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If a locked down app store is necessary for say safety, perhaps a good analogue is a water utility company. A water company has a monopoly in an area, due to

If a locked down app store is necessary for say safety, perhaps a good analogue is a water utility company. A water company has a monopoly in an area, due to the impractical nature of duplicate infrastructure. However, in return it may be heavily regulated in terms of its safety and pricing. If you have to have a single app store then their prices should be regulated, and crucially there should be proper recourse for developers denied access to the platform

enos_feedler 6y ago
The difference between regulating the price of water and the price of an app is the innovation curve. You can regulate the price of water because the creation, distribution and consumption of H20 hasn't changed in a long time. Meanwhile, every June Apple shows up with new APIs that developers can use to tap into the billions of hardware R&D they've invested for that year. Regulating price here is stifling innovation.
- wernercd 6y ago
  it's also stifling innovation to be restricted to one store front. Imagine if all you had was Walmart, Target and KMart (iPhone, Android and Windows). "you can't build a new store because of all the R&D Walmart has put into their stores". You act like all the R&D isn't paid for with phone sales and development kits ($99/year). If you want to restrict the market? The price of that restriction should be regulation.
  - enos_feedler 6y ago
    Actually, imagine if you were Walmart and you've spent the past 25 years investing in your brand, real-estate, parking lots, buildings, advertising, signage, etc. Your goal is to build a thriving business for _your_ customers. A fertilizer company isn't happy with the placement they are getting in your stores, so they sue you and say you need to give them dedicated, premium space in the parking lot. They also think its annoying that customers coming to Walmart for fertilizer need to go into the store to pay for their product. They want these Walmart customers to pay cash in the parking lot, pocketing all the money for themselves. If this sounds ridiculous, it's because it is. Epic is the fertilizer company and this whole lawsuit is embarrassing.
    - wernercd 6y ago
      The difference is plenty of companies can make storefronts - look at Steam vs GOG and all the other options for gaming on Windows. You act like companies wouldn't produce viable alternatives given the opportunity... and you act like Steam isn't better because of the competition. Apple is putting forced restrictions on their platform because they want to squeeze everyone who comes through their doors. Apple acts like they are the only ones who can create a "brand, real-estate, parking lots, etc" when in reality, it can be done a lot better by any number of other companies - the only reason they can charge 30% is because of artificial restrictions put in place so... they can charge 30%. Walmart doesn't want Target next door... because then they'll have to actually innovate to keep their customers.
      - judge2020 6y ago
        Plenty of companies can make phones too, but it takes extreme time, effort, and talent to do so. It all depends on where you put the fertilizer - is the fertilizer company saying they should be able to set up a stall in the walmart parking lot, or are they saying Walmart is preventing them from setting up a store on their own land a hundred feet away from Walmart?
        enos_feedler 6y ago
        I am saying Walmart is preventing the fertilizer stall on their own property. The iPhone hardware, OS and platform is the property of Apple, just like the parking lot is property of Walmart. But actually, I am not even saying Walmart is preventing this. I am just saying Walmart won't hand them this opportunity for free. The result is the fertilizer company suing Walmart.
        wernercd 6y ago
        "for free" and yet Apple will still make a profit due to physical phone sales, $99/year fees, etc. To imply that they aren't profitable outside of the 30% cut is laughable. Plenty of companies "research, develop, provide opportunities" that can't and don't resort to monopolistic and territorialistic practices to block competition. There's no reason that EA can't accept payments outside of the Apple store other than monopolistic protectionism. "research and development" of something 100s of other companies can and do is a weak excuse - and one easily picked apart with relevant examples.
- amelius 6y ago
  Meh. Distribution of computer programs has been done since the beginning of computing. Also, there is innovation in the water supply (which most people are unaware of).
  - enos_feedler 6y ago
    Can you send me your mailing address? I have a cool game for you to check out on a 3.5" floppy. It's also going to install a virus on your computer and you'll need to format your machine after. This was my life in the 6th grade and my dad literally beat me for messing up his computer. I don't want to go back there.
    - kuschku 6y ago
      Send me your floppy to Janne Mareike Koschinski, Lortzingstr. 16, 40667 Meerbusch, Germany. I'd love to look at the software on that floppy, including the virus (it's always fun discovering a novel virus, if there's also games on there even better)
    - jimnotgym 6y ago
      Nobody is saying you can't use just the Apple app store if you are more comfortable with that. But I should also be allowed to use a floppy to get my software if i want.
      - enos_feedler 6y ago
        Solving your small problem creates a big problem for Apple at scale. The wrong people use floppies and everything just gets messed up. Whats to stop some incentive from coming along that nudges people to use floppies when they shouldnt. This is what happened to me in the 6th grade. Free games. Plus virus. Tough pill to swallow but the best solution is the current one. Lock it all down. Want to hack around? Go play on some open stack
count 6y ago
A better analogue is cars. You can't install anything unapproved by Lexus on a Lexus system. But you can buy a different car, and get different software and apps.
- monadic3 6y ago
  I can't tell if you offering this as something that's sane to do or not. I think you should absolutely be able to install the software you want in your lexus; the built-in software is often terrible (yes, including tesla).
- judge2020 6y ago
  The difference depends on if you are talking about what is legal (eg right to repair) or what is possible by the consumer without modification. Legally you can do whatever you want since you own the hardware - but in both Apple’s case and Lexus’ case, installing a non-OEM part will void the warranty on that part, or in Apple’s case, the entire kernel since you’re modifying that kernel (although it’s easy to factory reset an iOS device and remove the modification without a trace).
- wraptile 6y ago
  > You can't install anything unapproved by Lexus on a Lexus system Only as of recently and still rarely. Most cars of the world hardly used original parts for repairs. The whole auto repair industry is based on a bunch of hacks and fixes that are not licensed by holy overlords. Most of car computer AFAIK can be sideloaded and hacked with exception of something like the infamous john deere. Speaking of which, John Deere has been in the news for this for ages now and maybe it's time to seriously liberate car software as well.

enos_feedler 6y ago

The difference between regulating the price of water and the price of an app is the innovation curve. You can regulate the price of water because the creation, distribution and consumption of H20 hasn't changed in a long time. Meanwhile, every June Apple shows up with new APIs that developers can use to tap into the billions of hardware R&D they've invested for that year. Regulating price here is stifling innovation.

wernercd 6y ago
it's also stifling innovation to be restricted to one store front. Imagine if all you had was Walmart, Target and KMart (iPhone, Android and Windows). "you can't build a new store because of all the R&D Walmart has put into their stores". You act like all the R&D isn't paid for with phone sales and development kits ($99/year). If you want to restrict the market? The price of that restriction should be regulation.
- enos_feedler 6y ago
  Actually, imagine if you were Walmart and you've spent the past 25 years investing in your brand, real-estate, parking lots, buildings, advertising, signage, etc. Your goal is to build a thriving business for _your_ customers. A fertilizer company isn't happy with the placement they are getting in your stores, so they sue you and say you need to give them dedicated, premium space in the parking lot. They also think its annoying that customers coming to Walmart for fertilizer need to go into the store to pay for their product. They want these Walmart customers to pay cash in the parking lot, pocketing all the money for themselves. If this sounds ridiculous, it's because it is. Epic is the fertilizer company and this whole lawsuit is embarrassing.
  - wernercd 6y ago
    The difference is plenty of companies can make storefronts - look at Steam vs GOG and all the other options for gaming on Windows. You act like companies wouldn't produce viable alternatives given the opportunity... and you act like Steam isn't better because of the competition. Apple is putting forced restrictions on their platform because they want to squeeze everyone who comes through their doors. Apple acts like they are the only ones who can create a "brand, real-estate, parking lots, etc" when in reality, it can be done a lot better by any number of other companies - the only reason they can charge 30% is because of artificial restrictions put in place so... they can charge 30%. Walmart doesn't want Target next door... because then they'll have to actually innovate to keep their customers.
    - judge2020 6y ago
      Plenty of companies can make phones too, but it takes extreme time, effort, and talent to do so. It all depends on where you put the fertilizer - is the fertilizer company saying they should be able to set up a stall in the walmart parking lot, or are they saying Walmart is preventing them from setting up a store on their own land a hundred feet away from Walmart?
      - enos_feedler 6y ago
        I am saying Walmart is preventing the fertilizer stall on their own property. The iPhone hardware, OS and platform is the property of Apple, just like the parking lot is property of Walmart. But actually, I am not even saying Walmart is preventing this. I am just saying Walmart won't hand them this opportunity for free. The result is the fertilizer company suing Walmart.
        wernercd 6y ago
        "for free" and yet Apple will still make a profit due to physical phone sales, $99/year fees, etc. To imply that they aren't profitable outside of the 30% cut is laughable. Plenty of companies "research, develop, provide opportunities" that can't and don't resort to monopolistic and territorialistic practices to block competition. There's no reason that EA can't accept payments outside of the Apple store other than monopolistic protectionism. "research and development" of something 100s of other companies can and do is a weak excuse - and one easily picked apart with relevant examples.
amelius 6y ago
Meh. Distribution of computer programs has been done since the beginning of computing. Also, there is innovation in the water supply (which most people are unaware of).
- enos_feedler 6y ago
  Can you send me your mailing address? I have a cool game for you to check out on a 3.5" floppy. It's also going to install a virus on your computer and you'll need to format your machine after. This was my life in the 6th grade and my dad literally beat me for messing up his computer. I don't want to go back there.
  - kuschku 6y ago
    Send me your floppy to Janne Mareike Koschinski, Lortzingstr. 16, 40667 Meerbusch, Germany. I'd love to look at the software on that floppy, including the virus (it's always fun discovering a novel virus, if there's also games on there even better)
  - jimnotgym 6y ago
    Nobody is saying you can't use just the Apple app store if you are more comfortable with that. But I should also be allowed to use a floppy to get my software if i want.
    - enos_feedler 6y ago
      Solving your small problem creates a big problem for Apple at scale. The wrong people use floppies and everything just gets messed up. Whats to stop some incentive from coming along that nudges people to use floppies when they shouldnt. This is what happened to me in the 6th grade. Free games. Plus virus. Tough pill to swallow but the best solution is the current one. Lock it all down. Want to hack around? Go play on some open stack

count 6y ago

A better analogue is cars. You can't install anything unapproved by Lexus on a Lexus system. But you can buy a different car, and get different software and apps.

monadic3 6y ago
I can't tell if you offering this as something that's sane to do or not. I think you should absolutely be able to install the software you want in your lexus; the built-in software is often terrible (yes, including tesla).
judge2020 6y ago
The difference depends on if you are talking about what is legal (eg right to repair) or what is possible by the consumer without modification. Legally you can do whatever you want since you own the hardware - but in both Apple’s case and Lexus’ case, installing a non-OEM part will void the warranty on that part, or in Apple’s case, the entire kernel since you’re modifying that kernel (although it’s easy to factory reset an iOS device and remove the modification without a trace).
wraptile 6y ago
> You can't install anything unapproved by Lexus on a Lexus system Only as of recently and still rarely. Most cars of the world hardly used original parts for repairs. The whole auto repair industry is based on a bunch of hacks and fixes that are not licensed by holy overlords. Most of car computer AFAIK can be sideloaded and hacked with exception of something like the infamous john deere. Speaking of which, John Deere has been in the news for this for ages now and maybe it's time to seriously liberate car software as well.