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The right is absolutely not anti-government. They're just against the use of government to disrupt existing hierarchies or interfere with tradition. For concre

by api 6y ago

The right is absolutely not anti-government. They're just against the use of government to disrupt existing hierarchies or interfere with tradition. For concrete proof look at Federal deficits and spending under right and left wing administrations, or the corresponding growth in the size and scope of government. There is at best no difference, and in a few cases government actually shrank in nominal terms under more left-leaning administrations. The left believes we need government for pragmatic reasons, but most of them could be sold on the idea of giving up state power if alternative mechanisms to achieve their goals could be found and demonstrated to work in real life. The right on the other hand worships hierarchy and authority as a good in and of itself and almost deifies the state and its hierarchy as a manifestation of a divine order. The right would never let go of the state even if it were no longer needed, for doing so would mean there would be no mechanism for enforcement of divinely ordained hierarchy. (This is why libertarians are neither left nor right.)

heavyset_go 6y ago
> (This is why libertarians are neither left nor right.) I'd have to say that the Americans that adopted the libertarian label are on the right, but the original anarchists for whom the term 'libertarian' was coined were on the left. That dichotomy is where the labels right-libertarian[1] and left-libertarian[2] were derived. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-libertarianism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-libertarianism [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-libertarianism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-libertarianism
- api 6y ago
  I mostly agree. A lot of American libertarianism also comes via Ayn Rand, whom I consider to be more of a liberal heretic than a conservative. "Racism is the lowest form of collectivism." - Ayn Rand I've read Randian / Marxist where there is broad agreement as to many humanistic goals. There's just a deep disagreement about how best to get there. (I'm not a Randian, though I do think she's worth reading and had some valid points about a number of things.) In the past few years alt-right types have started trying to bogart the term libertarian as part of their broad recruitment efforts. I no longer use the term much for that reason. I did back when words meant things.
  - heavyset_go 6y ago
    > In the past few years alt-right types have started trying to bogart the term libertarian as part of their broad recruitment efforts. I was part of the effort to rid r/Libertarian of the literal fascists that took over the sub a couple of years ago. It is apparently really easy to turn an Ayn Rand libertarian into a full blown fascist. At the heart of it, and to touch back on your previous points, is that right-libertarians worship hierarchy as much as their right-wing peers do. Yes, they seem to have disdain for political hierarchies, but they love market-created hierarchies. They also have no problem using state violence to enforce those hierarchies, either, so long as the state is shooting at people to protect private property. It doesn't take much to push right-libertarians into supporting the use of state violence in a very Hoppean[1] manner, either. Most right-libertarians view anyone to the left of them as an existential threat, so it isn't hard to get them to support Pinochet's helicopter rides[2] for "communists" and other perceived threats from the left. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans-Hermann_Hoppe#Expulsion_of_homosexuals_and_political_dissidents https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans-Hermann_Hoppe#Expulsion_o... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_flights https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_flights
    - jonathankoren 6y ago
      > I was part of the effort to rid r/Libertarian of the literal fascists that took over the sub a couple of years ago. It is apparently really easy to turn an Ayn Rand libertarian into a full blown fascist. That's because Ayn Rand's ideas are juvenile. They boil down to "You're special, and They are jealous of your specialness, and so keep you down." (See Fountain Head. See Atlas Shrugged.) This same idea that everything bad that happens to you because a bunch of plebes that can't stand you because you're better than them. This folds directly into to fascism's doctrine of the weak, but all oppressive scapegoat. The specifics of the scapegoat change according to time and place, but the formula remains the same.
- scythe 6y ago
  >That dichotomy is where the labels right-libertarian[1] and left-libertarian[2] were derived. This is not quite accurate. The descendants of anti-authoritarian radical labor-pricing (communist, etc) theorists are generally now called libertarian socialist or simply anarchist. The term left-libertarian is more often used for derivatives of Georgism (Steiner-Vallentyne, etc) and frameworks promoting employee ownership and union bargaining power within an essentially capitalist economy (mutualism, etc). It might be more appropriately called "center-libertarian", although the bevy of unconventional ideas therein is difficult to reconcile as "center-" anything. Some libertarian socialists do call themselves "left-libertarian" but more often they seem to reject being lumped in with people who like capitalism (at least a little).

by api 6y ago

heavyset_go 6y ago

> (This is why libertarians are neither left nor right.) I'd have to say that the Americans that adopted the libertarian label are on the right, but the original anarchists for whom the term 'libertarian' was coined were on the left. That dichotomy is where the labels right-libertarian[1] and left-libertarian[2] were derived. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-libertarianism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-libertarianism [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-libertarianism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-libertarianism

api 6y ago
I mostly agree. A lot of American libertarianism also comes via Ayn Rand, whom I consider to be more of a liberal heretic than a conservative. "Racism is the lowest form of collectivism." - Ayn Rand I've read Randian / Marxist where there is broad agreement as to many humanistic goals. There's just a deep disagreement about how best to get there. (I'm not a Randian, though I do think she's worth reading and had some valid points about a number of things.) In the past few years alt-right types have started trying to bogart the term libertarian as part of their broad recruitment efforts. I no longer use the term much for that reason. I did back when words meant things.
- heavyset_go 6y ago
  > In the past few years alt-right types have started trying to bogart the term libertarian as part of their broad recruitment efforts. I was part of the effort to rid r/Libertarian of the literal fascists that took over the sub a couple of years ago. It is apparently really easy to turn an Ayn Rand libertarian into a full blown fascist. At the heart of it, and to touch back on your previous points, is that right-libertarians worship hierarchy as much as their right-wing peers do. Yes, they seem to have disdain for political hierarchies, but they love market-created hierarchies. They also have no problem using state violence to enforce those hierarchies, either, so long as the state is shooting at people to protect private property. It doesn't take much to push right-libertarians into supporting the use of state violence in a very Hoppean[1] manner, either. Most right-libertarians view anyone to the left of them as an existential threat, so it isn't hard to get them to support Pinochet's helicopter rides[2] for "communists" and other perceived threats from the left. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans-Hermann_Hoppe#Expulsion_of_homosexuals_and_political_dissidents https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans-Hermann_Hoppe#Expulsion_o... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_flights https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_flights
  - jonathankoren 6y ago
    > I was part of the effort to rid r/Libertarian of the literal fascists that took over the sub a couple of years ago. It is apparently really easy to turn an Ayn Rand libertarian into a full blown fascist. That's because Ayn Rand's ideas are juvenile. They boil down to "You're special, and They are jealous of your specialness, and so keep you down." (See Fountain Head. See Atlas Shrugged.) This same idea that everything bad that happens to you because a bunch of plebes that can't stand you because you're better than them. This folds directly into to fascism's doctrine of the weak, but all oppressive scapegoat. The specifics of the scapegoat change according to time and place, but the formula remains the same.
scythe 6y ago
>That dichotomy is where the labels right-libertarian[1] and left-libertarian[2] were derived. This is not quite accurate. The descendants of anti-authoritarian radical labor-pricing (communist, etc) theorists are generally now called libertarian socialist or simply anarchist. The term left-libertarian is more often used for derivatives of Georgism (Steiner-Vallentyne, etc) and frameworks promoting employee ownership and union bargaining power within an essentially capitalist economy (mutualism, etc). It might be more appropriately called "center-libertarian", although the bevy of unconventional ideas therein is difficult to reconcile as "center-" anything. Some libertarian socialists do call themselves "left-libertarian" but more often they seem to reject being lumped in with people who like capitalism (at least a little).