10 ms·
California Exit Interview: Fleeing $17 salads and 'general lawlessness'
- avs733 6y agoSample size of 1.
- avalys 6y agoThis seems more about "fleeing San Francisco" than fleeing California.
- area51org 6y agoYeah, my first reaction was: you're fleeing what? SF is not California. It's not even the Bay Area. It's one city. This is what a lot of incoming people never seem to grok, regardless of how much time they spend living in SF. CA is a huge state, the Bay Area is large, and it's not all exactly the same. OTOH we have too many people anyway, so if they want to leave because of "$17 salads", that's fine. Maybe we can eventually drive places again, without traffic jams. A man can dream.
- raverbashing 6y agoSo San Francisco is not in the... San Francisco Bay Area? Strong disagree with this one. It is part of the urban conurbation. Sure, it might be "different" from the rest but yes, it is part of the Bay Area. Even San Rafael and Richmond are SFBA technically if you look in the map.
- myownpetard 6y agoThey said SF != The Bay Area, not SF ∉ The Bay Area. Your point agrees with him. The Bay Area includes Oakland, Richmond etc. which are pretty different than SF. It is probably not accurate to extrapolate the author's experience in SF to what life is like in all of the other parts of the Bay, much less CA as a whole.
- igetspam 6y agoDisagree all you want but the Bay Area does not have SF in the center. That's north. Silicon Valley is really North San Jose and Sunnyvale. My house in South San Jose was at least and hour from SF and the streets were cleaner, traffic was better, crime was lower and things were cheaper. All of these places make up the Bay Area. I left anyway after 3+ decades but not because of SF. I just wanted more for less. SF is and always has been a special pocket of gross. Some people love it and others, like me, avoided it at all costs. We're not all the same.
- novok 6y agoCrime has gone up in other spots too, such as oakland
- JMTQp8lwXL 6y agoIn terms of economic capital, SF very much is California.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- tomjakubowski 6y agoSan Francisco has a very valuable and expensive tech labor pool. By GDP, however, Los Angeles-Long Beach-Anaheim very much is the dominant economy in California, not the Bay Area. Certainly a city as small as SF proper couldn't qualify for "is California" status in anything. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._metropolitan_areas_by_GDP https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._metropolitan_ar...
- JMTQp8lwXL 6y agoFrom your link, it's clear Los Angeles' GDP is growing slower (up 32% from 2012-18); SFBA is up 50% over the same period. With another decade, if growth rates maintain their trajectories, SF is eating LA's lunch: with each passing year, LA becomes less dominant.
- option 6y agoWhat has happened to SF is such a sad story of bad government it will be in history’s textbooks. Edit: For those who aren’t familiar - check who SF’s DA is, google SF’s school board, daytime population decline, etc.
- Someone1234 6y ago> For those who aren’t familiar - check who SF’s DA is, google SF’s school board, daytime population decline, etc. What did happen to SF? You're assuming everyone reading knows, then point to random posts and ask us to check who is filling them like that's meant to clarify something? The SF School Board's president seems to be Gabriela López[0], I read her profile, and I am no closer to understanding your point. I'm not playing dumb, I really don't understand what you're trying to say at all. [0] https://www.sfusd.edu/about/board-of-education/board-president-gabriela-lopez https://www.sfusd.edu/about/board-of-education/board-preside...
- option 6y agoAbout DA: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chesa_Boudin https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chesa_Boudin About School Board: https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/heatherknight/article/San-Francisco-school-board-s-antics-would-be-15948058.php https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/heatherknight/article/Sa...
- Someone1234 6y agoNeither one really clarifies what your post above was trying to say, and actually raise more questions than they do provide answers. You linked the entire DA's bio (the good & bad), and a news story about a specific meeting that was dysfunctional. Going from that to SF being a "sad story of bad governance" is a bit of an unexplored jump. I invite a post actually explaining what you're trying to say.
- proc0 6y agowhen I was there he decriminilzed shoplifting and announced police would not respond to "quality of life" crimes, meaning defecating on the street for example. This had immediate visible impact where I was and staying was dangerous. Many stores closed around me because of shoplifting. This was all news last year as well, but it got drowned out because of the situation, even though it made everything much worse.
- waiseristy 6y agoI find it hilarious when affluent areas complain about food costs. That 17$ salad is a product of their 10,000$/mo lease on the building, 15$/hr living wages, and healthcare for the employees.
- JMTQp8lwXL 6y agoHis 2-bedroom lease was $4,000. It doesn't sound terribly above the median or gratuitous.
- Ancapistani 6y agoI fully understand that this is relative, but your perspective on it is almost as shocking to me as the cost. I own a 5-bedroom home on 1/2 acre - my mortgage is ~$570 before escrow, and ~$900 total.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- ethanbond 6y agoWhy is that hilarious? Rich and poor alike get shafted by freeloading landlords.
- undefined1 6y agowhich is the result of policies that make construction extremely expensive or straight up prohibited.
- soheil 6y agoSo you're assuming the same owner owned the building for several years if not decades? You do realize real estate is a market just like any other, you buy at the market price, finance that purchase by borrowing money from banks, finally you rent it out to recover some of the monthly finance costs, taxes and maintenance expenses. To continue saying landlords this landlords that makes you sound like you discovered a hidden truth that explains away the issues related to the high prices we're seeing. In fact most likely majority of real estate investors in the Bay Area are earning very nominal returns on their investment compared to other markets, see local housing price growth rates.
- ethbr0 6y agoHypothetically, what does California intrinsically have that other places can't? Ocean access, proximity to Asia Beaches, large parks, mountains (natural spaces) World class universities Telecom infrastructure (?) And what are some things California has that can be duplicated elsewhere? Innovation-fostering legal system (e.g. IP and non-compete) Mature, developed capital ecosystem Vibrant and youth-oriented culture(?) Much has been made of the VC ecosystem stickiness, but wealthy people tend to be pretty mobile. Especially when there are tax incentives. And eventually, companies follow VC. And talent follows companies.
- lotsofpulp 6y agoI would add parental leave, sick leave, overtime after 8 hours, requiring employees be able to sit, anti-SLAPP laws, assisted suicide, and a few other quality of life improvements at work to the list of things that can be duplicated elsewhere.
- notsureaboutpg 6y agoAssisted suicide really doesn't seem to fit in with all the other things you mentioned... :/
- digianarchist 6y agoSeveral of those points, notably, “Mature, developed capital ecosystem”, is why Vancouver hasn’t developed into Canada’s SV.
- ethbr0 6y agoVancouver also has a pretty high cost of living from Chinese capital flight into real estate, no? Haven't been up there in a while. IMHO, people think about the nature of capital ecosystems incompletely. Why haven't other places duplicated SF / LA's ecosystems? Not because they couldn't, but because they couldn't be better enough to justify the move. However, "better" and "enough" are relative terms. If SF & LA are executing well, that's an insurmountable barrier due to network effects. But if SF & LA decrease their competitiveness, the relative difference also decreases. And at some threshold, it does become possible for other cities to capture that business, network effects be damned.
- Someone1234 6y agoI was expecting something longer and more thoughtful, instead it is essentially: high cost of living, and crime in his area became problematic/he personally was the victim of a crime. "We need more police. There’s a general lawlessness that’s just scary." is the kind of "hot take" I go to Facebook to read. I understand and sympathize that he personally experienced a crime, but it is wrong to extrapolate that into some wider trend without more data (and the proposed solution ("more police") even more so). What I am saying is: This article isn't very insightful/doesn't add much to any conversation. No doubt people will use it as a springboard into unrelated conversations they want to have though.
- jeffbee 6y ago"More police" has been on the menu for a long time. The SF police budget has increased 60% in real dollars between 2000 and 2020, and now stands at $5000 per household per year, which is absurd. Obviously, that's not working.
- brandmeyer 6y ago> The SF police budget ... now stands at $5000 per household per year, which is absurd. It is absurd. Its so absurd that I have a hard time believing it. Statistics in this article suggest the SF law enforcement budget is close to 10% of the city's general fund, about 700 $/citizen. Its neighbors spend a much, much larger share of their muni budget on policing. https://www.sfgate.com/news/editorspicks/slideshow/Defund-the-Police-Bay-Area-how-much-budget-cities-203722.php https://www.sfgate.com/news/editorspicks/slideshow/Defund-th... Policing efforts scale with the size of the populace. As a fraction of the city budget, it has decreased from 13% to 10% between 2010 and 2019. If anything, that is the absurdity. https://www.sfchronicle.com/crime/article/After-years-of-spending-and-hiring-SF-police-15337484.php https://www.sfchronicle.com/crime/article/After-years-of-spe...
- jeffbee 6y agoI can't imagine why you would use the nation's most-derided newspaper as a source when primary sources are at your fingertips. "Percent of general fund" is misleading to various degrees depending on the city. Some cities have dedicated taxes for police, some don't fund police from the general fund at all. SF has a unified city/county government so the sheriff shows up in their budgets, as well as the courts and the rest of it. The whole category had a 2019-2020 budget of 1.72 billion. The SFPD alone was 692 million, so I don't know where the Chronicle came up with 606. The number of households in San Francisco, according to the census, was 346k.
- JMTQp8lwXL 6y agoThe more people that don't mind spending $17 on a salad that leave, the more the prices of salads will improve for consumers.
- rayiner 6y agoMy wife and I seriously considered moving to Seattle a few years ago. (Her whole family is from Oregon coast, so that would be a lot closer than Baltimore where we were then.) She got mugged in the middle of the afternoon, as just hours after we got there. :-/ Anecdotal obviously, but the whole place seemed less orderly than you’d expect given the booming economy there.
- moate 6y agoFor clarification: You're saying that because your wife got mugged you felt that Seattle was "less orderly" (I'm assuming this means "higher crime") than Baltimore (which has one of the highest crime rates in the country)? I get that personal connections can be a thing (my sister hated Paris because some creep spit on her after she didn't want to flirt with him) but you realize that statistically that data doesn't support your statement right?
- burnthrow 6y agoI've not yet found a reliable way to experience statistics.
- moate 6y agoOf course not. But "this city is unsafe because something bad happened to me" is useless data to anyone other than you 5 minutes prior to when that thing happened. I mean if someone said "would you rather move to a city with a 1% violent crime rate where you know someone who's part of that 1% or a different city with a 7% violent crime rate but nobody you know has been affected", you can do whatever you want but I'll take the first option. (inb4 "different neighborhoods", "crime rates aren't the same across all demographics", etc)
- burnthrow 6y agoYou have a lot to say!
- rayiner 6y ago
- cammikebrown 6y agoThis guy is from the Midwest and has lived in SF for four years. Imagine reading a NY Times article about someone moving to New York, complaining, and leaving. Who cares? Nobody is forcing this guy to buy a $17 salad either.
- lightgreen 6y ago> Imagine reading a NY Times article about someone moving to New York, complaining, and leaving. Who cares? I care. Sometimes I consider moving to other places, and these personal experiences of people living in different places are much more helpful than very limited experiences of people never been outside of NY. Even if it is only one data point and the experience is very subjective: I'll read more, someone else will write how happy they are in NY, and I'll decide which opinion is more important to me. > Nobody is forcing this guy to buy a $17 salad either. People expect to eat in good cafes, buy quality foods and generally expect standard of life higher than in some third-world countries. Of course it is possible to eat cheaper, but people want to enjoy their lives, while focusing on their work, not on food budgeting. In particular, just walk in a good looking cafe or a restaurant close to the home without reading their menu prices first.
- cammikebrown 6y agoThe chances of randomly walking into any SF restaurant and paying $17 for a salad is very slim. If you’re worried about prices, take the two minutes to check a menu online first.
- lightgreen 6y ago> The chances of randomly walking into any SF restaurant and paying $17 for a salad is very slim. If that's true, and SF prices are moderate, that's good. But that's very different from the original statement "Nobody is forcing this guy to buy a $17 salad either." > If you’re worried about prices, take the two minutes to check a menu online first. The point is that some people want to enjoy life, not worry about prices.
- loloquwowndueo 6y agoI click in the link and am smacked in the face with a paywall. Kthxbye
- kart23 6y agoMeanwhile, San Diego is seeing the highest growth of VC investment money in the nation, and surprisingly San Jose is close behind. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-01-21/silicon-valley-exodus-is-real-but-the-vc-money-is-staying-put https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-01-21/silicon-v...
- Pokepokalypse 6y agolol. Try: "fleeing $900k 2-br houses, and falling salaries"
- cammikebrown 6y agoAre salaries falling in SF specifically? That’s news to me.
- lightgreen 6y agoCould be explained by pandemic and remote work: no need to pay people living in SF, while people could be hired cheaper from other places.
- twelve40 6y agobefore jumping into explanations, is the "falling salaries" part even true though? a citation would be nice.
- lightgreen 6y agoRandom link from Google: https://www.bizjournals.com/sanfrancisco/news/2021/01/21/sf-tech-roles-get-salary-cut.html https://www.bizjournals.com/sanfrancisco/news/2021/01/21/sf-... I don't consider it conclusive, so I did not post it initially.
- rmk 6y agoFalling salaries? That's news to me. Are you talking about IT and operations, which is a very different endeavour from building hardware/software product? Or are you talking about the latter? As far as I can tell, core software and hardware development salaries are showing no sign of slowing down in their growth.
- Drunkfoowl 6y agoTeam lead, gross margin, JUUL Labs I dont think the authors understand what a "tech job" is. This guy is working shitty mid level management for the finance team of a nicotine startup. What a joke.
- mattlondon 6y agoFWIW I had the option of relocating to SF a few years ago (2015 perhaps? Thereabouts). I went over on an extended visit to the local SF office for a few weeks and my wife came with me to "try it out". The reasons in the article were largely the same as ours for deciding hell no and staying in London. Apart from stepping over human excrement in the street and the pervasive stench of piss everywhere and seeing the police point guns at homeless people on the streets for basically zero-provocation, the real decision-maker was my wife telling me one day when I got back from the office how she was verbally abused and then had a glass bottle thrown at her by the homeless people near the apartment we were renting in what felt like should have been a nice and safe central neighborhood near Market Street and Union Square. That has never happened to us anywhere in Europe (or elsewhere in the US for that matter), unless you go out of your way to find an off-the-beaten-path sketchy neighborhood, not the common central places where tourists go and stay. We had a really nice vacation though! :)
- jeffbee 6y agoMid-market street is an open-air insane asylum and probably the very last place that I would ever consider renting an apartment. Hard to tell that from glancing at a map, of course.
- david38 6y agoI have lived here for ten years and have never seen a cop pull a gun and actually threaten someone without provocation. Pulling a gun is one thing, actually threatening to use it is another. It’s a difference in how police are in the US vs UK. That said, I keep considering moving to Europe myself. I pay crazy taxes for shit in the streets, half assed mass transit, high college tuition, etc.
- jjeaff 6y agoThe US also has other cities. Even California has more than just SF. But europe is nice too, though with lots of old, outdated and difficult to upgrade building and houses. (I'm not a fan of steam radiator heating).
- 6y ago
- jti107 6y agojust need a couple more million people to move out
- underseacables 6y agoI would love to see a detailed journalistic endeavor comparing moving from California to another state, and try to match up the areas. Housing is cheaper, but what about groceries? Fuel?
- nradov 6y agoAnecdotally I've seen multiple people flee California due to overly restrictive coronavirus lockdown rules. Texas seems to be the most popular destination, and also Florida and other southeast states. Why wait indefinitely for California to reopen schools, businesses, and sports when other states have already done so?
- Lammy 6y agoThe “omg everyone is leaving California and so should you!!” forced meme is getting really old. I welcome anyone at the Chronicle to go first and write about their firsthand experience :)
- airhead969 6y agoI grew up in San Jose, went to UC Davis, worked at Stanford (near Palo Alto), and then periodically-commuted between Mountain View and the Chico area. I left because of the fires/smoke, risks of earthquakes and megafloods, costs, worsening attitudes of people, and it just generally sucked. In Austin now, and much happier so far. Will see if it's New Relationship Energy and whether I need to move to Portland. I never understood why anyone would want to live in unsustainable SF, no matter how "good" or "cool" it is or was, when the vast majority of people don't make anywhere near enough (>50% income to housing) to build a long-term future there.
- plugger 6y agoI think we can all agree that SF as well as Cali has a problem in terms of homelessness. I think we can also agree that homelessness leads to criminal behavior. I expect if I lived on the streets I'd do whatever I had to (illegal or otherwise) to survive. What I don't understand is why people think the solution to homelessness is more policing. I mean, just think about that, how is homelessness going to be solved with more cops?