. And I used to use the Mac keyboards from ~2010 for years before a cheapo generic keyboard caused me to have those issues and I shelled out for a mechanical. Haven't had that particular issue since, only RSI was the kinds I'd have had regardless of if I used normal keyboards or not.

schwartzworld 6y ago

I probably don't speak for everybody, but I can try to speak to your points above: - They are loud They can be loud, depending on the switches you get. However, some people feel that they benefit from it. The loud clicks are satisfying in some way. Maybe it's an ASMR thing for some people. For me, the sound feels like feedback. - They are expensive They can be. But so can regular keyboards. My first mechanical was like $40. - The keys are massive and ugly Unless you put low profile switches on your keyboard - Massive travel time (So slow to type on) Unless you put fast switches on your keyboard. The clickiest keys tend to be the slowest, but I don't type more than 80 words per minute anyway, and when I'm coding a lot less than that. But you can definitely get faster switches. Here's another reason: it's fun. It's just fun. Sure maybe it's just cosplaying as a hacker, but it's still fun. And most mechanicals can be remapped really easily, to allow custom workflows. Or layers. What I may potentially lose in words per minute, I gain by creating an intuitive key map that lets me reach the keys that I actually need day to day.

mewse 6y ago
> They can be loud, depending on the switches you get. It’s worth noting that for folks who don’t know proper typing technique (which is probably nearly everybody under the age of 40, as nobody really teaches it any more, at least in the countries where I’ve lived) it almost doesn’t matter what sort of mechanical switch you’re using, in terms of noise. In my experience, the majority of mechanical keyboard noise for most folks doesn’t actually come from the switches at all; it comes from the keys noisily bottoming out on each keystroke. My theory is that most folks these days learned to type on membrane keyboards where you have to bottom out the keys (often with quite a lot of force, if the keyboard is old), or else on a laptop’s scissor switches where you can’t avoid bottoming out due to the extremely short throw, and so everyone’s just typing with much more force than necessary and driving the keys all the way down to the backplate on every press because that’s what they had to do with the keyboards they learned on. Which of course makes typing far less pleasant, and also much noisier! The complaints are totally understandable, from that perspective. This also links into the “Massive travel time” comment; most folks push the keys much too far down while typing on mechanical keyboards! Cherry MX Blue switches (as one example) actuate at 2mm, which is almost exactly the same distance as most (non-Apple) laptop scissor switches. The only reason that a mechanical keyboard would have “massive travel time” compared to a laptop keyboard is if you’re needlessly pushing the keys all the way down, when you actually only need a gentle tap on them.
- DennisP 6y ago
  That's the exact reason I use mechs. My finger joints started getting sore from typing, which was a career threat for me. I bought a collection of nice keyboards with Cherry browns and reds, and trained myself to type without bottoming out, and the problem went away. As a bonus, it turned out that typing that way was faster for me. For several years, sometimes I slacked off and just typed on my Mac keyboard, and fingers would start getting sore again so I'd switch back to the mechs. Now I've apparently healed up a bit and a modest amount of laptop typing doesn't bother me, but I still bring out the mechs for more substantial work.
- lmilcin 6y ago
  It is difficult to unlearn once you learn it incorrectly. I have learned to touchtype about 80WPM in my teens, over 2 decades ago and I still have hard time not bottoming out or using right shift key. I have been successful in re-learning to use dvorak instead of qwerty and to type in a tempo (ie. with equal intervals, using metronome), but the bottoming dynamic is much more basic than that, I think.
- cbm-vic-20 6y ago
  Agree. Older-than-40 here, I learned to type primarily on electric typewriters and old-school terminal keyboards, where the switches would trigger around half-way down the travel of the key. When I use a mechanical keyboard, I do the same- the Cherry MX Clear switches in my keyboard act in a similar way- you don't need to "bottom out" a switch for it to activate. Manual typewriters, though, had a /huge/ amount of travel, and since the travel provides the force to strike the type on to the paper, you really had to hammer on them.
  - matwood 6y ago
    > Older-than-40 here, I learned to type primarily on electric typewriters and old-school terminal keyboards Came here to say the same thing. But then I was stuck on keyboards that required bottoming out for many years. It's been a re-learning process to not bottom out on my fairly keychron k2. But, wow so pleasant to use.
- 6y ago
executesorder66 6y ago
I did not know you could get low profile keys. That's interesting and I'll look into that. Why aren't they the default though? But even with everything you say, I still don't see the point. You'd have to find specific switches and keys (which will probably be more difficult to find and more expensive) just to end up with something that roughly matches a rubber dome keyboard. And yeah, I admit they look cooler overall. And they have a more "hacker" vibe to them which I can appreciate. But again I still can't think why I'd spend all that extra money/effort on something that struggles to match a normal keyboard for typing. And yeah, when I'm coding I hardly type, I spend most of the time thinking. But I still do a lot of typing in general. Writing online comments, group IM chats, searching stuff on the internet, typing commands into a terminal. And whenever I've tried any of that on a mechanical keyboard, it just feels like my typing speed is unnecessarily slowed down. I get irritated by the latency in the same way I get irritated waiting for a website to load all it's useless extra js scripts that will have no effect on the bit of text I want to read.
- schwartzworld 6y ago
  - Why aren't [low profile key caps] the default though? I can't say. I came to mechanical keyboards to get away from the crappy Apple laptop keyboards, so would never occur to me to use key caps like that. - You'd have to find specific switches and keys (which will probably be more difficult to find and more expensive) Have to? Or get to? Sourcing parts for your dream keyboard can be fun. At least as fun as any other hobby. At the end of the day, if you like the keyboard you're using, you're doing it right. The one thing I will say, is that my fingers probably touch my keyboard more than any other item in my house. I'm a developer and I might spend hours straight at the computer. When you consider that, the $150 I spent on my keyboard or the $99 I spent on my trackball don't seem like so much money.
- __float 6y ago
  Low profile mechanical keyboards seem to be pretty slim pickings, still. https://www.keychron.com/products/keychron-k1-wireless-mechanical-keyboard https://www.keychron.com/products/keychron-k1-wireless-mecha... is one of the first I saw gain pretty wide popularity.

rgoulter 6y ago

> Sure they are a bit more customizable, but is that really worth all the drawbacks? Yes. Or at least, "mechanical keyboards" is broad enough that it also includes ortholinear or column-staggered designs, as well as split keyboards. (i.e. I mean a more narrow "some mechanical keyboards are much better than non-mechanical" rather than arguing "mechanical keyboards are always better than non-mechanical"). Typical keyboards have staggered-rows, and are asymmetrical. (The distance from left-ctrl to index finger is different from right-ctrl to index finger). The biggest downside of this design is it encourages heavy usage of the pinky finger, as well as stretching fingers, and moving the hand from home row. Compare the number of keys relegated to the pinky finger vs the much stronger thumb. The customizability of these keyboards affords further techniques to reduce hand movement and pinky usage. I'm happy to take the trade-off of a slightly longer travel time for the benefit of reduced usage of the pinky finger, reduced hand movement. These benefits are orthogonal to the switches being mechanical. Maybe it's easier to come up with these designs by making use of mechanical switches. But almost all the "ortholinear or column-staggered, split" keyboards I'm aware of are mechanical.

executesorder66 6y ago
> These benefits are orthogonal to the switches being mechanical. Yeah you raise some good points, but as you mentioned here it doesn't really have anything to do with the types of switches. It's just that most of these non-standard keyboards happen to be mechanical. In my comment I am mainly talking about the pros/cons of switching to mechanical switches.
- flaviu2 6y ago
  It does, a bit. If I wanted to make a rubber some keyboard, I'd have startup costs in the thousands of dollars range for molds and such. But I can make PCBs for a mechanical keyboard for only $30. The cost of mechanical keyboard is far lower in low quantities.
  - rgoulter 6y ago
    There are some similar statements: "mechanical keyboards aren't much better than normal keyboards", "mechanical key switches aren't much better than normal key switches", to which "some mechanical keyboards are much nicer than standard keyboards" aims at the former. I feel to say about "mechanical keyboard vs standard keyboard", these niche ergonomic keyboards should be considered. I only recently discovered these weird keyboards. So I figure that's as good an excuse as any to extol these benefits. (And complain about how weird a standard keyboard is!). Capital required to come up with a keyboard design is a much more minor factor.

Nursie 6y ago

They are louder, that's no issue for me though. I don't mind. Are they are expensive? I paid less for mine than an equivalent apple keyboard, for example. I like the aesthetic, personally. The typing on them is, for me, both faster and more accurate. Well beyond that and of far more importance for someone who uses their hands to make money, I find the long travel and mechanical resistance is much, much more comfortable and less strain inducing.

freeone3000 6y ago

I find mechanical keyboards much nicer to type on - the keys have enough force to actively push back into position, which gives a great pressed/not-pressed response. This definitely helps when typing quickly. The key travel distance should be about the same as a membrane keyboard - activation happens at the midpoint, not the terminal point, so if you're using the full travel distance you're typing too hard.

executesorder66 6y ago
> the keys have enough force to actively push back into position, which gives a great pressed/not-pressed response. I'm not sure I understand this. How does a rubber dome keyboard not do this? > The key travel distance should be about the same as a membrane keyboard I must disagree. I've tested them side by side, and all the mechanical keyboards activate at at least twice the distance. (I've tried like 5 different ones, so not exhaustive, but still) > activation happens at the midpoint, not the terminal point I do know this, but it also irritates me. Why not just stop at the activation point? That should give you better feedback than trying to find the activation point somewhere in the middle.
- freeone3000 6y ago
  It's so you don't bottom out. The goal is for you to press the key, it activate, and you release for the return without any jolts along the way. (Some models, like browns, have a tactile bump where the resistance changes). The "bonus" 50% travel is to avoid the shock of bottoming out and pressing against an inflexible surface.
  - executesorder66 6y ago
    Thanks that makes a bit more sense to me. I think maybe I should just get one and experiment a bit more. Perhaps I wasn't giving it enough of a chance.

prionassembly 6y ago

- I often use apps that will produce extra noise on the computer (with headphones, not to annoy my workspace-sharing wife) to enhance the physical sensation of typing. Maybe this is because I'm an "older millenial" who grew up tinkering on my dad's typewriters, but it helps me feeling "settled down" and "embodied". - Yes, but most (I'm having a bad experience with a malfunctioning 5-year-old Kinesis, but that's way too complicated a keyboard with too much electronics, programmability, etc) are simple and hardy. I've lugged a Happy Hacking inside a backpack for many many years and it's just great. It's lasted me three laptops by now. - Judgement call, yeah. - You don't have to press keys to the bottom. Keys that go all the way down take some getting used to, since they have an "implicit" point where they'll register, but overall travel time doesn't have to be much larger than in a thin keyboard. What makes it ergonomic is precisely that there's a lot of yielding to this point where keys will register, so your fingers aren't hitting the metal all the time. I started using mechanical keyboards because I was trying to get into the classical guitar and had long fingernails on one hand. Except for the Kinesis, which does assume a whole postural ergonomics setting and desk space to place it, smaller keyboards like the Happy Hacking are a great add-on to a travelling laptop setup. Besides, since they're usually also USB hubs, you can switch your wireless mouse between laptops together with your keyboard. The only thing I wish my Happy Hacking had is a wireless interface like the ubiquitous Microsoft mouses with the little dongle. But I'm not in a phase of my life when I'm spending a lot of money on new stuff.

monadic3 6y ago

I can't remember a single time typing speed has impacted my work, fwiw, and it's much harder to hurt your wrist with the longer travel.

hulitu 6y ago

> So I'm not alone. I really can't understand the appeal of a mechanical keyboard. You feel when the key was pressed . All new keyboards that you find in stores are horrible. Pressing on their keys is like pressing on a mat. Why do i always have to look on the screen to see if the press was registered ?

cmiller1 6y ago

While some of your points are good, and some of the quibbles with them have been addressed in other comments, I'd like to point out the big advantage to specific mechanical keyboards for me: nostalgia and muscle memory. I grew up on the Apple Extended II keyboard and just recently bought myself a new keyboard with Alps switches. It feels like what I grew up with, it feels right to me.

throw1234651234 6y ago

I use a $20 "Made in China" Dell KB212-B. The ONLY issue I have is that I can't program some shortcut to use the arrow keys via WASD or something, since reaching for the arrow keys in code slows down my typing a LOT, especially since I use it frequently for things like ctrl + -->, ctrl + shift + -->, etc. I also use Home and End frequently to go to end of the line and alt + ^ to move lines up and down. Other than that though, I have tried co-workers $200 keyboards and see zero difference. I guess the short keyboards are kind of cool to have your hands truly centered when using a mouse.

lawn 6y ago

You should check out low-profile choc switches. Low travel time, silent and slim. I use them together with a Kyria, best keyboard I've ever had.

thereddaikon 6y ago

It sounds to me like you have used one particular kind of mechanical keyboard. What you describe sounds a lot like either a buckling spring like the Model M or a clicky tactile switch like the Cherry MX Blue. One of the cool things about mechanical switches is they can be built in such a way to have different characteristics. Much like how a car's suspension can be tuned to be soft or hard and with high ground clearance or low down you can build switches to be loud of quiet, clicky or soft, long or short travel. As for why they are appealing, many people like tactile interfaces with positive feedback. In a world where everything is a touch sensitive slab of glass its nice to interface with something mechanical and responsive instead of a lifeless slate. Its the dexterous equivalent to ASMR. Its why people like manual transmissions, bolt action rifles, physical switches and knobs.

macNchz 6y ago
Yeah I think like anything there's a spectrum of how people perceive and react to tactile things. I'm really into all the things that feel nice in your hand. I love the weighted shift knob on my manual transmission car, my topre keyboard, the click-feel of my Intellimouse, the mechanical feeling of my various pocketknives, any heavy well-built hand tools, twiddling a nice wood pencil while I think. I'll often favor buying products that have really nice knobs or switches–I just bought a microwave that has a nice knob for setting the time instead of a flat button panel.
- MengerSponge 6y ago
  May I introduce you to one of my favorite niche youtube channels? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4VfzMbn28E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4VfzMbn28E
  - s_fischer 6y ago
    I just want to thank you for this discovery, I was waiting for the over analyzed description of the scroll wheel and nearly had a spit take upon hearing his review. In an age where everyone and their mom (literally) are doing sponsored product reviews on youtube, and also as a lifelong hardware nerd, this parody really appeals to my inner soul.

DamnInteresting 6y ago

I prefer chiclet style keyboards when I am coding, and mechanical keyboards when I am writing. The clack of the keys acts as a sort of white noise to shut out the world and allows me to think about what I'm writing more clearly. When I was able to write in coffee shops and the like, I didn't want to bother other patrons with a noisy keyboard, so I whipped up my own writing app that simulates loud keys via headphones, and it works almost as well as the real thing.

telchar 6y ago

I'm with you on this. I recently tried out a keyboard with Cherry MX switches and was taken by surprise by how wobbly they were. I assumed they would be less wobbly than my old keyboard. It really ruined whatever tactile gain there was to be had. Sure maybe that revealed some problem with my typing technique, but I can't picture myself growing to like such a wobbly key.

enraged_camel 6y ago

Loudness is particularly annoying. I cannot do any typing (e.g. note taking) in conference calls because people complain about the noise. I always have to mute myself first.

zamalek 6y ago

> If you are a mechanical keyboard fanatic, my comment angered you, My level of enthusiast is "I built my own." And not at all, everyone has their preferences. I went with one of the loudest switches you can get (Kailh Box Jade) because the loudness of a switch is strongly correlated with the tactility of a switch. Tactility is the physical "bump" that typically aligned with the actuation point (and sound) of the switch. The theory is that bottoming out a switch can contribute to repetitive strain injury, and the tactile bump allows you acquire the muscle memory to stop before the bottom. Also, typing on the keyboard feels like cracking glass :). There are really neat force diagrams that show the tactile bump[1]. Gamers and office workers tend to prefer linear switches, which don't have a tactile bump and are actuated by bottoming them out. The sound also arises due to bottoming them out. > They are loud You can alleviate 70% of this problem by choosing linear switches (typically red colored) and installing o-rings (about 30min of work). Enthusiasts go the extra mile and lubricate the switches and install a film in the switch that tightens up tolerances (this takes hours). Once you go the full mile, you end up with something like this[2]. You can't buy a keyboard with any of that done, unless you get someone to build it for you. > The keys are massive and ugly You can switch them out, keycaps come in all shapes and sizes, but that is definitely down to preference. > They are expensive Oh yes. > Massive travel time (So slow to type on) You do get low-profile switches, but that that gets expensive. The Logitech G915 starts at $229. Travel distance is only correlated to typing speed if you aren't used to larger travel distances. From what I've seen, the typing speed ceiling on mechanical keyboards is typically higher. In addition most people type incorrectly (myself included) and this contributes far more to typing speed than the mechanism of the keyboard. -- Ultimately, keep doing what you are doing. If you like the extreme low travel of the Magic Keyboard, then that's the perfect keyboard for you. That being said, if you haven't given an appropriate mechanical keyboard a chance then you aren't making a decision with all the possible data. [1]: https://chart-studio.plotly.com/~haata/417.embed https://chart-studio.plotly.com/~haata/417.embed [2]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2nLxvWvrJM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2nLxvWvrJM

ardy42 6y ago

> - They are loud That really depends. This one seems pretty quiet: https://youtu.be/rGM8Y6yal-8?t=337 https://youtu.be/rGM8Y6yal-8?t=337, but buckling spring keyboards are obnoxiously loud (IIRC from my childhood). > - The keys are massive and ugly That's only true if your preference is for laptop-style keyboards. > - Massive travel time (So slow to type on) IIRC, one of the main benefits of mechanical key-switches is that you don't have to bottom them out to activate them. On my keyboard, there's at least 50% more travel after the switch is activated, and the travel-to-activation doesn't seem massively different than a laptop keyboard. Also, non-mechanical desktop-style keyboards require the most travel time of anything. > Sure they are a bit more customizable, but is that really worth all the drawbacks? Especially the worse typing, which is the main point of a keyboard. Honestly, I think one of the better arguments for mechanical keyboards is that most non-mechanical keyboards were designed with cost reduction as the top priority (or in the case of Apple, thinness for its own sake). I guess if you're used to that, it's fine, but gunning for cheap usually leads to quality compromises in other areas. The most annoying things regarding mechanical keyboards is that the culture around them has weird obsessions (like stripping things down to the fewest possible keys and using stylish custom keycaps). For instance, when I was searching for a quiet keyboard video, I found this one (https://youtu.be/O3-9ttpaU0E?t=57 https://youtu.be/O3-9ttpaU0E?t=57), where they guy misses the point and thinks the cool thing about Symbolics keyboards was the keycap style, when it's really the seven modifier keys.

chipotle_coyote 6y ago

Type on what feels good to you. My favorite keyboards are mechanical (the Matias Mini Tactile Pro, nearly tied with a Vortex 3 using Cherry MX Clears), but my next favorite is Apple's Magic Keyboard. So much of this is ultimately subjective. The Tactile Pro key switches are absurdly loud, but the MX Clears really aren't, and I've been able to type 100+ words per minute on nearly all good keyboards -- the only ones that really throw me off are Apple's unlamented "butterfly" keyboard design and membrane-switch chiclets. But, all I can say is "worse typing" is, well, super subjective. I type at least as well on mechanical keyboards, and I find my fingers don't get as tired when I'm using them. For what it's worth, I'm in my 50s, have been using mechanical keyboards for as much of the nearly 40 years I've been dorking with computers, and I've had very few RSI-related problems. I think I've been pretty good about ergonomics across the board, so I'm not going to ascribe that solely to keyswitches -- but I think they've definitely helped.

laumars 6y ago

It’s really just what you’re used to. I grew up using mechanical keyboards and find keyboards with shorter travel times annoying because I already have the muscle meme out of hitting the keys harder. I also quite like the clacketty sound they make but I totally get why some people would find that off putting. For me it’s as soothing as the sound of gentle rain on an autumn evening. Maybe I’m weird there but I’d wager I’m not unique. Mechanical keyboards don’t need to be expensive either. I will grant you some people fetishise over high end keyboards but you can pick up new mechanical keyboards for the fraction of the price of those limit run models if you’re happy for something a little more mass produced (and, frankly, they work just as well). Keyboard typing speed is always going to be dependent on what you’re used it. I bet some typists on a 1970s typewriter could run circles around the average developer on a chiclet keyboard. Ultimately the choice of keyboard really boils down to personal preference.

TheCapeGreek 6y ago

Without the increase travel time I find it near impossible to not bottom out on normie keyboards. When typing at high speed it causes my fingers massive joint pain because I'm basically tapping on a surface constantly instead of getting feedback. And I used to use the Mac keyboards from ~2010 for years before a cheapo generic keyboard caused me to have those issues and I shelled out for a mechanical. Haven't had that particular issue since, only RSI was the kinds I'd have had regardless of if I used normal keyboards or not.