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Human medical experimentation has a horrifying history and in living memory alone we have the atrocities during WWII, MK ultra, Tuskegee experiment, past (and o

Human medical experimentation has a horrifying history and in living memory alone we have the atrocities during WWII, MK ultra, Tuskegee experiment, past (and ongoing) experiments on aboriginal populations, Operation Whitecoat, the Ohio prison experiments, and the entire pharma industry pre-Kefauver-Harris Drug Amendment but the Beecher paper really drove home how widespread the practice was in regular medical research. Unethical experimentation wasn't the stuff of war crimes, it was a relatively common practice for everyday medical researchers even a few decades ago with dire consequences for medicine. It's no more elitist than an electrician telling someone that they can't wire their house themselves "because construction and safety organizations have studied this for decades and understand it more than you" when burning down the entire block is a very real possibility. The consequences of breaches in medical ethics have been dire: to this day minority and aboriginal populations have worse health outcomes because they have lower trust in the medical establishment and even relatively small breaches in trust like the CIA vaccination program in Pakistan can have devastating effects like the revival of polio. Bioethics and "modern" medicine are relative new so we're well into the conservative whiplash stage of the natural "boom and bust cycle" but for a damn good reason. You're not going to appreciate the seriousness of the subject without really digging into the very recent history of bioethics.

trulyme 6y ago
There is a big difference between signing up willingly to be a test subject for a specific disease, where you are more or less aware of the risks and accept them of free will, versus being experimented on without choice in the matter. GP was talking about former, you are judging the latter.
- omginternets 6y ago
  And there are real questions about the enlightened part of "enlightened consent".
  - michaelt 6y ago
    If that's the case, how can anyone consent to anything? Can I consent to getting a taxi ride to the doctor's office, when we might get in a car crash and die?
    - omginternets 6y ago
      Surely we can agree that assessing medical risk requires a deeper education than assessing the risk of taking a taxi.
maxerickson 6y ago
Mistake A was made in the past, therefore we are adamant that we need to make mistake B today.
Dylan16807 6y ago
> It's no more elitist than an electrician telling someone that they can't wire their house themselves "because construction and safety organizations have studied this for decades and understand it more than you" when burning down the entire block is a very real possibility. The electrician isn't presenting themselves as an expert on the ethics of 240 volt plugs and which rooms you're allowed to install one in. It's a big difference.
throwaway888abc 6y ago
Tuskegee experiment, never heard of, thanks, therefore https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_Syphilis_Study https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_Syphilis_Study "The purpose of this study was to observe the natural history of untreated syphilis; the African-American men who participated in the study were TOLD that they were receiving free health care from the federal government of the United States." Trust your government, Learn from the past. Now is obviously all much better ?
dillondoyle 6y ago
Most of those examples had no consent though, let alone informed consent. I do agree with OP that it's condescending to say that a non-PHD can't educate themselves enough for informed consent right now. To me the time frame makes a difference though. Could one give informed consent in the first few months of a pandemic when we didn't know anything about the short and long term consequences? I think yeah it's their body they can jump in to benefit their family and all of us. What about now that we have more data about immediate safety in younger adults and a bit more about potential longer term effects? I agree with OP and don't think it's comparable to the serious problems you list. Us non-scientists can understand enough to make this risk / society reward decision with our own bodies.
rootusrootus 6y ago
> an electrician telling someone that they can't wire their house themselves FWIW, in general it is perfectly legal for a homeowner to do their own electrical work on their own home.

trulyme 6y ago

There is a big difference between signing up willingly to be a test subject for a specific disease, where you are more or less aware of the risks and accept them of free will, versus being experimented on without choice in the matter. GP was talking about former, you are judging the latter.

omginternets 6y ago
And there are real questions about the enlightened part of "enlightened consent".
- michaelt 6y ago
  If that's the case, how can anyone consent to anything? Can I consent to getting a taxi ride to the doctor's office, when we might get in a car crash and die?
  - omginternets 6y ago
    Surely we can agree that assessing medical risk requires a deeper education than assessing the risk of taking a taxi.

maxerickson 6y ago

Mistake A was made in the past, therefore we are adamant that we need to make mistake B today.

Dylan16807 6y ago

> It's no more elitist than an electrician telling someone that they can't wire their house themselves "because construction and safety organizations have studied this for decades and understand it more than you" when burning down the entire block is a very real possibility. The electrician isn't presenting themselves as an expert on the ethics of 240 volt plugs and which rooms you're allowed to install one in. It's a big difference.

throwaway888abc 6y ago

Tuskegee experiment, never heard of, thanks, therefore https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_Syphilis_Study https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_Syphilis_Study "The purpose of this study was to observe the natural history of untreated syphilis; the African-American men who participated in the study were TOLD that they were receiving free health care from the federal government of the United States." Trust your government, Learn from the past. Now is obviously all much better ?

dillondoyle 6y ago

Most of those examples had no consent though, let alone informed consent. I do agree with OP that it's condescending to say that a non-PHD can't educate themselves enough for informed consent right now. To me the time frame makes a difference though. Could one give informed consent in the first few months of a pandemic when we didn't know anything about the short and long term consequences? I think yeah it's their body they can jump in to benefit their family and all of us. What about now that we have more data about immediate safety in younger adults and a bit more about potential longer term effects? I agree with OP and don't think it's comparable to the serious problems you list. Us non-scientists can understand enough to make this risk / society reward decision with our own bodies.

rootusrootus 6y ago

> an electrician telling someone that they can't wire their house themselves FWIW, in general it is perfectly legal for a homeowner to do their own electrical work on their own home.