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The best engineering manager in my career was not amongst the best developers I knew. (Conversely, the worst engineering manager in my career was one of the bes

The best engineering manager in my career was not amongst the best developers I knew. (Conversely, the worst engineering manager in my career was one of the best developers I knew). He had two particular skills that many will never have or take a decade or two to cultivate: he could provide you feedback, empathetically, and make you feel like he is genuinely interested in your success and improvement, and he could read a room like no other, often times being the one to say the right thing to break the tension in the room or ask the right question to get us over a roadblock. I know you aren't saying be the best or focus on coding, but if I look back and had to pick between the two, I'd pick the engineering manager who has cultivated the soft skills. At a certain scale, all engineering problems become people problems.

halfmatthalfcat 6y ago
That's fair but my perspective as a lowly engineer was I wanted a role model to learn from and help upskill my career. My people manager managers never had the skills to provide me with any growth, the only reason I'm at where I am today is because I decided I wanted to level up and taught myself outside of work. It's my goal as a manager to be that manager that I never had and lead by example for my reports technically in addition to the expected soft skills of a traditional people manager.
- blacktriangle 6y ago
  The thing is that role model should not be your manager, it should be a senior developer. A good manager is not a role model to teach you, a good manager realizes the importance of lowly engineers having role models and creates a structured mentorship program to make sure that need is being met.
  - halfmatthalfcat 6y ago
    I don't understand why managers cannot fulfill both roles though? The job of management isn't hard (I'm doing it). Outside of the project management responsibilities, there is a lot of time doing nothing. If I wasn't coding, as a manager, 80% of the time I would sit around doing nothing. I strongly believe that managers should be able to fulfill both roles but maybe it's just because I've been burned by so many managers in the past.
    - marcinzm 6y ago
      I've been a manager for a while and at best I get 20% time to code. With 8+ reports the weeks tends to break down into: * 20% for 1-on-1s and dealing with management level issues people bring up. * 20% spent on hiring * 20% on various status meetings (team, cross-team, with my boss, etc.) * 20% spent on pro-actively finding or solving issues before the explode. This includes networking with my counterparts in the rest of the org so I get information and build political capital.
      - Aeolun 6y ago
        20% on hiring with 8 reports?
        pnut 6y ago
        Engineering manager's reports are team leads, so that's like 40-50 people probably. Plus any cross-discipline interviewing.
        marcinzm 6y ago
        Startup so quickly growing team and less recruiting support. Stabler team in a large org would have less hiring but more meetings.
    - dimitrios1 6y ago
      >The job of management isn't hard (I'm doing it). Where do you work? Sign me up! I have hardly any time to code after weekly sprint-related ceremonies, 1:1's, cycle planning, and architecture and code reviews. The job of management, like the job of any developer, varies from company to company, and situation to situation. Thankfully, the people side of my job as a manager is easy right now, but only because the people I manage are reasonable people to work with, and well receptive to feedback. It was very difficult last year when I had to work through more delicate relationships between the employee and employer. As always, it comes down to people. It also sounds like the place you may be managing at may not be challenging enough for you. Perhaps it's time to make a change?
- marcinzm 6y ago
  A manager is only a role model if the promotion structure is Engineer->Manager. At most modern tech companies that is not the main promotion structure. It's Engineer->Senior Engineer->Staff Engineer->Etc. Engineering management is a different path you can choose just like you can become a product manager but it is not the expected path.
  - halfmatthalfcat 6y ago
    I can't say I've ever been in a company where the path wasn't either: Engineer -> Senior -> Principal -> Staff -> Distinguished OR Engineer -> Senior? -> Manager -> Senior Manager -> Director In both scenarios though, they've been a more senior engineer.
    - scruple 6y ago
      I've seen people go from Engineer to Manager, skipping over, for want of better phrasing, the senior engineering ranks. In both cases it went poorly and a founders child was involved, indirectly at first and then later directly.
      - angrais 6y ago
        What do you mean a founders child was involved? Was that the person who skipped the senior rank?
        scruple 6y ago
        One of the founders children was hired on to a low ranking managers team as an entry level Software Engineer. They were hired specifically by the low ranking manager and without the typical interview process. That low ranking manager, inside of a calendar year, became the director of an entirely new division in the engineering org. That division eventually went defunct, having never shipped a single product to production or having accomplished anything else of note. The other was a founders child being promoted from SE I or SE II into a middle management role. That also did not end well.
- ska 6y ago
  > ... as a lowly engineer was I wanted a role model to learn from and help upskill my career. There is no reason this has to be your manager. Your managers job was to understand that this was something you needed, and find a way to try and provide it for you; it's unfortunate that didn't happen for you. > It's my goal as a manager to be that manager Can I make a suggestion? As a manager it's important that you respond to what your team actually needs, rather than your perception of what you would have needed in their place. There are a number of ways to do this well, and a much larger number of ways to mess it up.
- ska 6y ago
  > I wanted a role model to learn from Another general comment on this theme. In my experience people making the engineer to manager transition typically need a mentor and guidance in management even more than they ever needed a technical mentor.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- kvutza 6y ago
  I guess you talk about group leaders, not project managers. Group leaders are from developers, with added responsibilities (and that means with added work).
Zigurd 6y ago
Keeping current on coding, while not attempting to be the best coder in the building, is a key soft skill in terms of participating understanding, and evaluating technical decisions and problems. Empathy comes from placing yourself in the other person's shoes. This is also true for communicating enterprise-wide considerations to coding teams. They have to trust you not to blindly push senior management priorities. If you know the cost of both capital and tech debt, you are more likely to have represented the coding team and influenced decisions, and be able to communicate decisions effectively.
- dimitrios1 6y ago
  I am having a hard time understanding what you are saying, perhaps you could restate? Coding is not a soft skill, even if that is in a capacity where it's used ancillary to other tasks such as the ones you mentioned. I am glad you mentioned it, because communication and trust, on the flip side, are soft skills. You can foster trust through excellent communication and understanding Where the engineering manager does not excel in a particular area of expertise, he or she will defer to the ones that do. A good engineering manager knows their weaknesses, and how to ask for help. The good engineering manager will seek to gather understanding of the technical debts and use that to represent the coding team well. Again communicating those decisions effectively are orthogonal to that process (meaning you can communicate a poor decision effectively just as well as communicating a good decision effectively)
BurningFrog 6y ago
That's obviously a really great manager. I think they're also very rare. And that kind of personality/social skills is not something most people, especially engineers, have. I imagine someone with such skills went on to greater things?
- dimitrios1 6y ago
  We worked together at what I can only describe as a data collection meat grinder. One of those places that loves to say it's all about people one side of their mouth, and act completely contrary to that in the day to day when it comes to chasing revenue and growth. He was met with heavy resistance from senior level business directors because he actually put what the company said were their principles into practice every day. This burned him out a little bit, so he took a break, and is now looking. You hiring?
  - BurningFrog 6y ago
    Sorry, we're not hiring for that role :) There are many places were his skills would be very appreciated. The hard part may be to find them.
temporallobe 6y ago
You need both. And in my experience it’s rare that an engineer will have strong soft and hard skills. I have known exactly one person with that rare combination, and he has since started his own successful company. Unfortunately the smartest and most component engineers I have known have nearly always come across as being arrogant. They have a very solid grasp of their domain and a strong skillset, but they also expect everyone around them to be at their level and instantly follow everything they’re saying. These people sometimes even have disciples who follow the philosophy of arrogance and engage in gatekeeping. I have concluded that while this is not ideal, it’s often par for the course. Conversely, the best engineering leaders I have known (architects, tech leads, product owners, requirements analysts, etc.) have had really strong empathy and encouraged healthy debate while also making everyone’s input and analysis feel welcome and valued. Their technical skillset is not necessarily the strongest but they’ve usually been good generalists who could talk intelligently about something at a high level without having to know the technical details. These people have also been able to take those arrogant engineers and have gotten them to successfully collaborate with everyone from the junior devs up to management. A good tech leader really is just a good mediator.
- xyzzy_plugh 6y ago
  > Unfortunately the smartest and most component engineers I have known have nearly always come across as being arrogant. Funny, in my experience these aren't competent engineers so much as dangerous. Engineers who worship at the altar of complexity and get enraged if you point out their mistakes. The smartest and most competent engineers I have ever known have nearly always been furries.

halfmatthalfcat 6y ago

That's fair but my perspective as a lowly engineer was I wanted a role model to learn from and help upskill my career. My people manager managers never had the skills to provide me with any growth, the only reason I'm at where I am today is because I decided I wanted to level up and taught myself outside of work. It's my goal as a manager to be that manager that I never had and lead by example for my reports technically in addition to the expected soft skills of a traditional people manager.

blacktriangle 6y ago
The thing is that role model should not be your manager, it should be a senior developer. A good manager is not a role model to teach you, a good manager realizes the importance of lowly engineers having role models and creates a structured mentorship program to make sure that need is being met.
- halfmatthalfcat 6y ago
  I don't understand why managers cannot fulfill both roles though? The job of management isn't hard (I'm doing it). Outside of the project management responsibilities, there is a lot of time doing nothing. If I wasn't coding, as a manager, 80% of the time I would sit around doing nothing. I strongly believe that managers should be able to fulfill both roles but maybe it's just because I've been burned by so many managers in the past.
  - marcinzm 6y ago
    I've been a manager for a while and at best I get 20% time to code. With 8+ reports the weeks tends to break down into: * 20% for 1-on-1s and dealing with management level issues people bring up. * 20% spent on hiring * 20% on various status meetings (team, cross-team, with my boss, etc.) * 20% spent on pro-actively finding or solving issues before the explode. This includes networking with my counterparts in the rest of the org so I get information and build political capital.
    - Aeolun 6y ago
      20% on hiring with 8 reports?
      - pnut 6y ago
        Engineering manager's reports are team leads, so that's like 40-50 people probably. Plus any cross-discipline interviewing.
      - marcinzm 6y ago
        Startup so quickly growing team and less recruiting support. Stabler team in a large org would have less hiring but more meetings.
  - dimitrios1 6y ago
    >The job of management isn't hard (I'm doing it). Where do you work? Sign me up! I have hardly any time to code after weekly sprint-related ceremonies, 1:1's, cycle planning, and architecture and code reviews. The job of management, like the job of any developer, varies from company to company, and situation to situation. Thankfully, the people side of my job as a manager is easy right now, but only because the people I manage are reasonable people to work with, and well receptive to feedback. It was very difficult last year when I had to work through more delicate relationships between the employee and employer. As always, it comes down to people. It also sounds like the place you may be managing at may not be challenging enough for you. Perhaps it's time to make a change?
marcinzm 6y ago
A manager is only a role model if the promotion structure is Engineer->Manager. At most modern tech companies that is not the main promotion structure. It's Engineer->Senior Engineer->Staff Engineer->Etc. Engineering management is a different path you can choose just like you can become a product manager but it is not the expected path.
- halfmatthalfcat 6y ago
  I can't say I've ever been in a company where the path wasn't either: Engineer -> Senior -> Principal -> Staff -> Distinguished OR Engineer -> Senior? -> Manager -> Senior Manager -> Director In both scenarios though, they've been a more senior engineer.
  - scruple 6y ago
    I've seen people go from Engineer to Manager, skipping over, for want of better phrasing, the senior engineering ranks. In both cases it went poorly and a founders child was involved, indirectly at first and then later directly.
    - angrais 6y ago
      What do you mean a founders child was involved? Was that the person who skipped the senior rank?
      - scruple 6y ago
        One of the founders children was hired on to a low ranking managers team as an entry level Software Engineer. They were hired specifically by the low ranking manager and without the typical interview process. That low ranking manager, inside of a calendar year, became the director of an entirely new division in the engineering org. That division eventually went defunct, having never shipped a single product to production or having accomplished anything else of note. The other was a founders child being promoted from SE I or SE II into a middle management role. That also did not end well.
ska 6y ago
> ... as a lowly engineer was I wanted a role model to learn from and help upskill my career. There is no reason this has to be your manager. Your managers job was to understand that this was something you needed, and find a way to try and provide it for you; it's unfortunate that didn't happen for you. > It's my goal as a manager to be that manager Can I make a suggestion? As a manager it's important that you respond to what your team actually needs, rather than your perception of what you would have needed in their place. There are a number of ways to do this well, and a much larger number of ways to mess it up.
ska 6y ago
> I wanted a role model to learn from Another general comment on this theme. In my experience people making the engineer to manager transition typically need a mentor and guidance in management even more than they ever needed a technical mentor.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
kvutza 6y ago
I guess you talk about group leaders, not project managers. Group leaders are from developers, with added responsibilities (and that means with added work).

Zigurd 6y ago

Keeping current on coding, while not attempting to be the best coder in the building, is a key soft skill in terms of participating understanding, and evaluating technical decisions and problems. Empathy comes from placing yourself in the other person's shoes. This is also true for communicating enterprise-wide considerations to coding teams. They have to trust you not to blindly push senior management priorities. If you know the cost of both capital and tech debt, you are more likely to have represented the coding team and influenced decisions, and be able to communicate decisions effectively.

dimitrios1 6y ago
I am having a hard time understanding what you are saying, perhaps you could restate? Coding is not a soft skill, even if that is in a capacity where it's used ancillary to other tasks such as the ones you mentioned. I am glad you mentioned it, because communication and trust, on the flip side, are soft skills. You can foster trust through excellent communication and understanding Where the engineering manager does not excel in a particular area of expertise, he or she will defer to the ones that do. A good engineering manager knows their weaknesses, and how to ask for help. The good engineering manager will seek to gather understanding of the technical debts and use that to represent the coding team well. Again communicating those decisions effectively are orthogonal to that process (meaning you can communicate a poor decision effectively just as well as communicating a good decision effectively)

BurningFrog 6y ago

That's obviously a really great manager. I think they're also very rare. And that kind of personality/social skills is not something most people, especially engineers, have. I imagine someone with such skills went on to greater things?

dimitrios1 6y ago
We worked together at what I can only describe as a data collection meat grinder. One of those places that loves to say it's all about people one side of their mouth, and act completely contrary to that in the day to day when it comes to chasing revenue and growth. He was met with heavy resistance from senior level business directors because he actually put what the company said were their principles into practice every day. This burned him out a little bit, so he took a break, and is now looking. You hiring?
- BurningFrog 6y ago
  Sorry, we're not hiring for that role :) There are many places were his skills would be very appreciated. The hard part may be to find them.

temporallobe 6y ago

You need both. And in my experience it’s rare that an engineer will have strong soft and hard skills. I have known exactly one person with that rare combination, and he has since started his own successful company. Unfortunately the smartest and most component engineers I have known have nearly always come across as being arrogant. They have a very solid grasp of their domain and a strong skillset, but they also expect everyone around them to be at their level and instantly follow everything they’re saying. These people sometimes even have disciples who follow the philosophy of arrogance and engage in gatekeeping. I have concluded that while this is not ideal, it’s often par for the course. Conversely, the best engineering leaders I have known (architects, tech leads, product owners, requirements analysts, etc.) have had really strong empathy and encouraged healthy debate while also making everyone’s input and analysis feel welcome and valued. Their technical skillset is not necessarily the strongest but they’ve usually been good generalists who could talk intelligently about something at a high level without having to know the technical details. These people have also been able to take those arrogant engineers and have gotten them to successfully collaborate with everyone from the junior devs up to management. A good tech leader really is just a good mediator.

xyzzy_plugh 6y ago
> Unfortunately the smartest and most component engineers I have known have nearly always come across as being arrogant. Funny, in my experience these aren't competent engineers so much as dangerous. Engineers who worship at the altar of complexity and get enraged if you point out their mistakes. The smartest and most competent engineers I have ever known have nearly always been furries.