6 ms·
99.9% of the people throwing around the word fascist today have little to no understanding of what that political ideology means. The exact same situation happ
by ceilingcorner 6y ago
99.9% of the people throwing around the word fascist today have little to no understanding of what that political ideology means.
The exact same situation happens with the word communist, excerpt with the roles reversed. Both are symptoms of falling educational levels, lack of historical knowledge, and an increasing drive to dehumanize and polarize the opposition.
- potta_coffee 6y agoI don't understand what's controversial about your statement or why it's being downvoted.
- ahepp 6y agoWell, in the case of this particular piece, the very first lines are the author explaining that he was a member of the youth wing of the Italian fascist party. So it seems to me a strange context to complain about people who talk about fascism without knowing what it is.
- theptip 6y agoPerhaps the parent was referring to the GP commenter's > the list gets wielded in a way to stick the 'fascist' label on someone, and not much else. rather than throwing shade on Eco's specific usage. For what it's worth I agree with the sentiment that most people using the word "fascist" couldn't give you an accurate definition of the original meaning of the term. You could argue that there's a new word "fascist*" that means "authoritarian and mean", but when making specific historical reference to the original term "fascist" it's sometimes important to strictly use the original definition (inasmuch as there was a strict original definition; part of Eco's thesis I think is that Fascism has always been somewhat amorphous). For example if you're comparing and contrasting the rise of the Nazi party in Germany to modern Trumpism, or making a claim about historical communist systems of governments leading to tyranny, then you need readers to interpret you as using "fascist" or "communist" (no *). If you're trying to get your tribe riled up on cable news then you are probably using "fascist*" or "communist*". I think it's OK to rail against people mis-using "fascist*", but I think it's about as futile as complaining about people mis-using the words "literally" or "comprised of".
- avereveard 6y agowith the 99.9% of people opinions are wrong but mine it's the perfect instance of "everyone else is wrong but me"
- frenchy 6y agoIf 99.9% of people missunderstand what a word means, then maybe it doesn't really mean what you think it does, or has no clear meaning at all. Webster didn't get his dictionary from a discrete meeting with some cave spirit.
- ceilingcorner 6y agoConsidering that the label of fascism is usually being used with reference the the Nazis (ironically almost never to the actual Italian fascists themselves - a symptom of the historical ignorance I mentioned), I’m gonna say yes, the word has a specific meaning.
- RIMR 6y agoYou say "actual Italian fascists" as if the Nazi party wasn't "actually fascist". I would say it's pretty clear that you're the one with the poor understanding of fascism.
- ceilingcorner 6y agoI said actual Italian fascists because... that’s where the word came from. They invented it. The Nazis copied many ideas from Mussolini, who was in power for a decade or so before the Nazis. Apparently historical facts are downvoted now?
- dumb_troll 6y agoI'd suggest reading the article before going 2012 era TCOT
- n4r9 6y agoI don't down vote on here but if I were to guess, it's not for stating facts, but for asserting your rigid interpretation of those facts as if it were the only obvious conclusion.
- nytgop77 6y ago
- red-montaigne 6y agoOrwell was commenting on this decades ago. Any government you like is a "democracy," any government you don't like is fascist or communist. "Politics and the English Language" is a masterpiece. On the other hand, I do think an unsettling number of Americans would be totally fine ruling by authority and force, as long as the person in charge was from their own political party. So as far as that goes the label is appropriate.
- RIMR 6y agoIf only 0.1% of people agree with your definition of fascism, maybe you're the one with the incorrect definition.
- ceilingcorner 6y agoI’m relying on the definition from dictionaries and historians, not the collective ignorance of the mob. Truth isn’t a matter of upvotes.
- Cederfjard 6y agofascism noun fas· cism | \ ˈfa-ˌshi-zəm also ˈfa-ˌsi- \ Definition of fascism 1 often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition 2 : a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fascism https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fascism Does the definition of the 99.9% not fit in with that? As a glib riposte to your last statement: Truth may not be a matter of upvotes, but language definitely is.
- ceilingcorner 6y agoAbsolutely. From my reading, it’s being used to describe everyone from anti-government libertarians to rationalists, to nationalists to people who think religion is an important part of civic society. I’d like to point out the complete absurdity of describing those wanting smaller government as fascists, but alas, here we are. As I said in another comment, it’s become a byword for “person with right wing opinions that I disagree with.”
- 13415 6y agoYou primarily come across as someone who hasn't read Eco's influential essay or doesn't want to talk about it and instead makes up various straw man arguments. Eco describes fascism very well, based on personal experience with it and a deep knowledge of its origins and appearances.
- ahepp 6y agoCollected from your various comments in this subthread: >99.9% of the people throwing around the word fascist today have little to no understanding of what that political ideology means. The author explains in the first line of the article, that he was a member of the fascist youth wing. Do you really think he doesn't know what it is? If you think he doesn't, I'd certainly be interested in hearing why. >I’m relying on the definition from dictionaries and historians The author is a historian. >Considering that the label of fascism is usually being used with reference the the Nazis (ironically almost never to the actual Italian fascists themselves - a symptom of the historical ignorance I mentioned), I’m gonna say yes, the word has a specific meaning. The author is Italian, so again it seems strange to accuse him of conflating Nazism with Italian fascism. Especially because the article compares the two in detail.
- ceilingcorner 6y agoThis essay is from 25 years ago. I was referring to people today.
- RIMR 6y agoIt sounds to me like you're complaining that people correctly call the Nazi party "fascist", and that you seem suspiciously personally invested in this narrative...
- ceilingcorner 6y agoSigh. One can’t even point out historical facts without being accused of being a Nazi. The level of discourse really has fallen here. I merely said it was ironic that people calling others fascists don’t usually refer to the group who invented the concept.
- RIMR 6y agoJust like how Facebook isn't a social media website, since MySpace Tom already "invented the concept". Do I have your logic down right? What kind of argument is this, exactly? Nazis were Fascists in an objective, demonstrable way. That's not something that's up for debate, and it is extremely suspicious for anyone to attempt to correct the record on this. It's like people who are "skeptical" of the holocaust. That's not skepticism, it's antisemitism, because the Holocaust isn't up for debate. There are millions of pieces of evidence that it occurred to the degree we understand it to have occurred, just as there are millions of pieces of evidence that the Nazi party was fascist. Italians may have "invented" fascism (mostly just coined the term), but they were not historically unique, and they certainly aren't the only fascist movement ever to have occurred. The arguments you make sound like the kind of cryptofascist politics that come out of white nationalist groups that aim to normalize modern day right-wing extremism. If you don't want to get grouped together with those people, consider not talking exactly like they do about far-right nationalism and authoritarianism
- cjohansson 6y agoI agree, I think the word has lost it's instrumental value today, I read lately about "Thomas the Tank Engine & Friends" are fascist and that people who believe in truth "realism is a fascist" is fascist. The discourse today is a discourse of accusing people of things to exclude them from discussions