6 ms·

I would argue what you refer to as “alt-right” is just “what most people thought before 2010 or so”.

blueflow 6y ago
I can't believe how we got into this situation - don't people feel shame if "their side" is smearing their opponents? Its this some lack of standards? Don't people sometimes wonder, "what if its us who are the baddies"? Am i missing something here?
- enriquto 6y ago
  > what if its us who are the baddies What makes this sketch funny is that, no matter how outrageously bad they are, real people never ask this question about themselves.
  - Swenrekcah 6y ago
    That’s too strong of a statement. Those that do ask themselves might then moderate and thus not become the subjects of people’s outrage. They might also be so far down the road of evildoing that every time they do ask themselves, they cling to any excuse that they’re not the baddies.
    - enriquto 6y ago
      > They might also be so far down the road of evildoing that every time they do ask themselves, they cling to any excuse that they’re not the baddies. This describes nearly all of us. You can semi-honestly ask yourself if you are acting good, and mostly about non-essential stuff. But deep down it's just a rhetoric exercise. It is essentially impossible to question your fundamental beliefs. Also, it is easy to verify that this is the case: have you ever held contradictory fundamental beliefs? Not at the same time, of course, but along the years? Like, something that you thought was an immutable basis of your opinion when you were 18, and when you become 35 you think about it and it is obviously wrong. Do you think you were capable at 18 of asking that question to yourself? Do you think you are now capable to do so, regarding your current fundamental thoughts? I may lie and say that I do, but I'm actually incapable to really question my deep beliefs about justice and fairness (even if at some time in the past I held the opposite beliefs!).
      - Swenrekcah 6y ago
        I think I understand what you mean but I’d say the first step along the way to acquiring different fundamental beliefs is the step of questioning your current ones.
        robin21 6y ago
        I good exercise for everyone is to take the other side of the argument and try to win as best you can. The sad thing is that there really is no venue to debate ideas anymore without either side banning the other for “trolling”.
        beaconstudios 6y ago
        in my experience, the best way to improve your beliefs is to listen open-mindedly to the direct opposite beliefs, argued coherently by someone who believes them as strongly as you believe your own beliefs. You can either find a flaw in their reasoning, or you may end up synthesising their beliefs and yours into a greater whole.
    - humanrebar 6y ago
      You can be a subject of outrage without being one of the baddies.
      - Swenrekcah 6y ago
        Of course, but if you’re a landlord and raise prices until you think that perhaps you don’t need to raise them more even though you could, you don’t get any articles written about you. Unless you’d go bragging about it yourself but that’s not what we’re talking about here.
  - humanrebar 6y ago
    Dunno, accepting that you're a sinner and that you need to shape up runs throughout Christian theology. I'm not as familiar with other theological schools, but I believe Buddhism and Islam both recognize dysfunction, including outright baddiness, at least as part of the conversion or enlightenment process.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - staticman2 6y ago
      A lot of powerful people are only "religious" including Christian- when it is convinient. Ruthless business person Monday to Friday, compassionate individual over the weekend, back to ruthless business person during the week.
      - humanrebar 6y ago
        I was responding to "people never" do this kind of self reflection, which isn't true. Pointing out that there are a lot of hypocrites isn't really a counterpoint. Unless you're saying the problem is universal, which is more uncharitable than I think is warranted.
  - PeterisP 6y ago
    I certainly know people who have quit their jobs because of asking a question like this, and at that point (before they quit) they were part of "baddies" according to what they eventually figured out. It's not very common, but it happens - and not necessarily after finding out something new about your organization, but also after finding out something new about yourself and your standards.
- tester34 6y ago
  >Don't people sometimes wonder, "what if its us who are the baddies"? Am i missing something here? Never, it requires maturity.
  - thgaway17 6y ago
    I’d say it requires humility.
    - skrap 6y ago
      "The fundamental cause of the trouble is that in the modern world the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt." - Bertrand Russell
- ben509 6y ago
  I think you have to work "we are baddies" into your entire system of thought. The best example I can think of is Judeo-Christian thinking has the idea built in through the fall from paradise, Cain killing Abel, and broadly the repeated arc of humanity forming a covenant, breaking it, rinse, repeat; Christianity adds the whole story of Christ being crucified. And I think that works, conceptually, because God can be good while people are awful. God is this immutable, objective "good" that we can't argue with or rewrite as we please. Similarly, science can say that its theories are all wrong (bad), but the universe is right (good), so observations trump theory. And a republic can work as a form of government because its premise is people are awful but reliably self-interested, so you can construct a structure of government that pits those different interests against each other and results in a big stalemate. There the "good" isn't very good, but self-interest is at least consistent, and the desire for a continuing political stalemate over a civil war is good enough. So for an ideology to incorporate "we are baddies" into itself, it probably needs some external thing to be the "good" that it looks to, but that "good" has to be something that can't be easily rewritten to be whatever you want it to be.

I can't believe how we got into this situation - don't people feel shame if "their side" is smearing their opponents? Its this some lack of standards? Don't people sometimes wonder, "what if its us who are the baddies"? Am i missing something here?

enriquto 6y ago
> what if its us who are the baddies What makes this sketch funny is that, no matter how outrageously bad they are, real people never ask this question about themselves.
- Swenrekcah 6y ago
  That’s too strong of a statement. Those that do ask themselves might then moderate and thus not become the subjects of people’s outrage. They might also be so far down the road of evildoing that every time they do ask themselves, they cling to any excuse that they’re not the baddies.
  - enriquto 6y ago
    > They might also be so far down the road of evildoing that every time they do ask themselves, they cling to any excuse that they’re not the baddies. This describes nearly all of us. You can semi-honestly ask yourself if you are acting good, and mostly about non-essential stuff. But deep down it's just a rhetoric exercise. It is essentially impossible to question your fundamental beliefs. Also, it is easy to verify that this is the case: have you ever held contradictory fundamental beliefs? Not at the same time, of course, but along the years? Like, something that you thought was an immutable basis of your opinion when you were 18, and when you become 35 you think about it and it is obviously wrong. Do you think you were capable at 18 of asking that question to yourself? Do you think you are now capable to do so, regarding your current fundamental thoughts? I may lie and say that I do, but I'm actually incapable to really question my deep beliefs about justice and fairness (even if at some time in the past I held the opposite beliefs!).
    - Swenrekcah 6y ago
      I think I understand what you mean but I’d say the first step along the way to acquiring different fundamental beliefs is the step of questioning your current ones.
      - robin21 6y ago
        I good exercise for everyone is to take the other side of the argument and try to win as best you can. The sad thing is that there really is no venue to debate ideas anymore without either side banning the other for “trolling”.
      - beaconstudios 6y ago
        in my experience, the best way to improve your beliefs is to listen open-mindedly to the direct opposite beliefs, argued coherently by someone who believes them as strongly as you believe your own beliefs. You can either find a flaw in their reasoning, or you may end up synthesising their beliefs and yours into a greater whole.
  - humanrebar 6y ago
    You can be a subject of outrage without being one of the baddies.
    - Swenrekcah 6y ago
      Of course, but if you’re a landlord and raise prices until you think that perhaps you don’t need to raise them more even though you could, you don’t get any articles written about you. Unless you’d go bragging about it yourself but that’s not what we’re talking about here.
- humanrebar 6y ago
  Dunno, accepting that you're a sinner and that you need to shape up runs throughout Christian theology. I'm not as familiar with other theological schools, but I believe Buddhism and Islam both recognize dysfunction, including outright baddiness, at least as part of the conversion or enlightenment process.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - staticman2 6y ago
    A lot of powerful people are only "religious" including Christian- when it is convinient. Ruthless business person Monday to Friday, compassionate individual over the weekend, back to ruthless business person during the week.
    - humanrebar 6y ago
      I was responding to "people never" do this kind of self reflection, which isn't true. Pointing out that there are a lot of hypocrites isn't really a counterpoint. Unless you're saying the problem is universal, which is more uncharitable than I think is warranted.
- PeterisP 6y ago
  I certainly know people who have quit their jobs because of asking a question like this, and at that point (before they quit) they were part of "baddies" according to what they eventually figured out. It's not very common, but it happens - and not necessarily after finding out something new about your organization, but also after finding out something new about yourself and your standards.
tester34 6y ago
>Don't people sometimes wonder, "what if its us who are the baddies"? Am i missing something here? Never, it requires maturity.
- thgaway17 6y ago
  I’d say it requires humility.
  - skrap 6y ago
    "The fundamental cause of the trouble is that in the modern world the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt." - Bertrand Russell
ben509 6y ago
I think you have to work "we are baddies" into your entire system of thought. The best example I can think of is Judeo-Christian thinking has the idea built in through the fall from paradise, Cain killing Abel, and broadly the repeated arc of humanity forming a covenant, breaking it, rinse, repeat; Christianity adds the whole story of Christ being crucified. And I think that works, conceptually, because God can be good while people are awful. God is this immutable, objective "good" that we can't argue with or rewrite as we please. Similarly, science can say that its theories are all wrong (bad), but the universe is right (good), so observations trump theory. And a republic can work as a form of government because its premise is people are awful but reliably self-interested, so you can construct a structure of government that pits those different interests against each other and results in a big stalemate. There the "good" isn't very good, but self-interest is at least consistent, and the desire for a continuing political stalemate over a civil war is good enough. So for an ideology to incorporate "we are baddies" into itself, it probably needs some external thing to be the "good" that it looks to, but that "good" has to be something that can't be easily rewritten to be whatever you want it to be.