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That's kind of obvious, but we are just really stubborn about it for some arguably-good reasons. Consider gun registration. Gun owners are not, as a group, con

That's kind of obvious, but we are just really stubborn about it for some arguably-good reasons. Consider gun registration. Gun owners are not, as a group, considered to be at the cutting edge of technology. But even they understand intuitively that a database is the first step toward any policy that will threaten gun rights. And that brings the stubbornness: people want government, but don't necessarily want a super-effective government because it would be effective at both policies you agree with and policies that you don't.

ilaksh 6y ago
That's true to a degree. But I think it goes beyond that for many people. Many people are looking at the history (and present) of governments oppressing and taking military action against dissenting citizens (see Burma today, United States/Britain in the 1700s). It goes beyond "disagreeable policies". There are real events that lead people to be distrustful of government. Personally I think that not having trust in government and not allowing for an effective government because of that lack of trust is a critical problem. But it's not adequate to simply ignore the previous bad behavior of governments. There need to be some structural improvement to increase the credibility of trust.
- chmod600 6y ago
  Trust is a very valuable asset that can crumble very easily. What structural changes would you suggest?
XorNot 6y ago
That doesn't really follow though: the US is very good at restricting rights when it wants to without any need for tracking. You just make whatever it is illegal, make compliance a responsibility of the individual (think taxes), and heavily punish anyone found in breach. The US could eliminate whole classes of guns today by this simple measure. After the first 100 people are charged with felony possession after open carry demonstrating with their AR-15's, how many do you think you'd really see in public? From people with jobs and mortgages who can't afford a criminal record? When the police departments get given bonus pay per weapon destroyed? It won't be many. Making things illegal is easy, and stomping most of them out is easy. The database problem is more to do with positive policies where you're trying to give something to citizens, whether it's money or passage onto an airline.
- x3n0ph3n3 6y ago
  Most gun violence is gang violence, and the incentive model you are describing doesn't apply to those committing gang violence.
  - XorNot 6y ago
    I'm not talking about whether gun control should be carried out. Or if gun ownership is the source of America's societal ills. I'm talking about the reality that getting rid of a large proportion of anything by the government has never been an issue of having accurate records. Again: make it illegal, make compliance an individual responsibility, punish breaches heavily, (optional) incentivise law enforcement to find breaches
  - xirbeosbwo1234 6y ago
    >Most gun violence is gang violence I'm pretty sure this isn't true. The total number of people killed with guns in the US in 2011 was about 9900. See page 6 here: https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/hus11.pdf https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/hus11.pdf That year there were somewhere around 1800 gang homicides. See the bottom of this page: https://www.nationalgangcenter.gov/Survey-Analysis/Measuring-the-Extent-of-Gang-Problems https://www.nationalgangcenter.gov/Survey-Analysis/Measuring... Note that not all of those gang-related homicides involved guns. Note also that the methodology to describe a homicide as "gang-related" will tend to overestimate the rate of gang crime, since the most common methodology is to check whether anyone involved is a gang member even if the motive was not gang-related. See FAQ #5 here: https://www.nationalgangcenter.gov/About/FAQ#q5 https://www.nationalgangcenter.gov/About/FAQ#q5 I haven't done more than five minutes of reading, but the numbers I listed would have to be way off to make the majority of gun violence gang-related.
- inglor_cz 6y ago
  Tax evasion would be much easier in all-cash economy, regardless of punishments. Banks and their databases are an important resource in fighting tax evasion.
  - 6y ago
x3n0ph3n3 6y ago
> But even they understand intuitively that a database is the first step toward any policy that will threaten gun rights. It's not just, that. Having a database of guns and gun owners is goldmine for would-be thieves looking to score some firearms.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- inglor_cz 6y ago
  IDK why are you being downvoted. Databases leak all the time, private and public.
koolba 6y ago
In that specific example I can’t think of any good reason for the government to track who has which gun other than to (one day) take them away. And we all know that criminals are the ones that wouldn’t be in there at all.
- xyzzy123 6y ago
  There is certainly a hard core of criminals who go out of their way to get unregistered guns. But mostly there is not a bright line between "regular people" on one side and "criminals" on the other. Unregistered firearms don't completely negate the usefulness of keeping track of guns, in the same way that unregistered cars don't completely negate the value of having a car registration process. It's socially desirable to be able to investigate crimes involving guns, have some idea how many of what types exist and where, and to be able to restrict access to known firearms for specific individuals who might be having issues with violence or mental health. I think you could reasonably make the case that in the U.S. the cat is "so far out of the bag" that there's no point even trying, but in many other countries it's a useful system.
  - gumby 6y ago
    What is the value of having. A car registration process? A serious question. We don’t have mandatory bike registration. Is it just taxes? We do driving licenses have so much info unrelated to operating a motor vehicle?
    - xyzzy123 6y ago
      Car registration helps primarily by assigning vehicle ownership / plate issuance, but indirectly with insurance, taxes, inspections & maintenance logging, crash records, ticketing, tracking stolen cars and parts, and more. Cars are expensive, deadly and ubiquitous and much of the regulation around them was written in blood. When you write "bike" I'm not sure if you mean bicycle or motorcycle. Most places, motorcycles which will be driven on public roads do require registration. I expect that bicycles don't require registration because they don't kill as many people who are not the rider, so nobody has really called for it.
5cents 6y ago
Interesting! As a Scandinavian it's hard to imagine how any government can function effectively and properly without good records. Being able to read up-to-date, high-quality population statistics is wonderful, and also that researchers can get access to various records and link them. And I struggle to see how to expect the government/public services to take care of me, protect me and provide me good services if it didn't know who I am and what threats/problems there are in the society
- chmod600 6y ago
  Governments existed before electronic databases. Databases do increase effectiveness, but effective government is not without potential downsides. The government can be effective at helping you or oppressing you. Some kinds of databases intuitively seem weighted more toward one end than than the other. Most databases are a gray area that could be used for either. And a lot depends on trust, too. Perhaps you simply trust your government more, and perhaps with good reason.

ilaksh 6y ago

That's true to a degree. But I think it goes beyond that for many people. Many people are looking at the history (and present) of governments oppressing and taking military action against dissenting citizens (see Burma today, United States/Britain in the 1700s). It goes beyond "disagreeable policies". There are real events that lead people to be distrustful of government. Personally I think that not having trust in government and not allowing for an effective government because of that lack of trust is a critical problem. But it's not adequate to simply ignore the previous bad behavior of governments. There need to be some structural improvement to increase the credibility of trust.

chmod600 6y ago
Trust is a very valuable asset that can crumble very easily. What structural changes would you suggest?

XorNot 6y ago

That doesn't really follow though: the US is very good at restricting rights when it wants to without any need for tracking. You just make whatever it is illegal, make compliance a responsibility of the individual (think taxes), and heavily punish anyone found in breach. The US could eliminate whole classes of guns today by this simple measure. After the first 100 people are charged with felony possession after open carry demonstrating with their AR-15's, how many do you think you'd really see in public? From people with jobs and mortgages who can't afford a criminal record? When the police departments get given bonus pay per weapon destroyed? It won't be many. Making things illegal is easy, and stomping most of them out is easy. The database problem is more to do with positive policies where you're trying to give something to citizens, whether it's money or passage onto an airline.

x3n0ph3n3 6y ago
Most gun violence is gang violence, and the incentive model you are describing doesn't apply to those committing gang violence.
- XorNot 6y ago
  I'm not talking about whether gun control should be carried out. Or if gun ownership is the source of America's societal ills. I'm talking about the reality that getting rid of a large proportion of anything by the government has never been an issue of having accurate records. Again: make it illegal, make compliance an individual responsibility, punish breaches heavily, (optional) incentivise law enforcement to find breaches
- xirbeosbwo1234 6y ago
  >Most gun violence is gang violence I'm pretty sure this isn't true. The total number of people killed with guns in the US in 2011 was about 9900. See page 6 here: https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/hus11.pdf https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/hus11.pdf That year there were somewhere around 1800 gang homicides. See the bottom of this page: https://www.nationalgangcenter.gov/Survey-Analysis/Measuring-the-Extent-of-Gang-Problems https://www.nationalgangcenter.gov/Survey-Analysis/Measuring... Note that not all of those gang-related homicides involved guns. Note also that the methodology to describe a homicide as "gang-related" will tend to overestimate the rate of gang crime, since the most common methodology is to check whether anyone involved is a gang member even if the motive was not gang-related. See FAQ #5 here: https://www.nationalgangcenter.gov/About/FAQ#q5 https://www.nationalgangcenter.gov/About/FAQ#q5 I haven't done more than five minutes of reading, but the numbers I listed would have to be way off to make the majority of gun violence gang-related.
inglor_cz 6y ago
Tax evasion would be much easier in all-cash economy, regardless of punishments. Banks and their databases are an important resource in fighting tax evasion.
- 6y ago

x3n0ph3n3 6y ago

> But even they understand intuitively that a database is the first step toward any policy that will threaten gun rights. It's not just, that. Having a database of guns and gun owners is goldmine for would-be thieves looking to score some firearms.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
inglor_cz 6y ago
IDK why are you being downvoted. Databases leak all the time, private and public.

koolba 6y ago

In that specific example I can’t think of any good reason for the government to track who has which gun other than to (one day) take them away. And we all know that criminals are the ones that wouldn’t be in there at all.

xyzzy123 6y ago
There is certainly a hard core of criminals who go out of their way to get unregistered guns. But mostly there is not a bright line between "regular people" on one side and "criminals" on the other. Unregistered firearms don't completely negate the usefulness of keeping track of guns, in the same way that unregistered cars don't completely negate the value of having a car registration process. It's socially desirable to be able to investigate crimes involving guns, have some idea how many of what types exist and where, and to be able to restrict access to known firearms for specific individuals who might be having issues with violence or mental health. I think you could reasonably make the case that in the U.S. the cat is "so far out of the bag" that there's no point even trying, but in many other countries it's a useful system.
- gumby 6y ago
  What is the value of having. A car registration process? A serious question. We don’t have mandatory bike registration. Is it just taxes? We do driving licenses have so much info unrelated to operating a motor vehicle?
  - xyzzy123 6y ago
    Car registration helps primarily by assigning vehicle ownership / plate issuance, but indirectly with insurance, taxes, inspections & maintenance logging, crash records, ticketing, tracking stolen cars and parts, and more. Cars are expensive, deadly and ubiquitous and much of the regulation around them was written in blood. When you write "bike" I'm not sure if you mean bicycle or motorcycle. Most places, motorcycles which will be driven on public roads do require registration. I expect that bicycles don't require registration because they don't kill as many people who are not the rider, so nobody has really called for it.

5cents 6y ago

Interesting! As a Scandinavian it's hard to imagine how any government can function effectively and properly without good records. Being able to read up-to-date, high-quality population statistics is wonderful, and also that researchers can get access to various records and link them. And I struggle to see how to expect the government/public services to take care of me, protect me and provide me good services if it didn't know who I am and what threats/problems there are in the society

chmod600 6y ago
Governments existed before electronic databases. Databases do increase effectiveness, but effective government is not without potential downsides. The government can be effective at helping you or oppressing you. Some kinds of databases intuitively seem weighted more toward one end than than the other. Most databases are a gray area that could be used for either. And a lot depends on trust, too. Perhaps you simply trust your government more, and perhaps with good reason.