28 ms·

Yeah, it is horrifying to think about how much air pollution we inflict upon ourselves. It's very hard to stop even in a two-person household, because so many o

Yeah, it is horrifying to think about how much air pollution we inflict upon ourselves. It's very hard to stop even in a two-person household, because so many of the "products" most people in the Western world are used to buying and using since an early age are violators. I am blessed with being quite sensitive to most of them, so it's an endless struggle with partners and cohabitants. Basically anything bought new has it: furniture, clothes, cars, anything plastic, dyed, glued, particleboard. "Cleaning" products: sprays, detergents, most "soaps", shampoos, creams, conditioners, have this type of crap in them. Even most stuff which claims to be "eco-friendly" is bullshit, and has all the same crap in it if you look at the ingredients. And it feels like online there is a whole army of "rational scientific defenders" ready to jump into action anytime I mention it. It feels like there is a whole playbook for discrediting this type of comment, and calling into question how "scientific" it is, etc.

metalliqaz 6y ago
that's because you call it "this stuff" and bundle everything from new cars to soap into the same category. So you're just sensitive to every industrial material? it's hard to take seriously.
- 4eor0 6y ago
  Is it hard to take pollen allergies from dozens of different plants seriously? How about dust and smoke? How can someone be allergic to both! The temerity. It’s less about chemistry of the materials, more about the sensitivity of the squishy, arbitrary human body.
  - forgotmypw17 6y ago
    Pollen I don't avoid, because it's not a new substance. "Dust" allergies often have to do with the substances which are on the dust, which is covered above. Smoke is certainly not good for you. This squishy arbitrary human body is the only one I've got for today, so I avoid whatever I think may harm it, even if there is no dots on the i's and crosses on the t's with regards to scientific proof. If you look at the history of teflon, plastics, cigarettes, VOCs, synthetic food ingredients, you'll see that this strategy would have served a human well in the past, and it's the best one I can think of to follow for the foreseeable future.
    - tptacek 6y ago
      One problem with this kind of reasoning is that it's the same thing that the people with the 5G allergies say. It's tricky because VOCs probably are very bad for us, so there's a kernel of truth in it, but you don't want to balance your entire house on a single kernel, if that makes sense.
      - danlugo92 6y ago
        Jesus Christ comparing allergies to chemicals to 5G conspiracy theories, everyone's a paranoid conspiracy theorist now :shrug
      - codr7 6y ago
        How about judging each case on its merits rather than shoving them all in the conspiracy box to feel better?
        tptacek 6y ago
        I agree that's how we should do it, and think we are both making the same critique.
- forgotmypw17 6y ago
  Well, VOCs are in almost all new products on the market...
- e7fyeuuerg 6y ago
  Reading between the lines they're that room mate who harasses you over their grievance every day while feining politeness. I'd rather move to a longer commute than live with someone like this.
  - forgotmypw17 6y ago
    Think what you will, I've converted several households to only use Dr. Bronner's and be generally clean of VOC pollutants. Sure, it's fucking annoying when someone's making you change the ways you've been settling into for decades, and it's also the truth, and a fight worth fighting, in my opinion. It's also easier than you think to change these habits.
    - e7fyeuuerg 6y ago
      Thankyou for demonstrating my point.
      - forgotmypw17 6y ago
        What is your point? That I shouldn't communicate to people I'm close with about about harm they're doing to themselves and myself and help them change their ways?
      - LargoLasskhyfv 6y ago
        Think of the kitties! It's good for them too!
    - NickBusey 6y ago
      You mean the same Dr. Bronner's who's label is completely covered with religious insanity? Thanks, but I think I'll pass on supporting such a company. Edit: Link to the full text for those who feel the need to down vote my shopping preferences. http://dev.null.org/psychoceramics/collection/bronner.html http://dev.null.org/psychoceramics/collection/bronner.html
      - forgotmypw17 6y ago
- LargoLasskhyfv 6y ago
  It IS the same category when it makes you suffer. Be it sneezes, running nose, coughing, swelling throat, burning eyes, sometimes itching skin, feeling unwell in general after being in contact with or near that stuff. Maybe our bodies have different tresholds for exposure to that stuff, and after oversaturating them for some time, there is no buffer available anymore? Resulting in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_chemical_sensitivity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_chemical_sensitivity
  - forgotmypw17 6y ago
    I call it the canary system. Some people are more sensitive than others, but we're all being harmed with it. For my part, I pay attention to what others are sensitive to and avoid it as well. If someone else has trouble coping with a substance but I'm "fine", that probably means that underneath my constituents are still struggling to deal with it and just not telling me.
    - ramblerman 6y ago
      Ssome people are allergic to peanuts, doesn't seem like a well grounded theory.
      - pmoleri 6y ago
        Peanut, Egg, and Milk protein (CMPA) allergies are common in babies. My understanding is that the digestive system is not mature enough to process them, so it rejects them. Some of these allergies develop even while breast fed (baby colic). I take that some allergies stick once developed. But you should consider that something that creates an allergy response in a baby may be not harmful at all for an adult. And sometimes, once the allergy is triggered it sticks.
        lotsofpulp 6y ago
        I wonder why they weren't common 30 years ago. Not a single person in my entire family from my generation and before has a single allergy, nor was it ever a big thing in school I attended in various US states in the 90s and early 00s. It's like between the time I went to college and my own kids started school, they exploded and now all of the sudden a PB&J sandwich isn't allowed in school. That would have been unfathomable to me in my youth.
- cptskippy 6y ago
  > "this stuff" Is it less hard to take seriously when the proper term is utilized? Volatile Organic Compounds (a.k.a. VOCs) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volatile_organic_compound https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volatile_organic_compound
- forgotmypw17 6y ago
  > So you're just sensitive to every industrial material? it's hard to take seriously. Our bodies are essentially "legacy code" that's been evolving not for a decade or two, but for millions of years. If you've ever maintained an old software system, you know that old-tried-and-true inputs are probably good, but trying anything previously untested may cause unpredictable issues. I look at any new substance which my ancestors haven't encountered (and been selected for tolerating) as basically alpha testing, which I'd rather avoid with my irreplaceable hardware-software installation.
  - tptacek 6y ago
    In this thread, you've managed to derive axiomatically a theory of toxicity in which peanuts are suspicious because they trigger allergies, which implies our immune systems see something wrong with them. I feel like a grain of salt (if our systems can tolerate it) would do us well on this thread.
- varelse 6y ago
  So I have an allergy to Aloe. And it got blind tested one night when I slept on a friend's floor and woke up with a rash 100% unaware he used his Aloe plant right where I slept. I also have whatever the hell the MSG allergy is, though obviously it isn't to pure MSG because they can't reproduce it with pure MSG (from which they conclude it doesn't exist), but if someone wants to throw money at figuring out its root cause from some sort of breakdown product or adulterant that travels with commercially produced MSG, I'm happy to be the guinea pig. The last time it hit, at a Chinese restaurant in SF, the left side of my body was nearly paralyzed. It is bizarre whatever it actually is. And the number of you-know-whats I give about randos taking it seriously or not is precisely zero. A former co-worker would projectile vomit if exposed to avocado. I saw that get evaluated blind as well.
  - SamoyedFurFluff 6y ago
    If you’re curious about the MSG sensitivity I recommend trying other foods that are high in MSG and looking for similar sensitivities to foods like tomatoes, snack foods, and meat seasoning mixes, and condiments. If you don’t have sensitivities to those, it may be something else that’s causing the issue, like ginger, soy sauce, oyster sauce, etc.
    - srg0 6y ago
      Actually, in case of MSG, it's easier to try it directly, in chemically pure form.
      - varelse 6y ago
        I'm pretty sure it's not reactant grade MSG. But I wonder about breakdown products and adulterants that travel with kitchen-grade MSG.
  - dialamac 6y ago
    > The last time it hit, at a Chinese restaurant in SF, Not to not take it seriously, but isn’t there a lot more stuff in American Chinese food other than MSG? Like of the 1000s of chemical substances that would be in a plate of Chinese food, why of all places would that be where you would isolate an MSG allergy? > or adulterant that travels with commercially produced MSG Then that wouldn’t be an MSG allergy. Oats are gluten free but celiacs have difficulty with them, not because of the oats but because of contamination.. we wouldn’t say they have an oat allergy though.
- code_duck 6y ago
  I have serious problems with many of the same chemicals as GP. Well I understand different ones are harmful or not in theory, I only know what I react to. It's almost uniformly products to which artificial fragrances are added intentionally, or exhaust that's known to be harmful such as diesel and gasoline. I only have issues with certain natural fragrances (essential oils) with extended exposure or large amounts. Most likely it's members of several large categories that I react to. Could be VOCs, phthalates, teflon relatives, and synthetic fragrance compounds. Like gluten intolerance, one of the difficult things about reacting negatively to common consumer products is the number of people who refuse to believe it's a real problem.
- briefcomment 6y ago
  From personal experience, once you become sensitized, you become sensitive to literally anything synthetic.
rhizome 6y ago
It's like my brother says when there's a food or candy that doesn't taste the same as when we were kids: "they took the cancer out of it." Items that are no longer on the market had to remove so much cancer from their ingredients that it wasn't the same anymore, so they take it off the market. They say "regulations are written in blood," which makes you wonder what "new car smell" was composed of 50 years ago.
- cptskippy 6y ago
  I think it's actually the opposite. They put the cancer in it by swapping out expensive ingredients like sugar and fat for high fructose corn syrup and palm kernel oil. Evey time you see the "same great taste" or "new formula" on a box it means they've re-engineered it to cut costs by substituting ingredients, usually for some engineered compound that's cheaper or more shelf stable. Hershey's chocolate is now just rancid swill that just tastes of sugar with a hint of vomit.
  - souprock 6y ago
    Hershey's chocolate was like that on day 1, about 120 years ago, because they wanted to use milk without having to keep the supply refrigerated. Lipolysis of the milk fat produces butyric acid, which does taste a bit like vomit or parmesan cheese. People got addicted to the taste, so today the flavor is intentional. Some companies, targeting the American market, even add butyric acid to mimic the Hershey's taste.
    - cptskippy 6y ago
      That's interesting. I don't recall it being quite so bad 30 years ago.
  - Spivak 6y ago
    Of all the things to point out in commercial food production you chose basically the two most benign things. Swapping refined sugar for HFCS 55 (the most common type) is basically an even trade sans some extra water content in the syrup and palm kernel oil is just saturated fat but sourced from a plant instead of animals. I don’t think anyone is gonna argue that a high sugar and saturated fat diet is healthy but no worse than the same things sourced from other places. In an alternative universe palm oil and corn syrup would have been the standard and people would complain about the switch to lard and white sugar.
pfortuny 6y ago
You are right. However, imagine a world in which you sleep with a log-fire burning...
cptskippy 6y ago
The scary part is that you become desensitized to VOCs the more you're exposed and people willingly increase their exposure by using air fresheners, scented candles, fabric softeners, and incense burners. It gets to the point where they can't even smell moderate amounts. My partner has severe allergies and will break out in hives when exposed to many fragrances so we've cut them out of everything. We avoid most cleaning products and stick to water, salt, baking soda, vinegar, and peroxide for most household cleaning. My MIL is very desensitized to fragrances and my partner has asked her on multiple occasions not to "freshen up" the house before we visit. My MIL swears up and down that she doesn't but the moment you walk in the door it's like a punch in the face. My partner unfortunately will break out in hives and immediately becomes congested.
- cmckn 6y ago
  Shout out to vinegar! The huge jugs of "cleaning vinegar" changed my life a couple years ago. I still use diluted bleach for the bathroom every once in a while, but vinegar is sufficient for almost everything day-to-day. And it's so much cheaper than most "cleansers".
  - cptskippy 6y ago
    Peroxide is a surprisingly good stain and odor remover. I prefer it to vinegar because it doesn't have a pungent odor that masks the odor you're trying to get rid of. But yes vinegar is awesome. It's fantastic at water stains like nothing else.
  - KozmoNau7 6y ago
    Acetic acid also works great as fabric softener, and it works against limescale in the washing machine. Anecdotally it also keeps colors vibrant.
- briefcomment 6y ago
  Having your relatives and friends finally take you seriously is such a relief when you're dealing with MCS.
code_duck 6y ago
I have very serious problems with fragrance chemicals and some VOCs also. It slowly emerged over time in my twenties, well at the same time I was also experiencing what I now know is undiagnosed celiac disease. I've gone through times where almost anything made out of plastic and most indoor furniture made me feel sick, but these days it's mainly just artificial fragrances. Shampoo, conditioner, air freshener, carpet cleaners, garbage bags, dish soap, incense, laundry soap, pesticides, dryer sheets, and so on. I have to use all of these in special unscented versions and try to get any roommates to do so as well. Some are difficult to avoid in public, other people's clothes and hair, fumes coming from laundry vents outdoors, or areas where large amounts of these products are stored such as groceries and hardware stores. The distancing and masks from covid have helped a bit, plus I'm staying home more which is a safe place. This is a problem that's been somewhat peripheral to my other health problems, but has been very disruptive for me. in terms of interpersonal relationships, maybe even worse than type 1 diabetes or celiac because it can make it uncomfortable to get near other people physically, either for a hug or to be in their house or car. Having to convince girlfriends to change hair products has been a major source of stress, too. There are times when I've been forced to be around people who use typical fragrances products on a visit, or at a hotel, and that's difficult. I've tried to look into what health problems could be related to this. There is a syndrome that used to be called MCS (Multiple Chemical Sensitivity) and is now called TILT (Toxicant Induced Loss of Tolerance). Mainly I have found people with Multiple Sclerosis and an immune disorder called MAST cell activation. I have celiac and type 1 diabetes, which are very closely related to MS, so it makes sense. This is the sort of thing that's very difficult to work on with doctors, and it seems likely the best treatment currently available is like an allergy - avoid the triggers.
hh3k0 6y ago
> "Cleaning" products: sprays, detergents, most "soaps", shampoos, creams, conditioners, have this type of crap in them. Yeah, that's awful stuff. Your partners and cohabitants should be grateful that you're somewhat of a canary in a coalmine for them: > Regular use of cleaning sprays has an impact on lung health comparable with smoking a pack of cigarettes every day, according to a new study. https://www.atsjournals.org/doi/full/10.1164/rccm.201706-1311OC https://www.atsjournals.org/doi/full/10.1164/rccm.201706-131...
raws 6y ago
Do you know www.ewg.org/skin deep Do they do a good job? How do you take care of this for yourself?
- forgotmypw17 6y ago
  I don't use anything besides Bronner's, and I use that sparingly. I haven't applied soap to any parts of myself except my hands for several years. My skin is in better shape than it ever has been, and I hear similar results from others who follow this path. I didn't come up with it myself, someone else shared their experience with me. It takes a week or two for the oil production to balance out. Our skin oils serve as protective layer, and also as the perfect "soap" for washing with water. When you remove them with soap, the skin freaks out and starts compensating.
  - raws 6y ago
    Ok thanks! I've seen that product and was just wondering what it was.
trophycase 6y ago
I know, I don't get it. People's laundry steam is pumped out of their basements and when I walk around the city in the wintertime you get an overwhelming scent of unpleasant laundry fragrance every now and then. Some friends of mine had their carpet replaced a month or two ago and there was incredible offgassing. I got an absolutely terrible headache accompanied with nausea after 2 hours but they all seemed to be sitting there inhaling it just fine. I couldn't believe it. I'm just saying "how can you guys handle this?" Dishsoaps too, I find the Dawn dish soap scent absolutely repulsing, mostly because of poor associations with 3 month old sponges, freezing cold houses, and mildewy sinks from college. I don't know how anyone stomachs the stuff. The smells are so "artificial" in the sense that they are one note, they don't feel organic. They lack the nuance of something that contains 50 terpenes might have.
m463 6y ago
Sometimes walking down the cleaning products aisle in some stores feels like running the gauntlet. (is it now the cancer gauntlet?)
TrispusAttucks 6y ago
Glad to see another I can relate to. I don't shop (in person) often but when I do visit the Walmart, next town over, the chemicals of all the new products literally bring tears to and irritate my eyes. I have to stop and rest and try to find places to breathe that don't feel toxic. No one else could ever related.

metalliqaz 6y ago

that's because you call it "this stuff" and bundle everything from new cars to soap into the same category. So you're just sensitive to every industrial material? it's hard to take seriously.

4eor0 6y ago
Is it hard to take pollen allergies from dozens of different plants seriously? How about dust and smoke? How can someone be allergic to both! The temerity. It’s less about chemistry of the materials, more about the sensitivity of the squishy, arbitrary human body.
- forgotmypw17 6y ago
  Pollen I don't avoid, because it's not a new substance. "Dust" allergies often have to do with the substances which are on the dust, which is covered above. Smoke is certainly not good for you. This squishy arbitrary human body is the only one I've got for today, so I avoid whatever I think may harm it, even if there is no dots on the i's and crosses on the t's with regards to scientific proof. If you look at the history of teflon, plastics, cigarettes, VOCs, synthetic food ingredients, you'll see that this strategy would have served a human well in the past, and it's the best one I can think of to follow for the foreseeable future.
  - tptacek 6y ago
    One problem with this kind of reasoning is that it's the same thing that the people with the 5G allergies say. It's tricky because VOCs probably are very bad for us, so there's a kernel of truth in it, but you don't want to balance your entire house on a single kernel, if that makes sense.
    - danlugo92 6y ago
      Jesus Christ comparing allergies to chemicals to 5G conspiracy theories, everyone's a paranoid conspiracy theorist now :shrug
    - codr7 6y ago
      How about judging each case on its merits rather than shoving them all in the conspiracy box to feel better?
      - tptacek 6y ago
        I agree that's how we should do it, and think we are both making the same critique.
forgotmypw17 6y ago
Well, VOCs are in almost all new products on the market...
e7fyeuuerg 6y ago
Reading between the lines they're that room mate who harasses you over their grievance every day while feining politeness. I'd rather move to a longer commute than live with someone like this.
- forgotmypw17 6y ago
  Think what you will, I've converted several households to only use Dr. Bronner's and be generally clean of VOC pollutants. Sure, it's fucking annoying when someone's making you change the ways you've been settling into for decades, and it's also the truth, and a fight worth fighting, in my opinion. It's also easier than you think to change these habits.
  - e7fyeuuerg 6y ago
    Thankyou for demonstrating my point.
    - forgotmypw17 6y ago
      What is your point? That I shouldn't communicate to people I'm close with about about harm they're doing to themselves and myself and help them change their ways?
    - LargoLasskhyfv 6y ago
      Think of the kitties! It's good for them too!
  - NickBusey 6y ago
    You mean the same Dr. Bronner's who's label is completely covered with religious insanity? Thanks, but I think I'll pass on supporting such a company. Edit: Link to the full text for those who feel the need to down vote my shopping preferences. http://dev.null.org/psychoceramics/collection/bronner.html http://dev.null.org/psychoceramics/collection/bronner.html
    - forgotmypw17 6y ago
LargoLasskhyfv 6y ago
It IS the same category when it makes you suffer. Be it sneezes, running nose, coughing, swelling throat, burning eyes, sometimes itching skin, feeling unwell in general after being in contact with or near that stuff. Maybe our bodies have different tresholds for exposure to that stuff, and after oversaturating them for some time, there is no buffer available anymore? Resulting in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_chemical_sensitivity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_chemical_sensitivity
- forgotmypw17 6y ago
  I call it the canary system. Some people are more sensitive than others, but we're all being harmed with it. For my part, I pay attention to what others are sensitive to and avoid it as well. If someone else has trouble coping with a substance but I'm "fine", that probably means that underneath my constituents are still struggling to deal with it and just not telling me.
  - ramblerman 6y ago
    Ssome people are allergic to peanuts, doesn't seem like a well grounded theory.
    - pmoleri 6y ago
      Peanut, Egg, and Milk protein (CMPA) allergies are common in babies. My understanding is that the digestive system is not mature enough to process them, so it rejects them. Some of these allergies develop even while breast fed (baby colic). I take that some allergies stick once developed. But you should consider that something that creates an allergy response in a baby may be not harmful at all for an adult. And sometimes, once the allergy is triggered it sticks.
      - lotsofpulp 6y ago
        I wonder why they weren't common 30 years ago. Not a single person in my entire family from my generation and before has a single allergy, nor was it ever a big thing in school I attended in various US states in the 90s and early 00s. It's like between the time I went to college and my own kids started school, they exploded and now all of the sudden a PB&J sandwich isn't allowed in school. That would have been unfathomable to me in my youth.
cptskippy 6y ago
> "this stuff" Is it less hard to take seriously when the proper term is utilized? Volatile Organic Compounds (a.k.a. VOCs) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volatile_organic_compound https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volatile_organic_compound
forgotmypw17 6y ago
> So you're just sensitive to every industrial material? it's hard to take seriously. Our bodies are essentially "legacy code" that's been evolving not for a decade or two, but for millions of years. If you've ever maintained an old software system, you know that old-tried-and-true inputs are probably good, but trying anything previously untested may cause unpredictable issues. I look at any new substance which my ancestors haven't encountered (and been selected for tolerating) as basically alpha testing, which I'd rather avoid with my irreplaceable hardware-software installation.
- tptacek 6y ago
  In this thread, you've managed to derive axiomatically a theory of toxicity in which peanuts are suspicious because they trigger allergies, which implies our immune systems see something wrong with them. I feel like a grain of salt (if our systems can tolerate it) would do us well on this thread.
varelse 6y ago
So I have an allergy to Aloe. And it got blind tested one night when I slept on a friend's floor and woke up with a rash 100% unaware he used his Aloe plant right where I slept. I also have whatever the hell the MSG allergy is, though obviously it isn't to pure MSG because they can't reproduce it with pure MSG (from which they conclude it doesn't exist), but if someone wants to throw money at figuring out its root cause from some sort of breakdown product or adulterant that travels with commercially produced MSG, I'm happy to be the guinea pig. The last time it hit, at a Chinese restaurant in SF, the left side of my body was nearly paralyzed. It is bizarre whatever it actually is. And the number of you-know-whats I give about randos taking it seriously or not is precisely zero. A former co-worker would projectile vomit if exposed to avocado. I saw that get evaluated blind as well.
- SamoyedFurFluff 6y ago
  If you’re curious about the MSG sensitivity I recommend trying other foods that are high in MSG and looking for similar sensitivities to foods like tomatoes, snack foods, and meat seasoning mixes, and condiments. If you don’t have sensitivities to those, it may be something else that’s causing the issue, like ginger, soy sauce, oyster sauce, etc.
  - srg0 6y ago
    Actually, in case of MSG, it's easier to try it directly, in chemically pure form.
    - varelse 6y ago
      I'm pretty sure it's not reactant grade MSG. But I wonder about breakdown products and adulterants that travel with kitchen-grade MSG.
- dialamac 6y ago
  > The last time it hit, at a Chinese restaurant in SF, Not to not take it seriously, but isn’t there a lot more stuff in American Chinese food other than MSG? Like of the 1000s of chemical substances that would be in a plate of Chinese food, why of all places would that be where you would isolate an MSG allergy? > or adulterant that travels with commercially produced MSG Then that wouldn’t be an MSG allergy. Oats are gluten free but celiacs have difficulty with them, not because of the oats but because of contamination.. we wouldn’t say they have an oat allergy though.
code_duck 6y ago
I have serious problems with many of the same chemicals as GP. Well I understand different ones are harmful or not in theory, I only know what I react to. It's almost uniformly products to which artificial fragrances are added intentionally, or exhaust that's known to be harmful such as diesel and gasoline. I only have issues with certain natural fragrances (essential oils) with extended exposure or large amounts. Most likely it's members of several large categories that I react to. Could be VOCs, phthalates, teflon relatives, and synthetic fragrance compounds. Like gluten intolerance, one of the difficult things about reacting negatively to common consumer products is the number of people who refuse to believe it's a real problem.
briefcomment 6y ago
From personal experience, once you become sensitized, you become sensitive to literally anything synthetic.

rhizome 6y ago

It's like my brother says when there's a food or candy that doesn't taste the same as when we were kids: "they took the cancer out of it." Items that are no longer on the market had to remove so much cancer from their ingredients that it wasn't the same anymore, so they take it off the market. They say "regulations are written in blood," which makes you wonder what "new car smell" was composed of 50 years ago.

cptskippy 6y ago
I think it's actually the opposite. They put the cancer in it by swapping out expensive ingredients like sugar and fat for high fructose corn syrup and palm kernel oil. Evey time you see the "same great taste" or "new formula" on a box it means they've re-engineered it to cut costs by substituting ingredients, usually for some engineered compound that's cheaper or more shelf stable. Hershey's chocolate is now just rancid swill that just tastes of sugar with a hint of vomit.
- souprock 6y ago
  Hershey's chocolate was like that on day 1, about 120 years ago, because they wanted to use milk without having to keep the supply refrigerated. Lipolysis of the milk fat produces butyric acid, which does taste a bit like vomit or parmesan cheese. People got addicted to the taste, so today the flavor is intentional. Some companies, targeting the American market, even add butyric acid to mimic the Hershey's taste.
  - cptskippy 6y ago
    That's interesting. I don't recall it being quite so bad 30 years ago.
- Spivak 6y ago
  Of all the things to point out in commercial food production you chose basically the two most benign things. Swapping refined sugar for HFCS 55 (the most common type) is basically an even trade sans some extra water content in the syrup and palm kernel oil is just saturated fat but sourced from a plant instead of animals. I don’t think anyone is gonna argue that a high sugar and saturated fat diet is healthy but no worse than the same things sourced from other places. In an alternative universe palm oil and corn syrup would have been the standard and people would complain about the switch to lard and white sugar.

pfortuny 6y ago

You are right. However, imagine a world in which you sleep with a log-fire burning...

cptskippy 6y ago

The scary part is that you become desensitized to VOCs the more you're exposed and people willingly increase their exposure by using air fresheners, scented candles, fabric softeners, and incense burners. It gets to the point where they can't even smell moderate amounts. My partner has severe allergies and will break out in hives when exposed to many fragrances so we've cut them out of everything. We avoid most cleaning products and stick to water, salt, baking soda, vinegar, and peroxide for most household cleaning. My MIL is very desensitized to fragrances and my partner has asked her on multiple occasions not to "freshen up" the house before we visit. My MIL swears up and down that she doesn't but the moment you walk in the door it's like a punch in the face. My partner unfortunately will break out in hives and immediately becomes congested.

cmckn 6y ago
Shout out to vinegar! The huge jugs of "cleaning vinegar" changed my life a couple years ago. I still use diluted bleach for the bathroom every once in a while, but vinegar is sufficient for almost everything day-to-day. And it's so much cheaper than most "cleansers".
- cptskippy 6y ago
  Peroxide is a surprisingly good stain and odor remover. I prefer it to vinegar because it doesn't have a pungent odor that masks the odor you're trying to get rid of. But yes vinegar is awesome. It's fantastic at water stains like nothing else.
- KozmoNau7 6y ago
  Acetic acid also works great as fabric softener, and it works against limescale in the washing machine. Anecdotally it also keeps colors vibrant.
briefcomment 6y ago
Having your relatives and friends finally take you seriously is such a relief when you're dealing with MCS.

code_duck 6y ago

I have very serious problems with fragrance chemicals and some VOCs also. It slowly emerged over time in my twenties, well at the same time I was also experiencing what I now know is undiagnosed celiac disease. I've gone through times where almost anything made out of plastic and most indoor furniture made me feel sick, but these days it's mainly just artificial fragrances. Shampoo, conditioner, air freshener, carpet cleaners, garbage bags, dish soap, incense, laundry soap, pesticides, dryer sheets, and so on. I have to use all of these in special unscented versions and try to get any roommates to do so as well. Some are difficult to avoid in public, other people's clothes and hair, fumes coming from laundry vents outdoors, or areas where large amounts of these products are stored such as groceries and hardware stores. The distancing and masks from covid have helped a bit, plus I'm staying home more which is a safe place. This is a problem that's been somewhat peripheral to my other health problems, but has been very disruptive for me. in terms of interpersonal relationships, maybe even worse than type 1 diabetes or celiac because it can make it uncomfortable to get near other people physically, either for a hug or to be in their house or car. Having to convince girlfriends to change hair products has been a major source of stress, too. There are times when I've been forced to be around people who use typical fragrances products on a visit, or at a hotel, and that's difficult. I've tried to look into what health problems could be related to this. There is a syndrome that used to be called MCS (Multiple Chemical Sensitivity) and is now called TILT (Toxicant Induced Loss of Tolerance). Mainly I have found people with Multiple Sclerosis and an immune disorder called MAST cell activation. I have celiac and type 1 diabetes, which are very closely related to MS, so it makes sense. This is the sort of thing that's very difficult to work on with doctors, and it seems likely the best treatment currently available is like an allergy - avoid the triggers.

hh3k0 6y ago

> "Cleaning" products: sprays, detergents, most "soaps", shampoos, creams, conditioners, have this type of crap in them. Yeah, that's awful stuff. Your partners and cohabitants should be grateful that you're somewhat of a canary in a coalmine for them: > Regular use of cleaning sprays has an impact on lung health comparable with smoking a pack of cigarettes every day, according to a new study. https://www.atsjournals.org/doi/full/10.1164/rccm.201706-1311OC https://www.atsjournals.org/doi/full/10.1164/rccm.201706-131...

raws 6y ago

Do you know www.ewg.org/skin deep Do they do a good job? How do you take care of this for yourself?

forgotmypw17 6y ago
I don't use anything besides Bronner's, and I use that sparingly. I haven't applied soap to any parts of myself except my hands for several years. My skin is in better shape than it ever has been, and I hear similar results from others who follow this path. I didn't come up with it myself, someone else shared their experience with me. It takes a week or two for the oil production to balance out. Our skin oils serve as protective layer, and also as the perfect "soap" for washing with water. When you remove them with soap, the skin freaks out and starts compensating.
- raws 6y ago
  Ok thanks! I've seen that product and was just wondering what it was.

trophycase 6y ago

I know, I don't get it. People's laundry steam is pumped out of their basements and when I walk around the city in the wintertime you get an overwhelming scent of unpleasant laundry fragrance every now and then. Some friends of mine had their carpet replaced a month or two ago and there was incredible offgassing. I got an absolutely terrible headache accompanied with nausea after 2 hours but they all seemed to be sitting there inhaling it just fine. I couldn't believe it. I'm just saying "how can you guys handle this?" Dishsoaps too, I find the Dawn dish soap scent absolutely repulsing, mostly because of poor associations with 3 month old sponges, freezing cold houses, and mildewy sinks from college. I don't know how anyone stomachs the stuff. The smells are so "artificial" in the sense that they are one note, they don't feel organic. They lack the nuance of something that contains 50 terpenes might have.

m463 6y ago

Sometimes walking down the cleaning products aisle in some stores feels like running the gauntlet. (is it now the cancer gauntlet?)

TrispusAttucks 6y ago

Glad to see another I can relate to. I don't shop (in person) often but when I do visit the Walmart, next town over, the chemicals of all the new products literally bring tears to and irritate my eyes. I have to stop and rest and try to find places to breathe that don't feel toxic. No one else could ever related.