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So since bitcoin is up right now, we're just going to see nonstop attacks on the fact that it's not climate friendly with its energy usage? Feels like this is t

So since bitcoin is up right now, we're just going to see nonstop attacks on the fact that it's not climate friendly with its energy usage? Feels like this is the sixth article I've seen on Hacker News in the last month. From a quick skim this article seems like it might have some good data, but it also has a bunch of loaded language in it that turns me off from wanting to read the article. "Bitcoin and other PoW coins are an ESG nightmare" "This paper looks at the energy consumption of seven proof-of-work-based anarchic (public) blockchains such as Bitcoin and Ethereum." (You know how anarchy is bad right, well we're going to say these are like anarchy, so they're bad too.) "Many Bitcoin promoters conjure a future world...[where Bitcoin is king and leads to renewable energy]" (they're like spellcasters, this future doesn't really exist, they're trying to pretend they will create it out of nothing but they never will!) "Putting aside the continual greenwashing that many advocates are guilty of" (You know how whitewashing is bad? Well so is greenwashing! I'm saying these people do that and that means they're bad!) "The container ship fetish is a slight-of-hand[sic] trick..." (These guys have fetishes and fetishes are bad, also they're using slight-of-hand and tricking you, and tricking people is bad!) Also the writer misspelled 'sleight'. If they wanted to change minds the writer should have used more neutral language in their sentences. You can be persuasive without resorting to this. I'll sit down and read it a bit later, but not feeling like trudging through all this loaded language.

ForHackernews 6y ago
None of the neutral language moves the needle. People have been pointing out for years that using more energy than all of Denmark to handle fewer transactions than a mid-sized Walmart is not a recipe for success. There are too many bagholders, excuse me, "investors" who are financially motivated to keep pushing this stuff.
- Rallerbabs 6y ago
  Bitcoin is at all time high, meaning just about everybody who ever bought bitcoin is currently in profit. There are very few bagholders.
  - glial 6y ago
    It’s not profit till you sell/spend it.
  - ForHackernews 6y ago
    Yeah, and I was a paper multimillionaire around the time of the first dot-com boom. We'll see how it shakes out when the music stops.
    - Rallerbabs 6y ago
      I'm dedicated to learning to recognize bottoms & tops. I successfully bought the bottom. Now only to successfully sell the top.
ycombinatorrio 6y ago
I saw the same too especially on HN. I suspect a non-negligible amount of competitors paying farm-content providers trying to make it a pb.
- sokoloff 6y ago
  > paying farm-content providers trying to make it a pb. What is “pb” in this context?
iagovar 6y ago
Neutral language doesn't work, we can see it in its price.
sildur 6y ago
Just all the always-on devices in the US alone consume 1.5 times the electricity of the entire bitcoin network. And at least the bitcoin network is doing something useful.
MrMan 6y ago
But I have to trudge though your non-subtantive rant as the top comment. How about addressing the issue discussed in the posted article instead of opting out because you don’t like the language the author uses in an attempt (perhaps unskillful) at being persuasive?
- cableshaft 6y ago
  Because I didn't read the full article yet, because it's super long and it's morning and I haven't had coffee and I'm getting ready for work. I did read a little bit to see if it's worth reading later, and was really annoyed by its loaded language, and wanted to point it out to people who might not notice otherwise. Seems like, for the most part, at least right now, people agree with me. Also I can't even go back to read it now if I wanted to, since it's now serving a 503 after being slammed with traffic, I assume.
Rallerbabs 6y ago
Hacker News is indeed being overrun by a too large amount of irrational bitcoin FUD. The energy 'argument' is easily debunked. But that's not what this comment is about, so I won't rehash it here. Trying to change people's minds on here doesn't work. But you know what? That's okay! It signals us bitcoin holders how incredibly early we are in this life changing monetary revolution, that we are seeing unfold before our very eyes. Bitcoin was meant to be attacked from all angles, non stop. It's what makes it so resilient. If it can fail, it must fail. But it's not failing, is it? Quite the opposite... Every bitcoin newcomer who reads this FUD, is going to remember it years from now, when bitcoin is still around and at higher prices than ever. And they'll think to themselves... "Well, if after all these years, bitcoin is still around, despite supposedly being a bad thing, then it might not be such a bad thing after all!". So I say: Let they naysayers attempt to take bitcoin down. It will only result in new all time highs for my portfolio. And for that, I am grateful. The early bird gets the worm. The late ones convince themselves the worms are poisonous, leaving more worms for the early birds. Nature takes its course.
- raverbashing 6y ago
  Ah I see https://www.amazon.com/Are-Missing-Real-Estate-Boom/dp/0385514344 https://www.amazon.com/Are-Missing-Real-Estate-Boom/dp/03855... One can invest in Bitcoin if one wants, but only because The Market Can Remain Irrational Longer Than You Can Remain Solvent
  - Rallerbabs 6y ago
    Fiat is at the end of its lifespan. People are seeking refuge in bitcoin now. It's deflationary by design, which makes it an excellent store of value. It's value has only been going up for 12 years straight now. No bubble to be seen here. https://hope.com https://hope.com The crypto market is now just gettings its first billionaires to invest in it (Michael Saylor, Elon Musk, GrayScale, etc.), and the market cap is still small. This is just getting started. https://bitcointreasuries.org/ https://bitcointreasuries.org/
  - cableshaft 6y ago
    I would agree there are people that are buying in now that think there's no risk that Bitcoin will go down, and think it's only going to keep going up, and will probably sell as soon as it drops and lose a lot of money. There's definitely a risk it could go down. Bitcoin has been super volatile in the past, and has cratered to 20% of its price before and probably will again. Might even be relatively soon (within a year, I'm guessing). But people who have held on to the asset through those dips are now doing incredibly well, assuming they sell before the next major dip (and probably even if it they don't, 20% of $48,000 is $9600, and if they bought while it was $3500 a year ago, that's still triple what they bought it at). People who have bought and held since it was $220 back in 2015 are likely doing extremely well. There's very few assets out there that can offer 200x returns in just five years.
pdpi 6y ago
"Anarchic" is a perfectly reasonable, even necessary, descriptor for cryptocurrencies. They were born in the cypherpunk community, and Bitcoin cites Wei Dai's B-money, which directly namechecks Tim May's Crypto-anarchist manifesto.
- cableshaft 6y ago
  That was the first one I noticed, and if it was only that word in isolation (without the rest) I wouldn't have bothered making the comment. Regardless of how it was born, I don't think it qualifies as anarchy now, especially with how it can be tracked and regulated (indirectly, i.e. it can be banned, transactions taxed, exchanges subpoena'd for transaction information, ledgers tracked, etc) by governments.
  - orwin 6y ago
    And, tbh, its IS greenwashing, and it is almost more blatant than Total and Exxon.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - solosoyokaze 6y ago
    Some crypto can be potentially tracked by governments, but it's a lot harder to seize someone's wallet than it is to close their bank account. Having a non-state backed currency is a prerequisite to anarchy.
    - africanboy 6y ago
      https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.coindesk.com/north-korea-stole-2-billion-in-crypto-and-fiat-to-fund-weapons-programs%3famp=1 https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.coindesk.com/north-korea-st... (AMP link because coindesk hid the article behind a fake 404 page)

ForHackernews 6y ago

None of the neutral language moves the needle. People have been pointing out for years that using more energy than all of Denmark to handle fewer transactions than a mid-sized Walmart is not a recipe for success. There are too many bagholders, excuse me, "investors" who are financially motivated to keep pushing this stuff.

Rallerbabs 6y ago
Bitcoin is at all time high, meaning just about everybody who ever bought bitcoin is currently in profit. There are very few bagholders.
- glial 6y ago
  It’s not profit till you sell/spend it.
- ForHackernews 6y ago
  Yeah, and I was a paper multimillionaire around the time of the first dot-com boom. We'll see how it shakes out when the music stops.
  - Rallerbabs 6y ago
    I'm dedicated to learning to recognize bottoms & tops. I successfully bought the bottom. Now only to successfully sell the top.

ycombinatorrio 6y ago

I saw the same too especially on HN. I suspect a non-negligible amount of competitors paying farm-content providers trying to make it a pb.

sokoloff 6y ago
> paying farm-content providers trying to make it a pb. What is “pb” in this context?

iagovar 6y ago

Neutral language doesn't work, we can see it in its price.

sildur 6y ago

Just all the always-on devices in the US alone consume 1.5 times the electricity of the entire bitcoin network. And at least the bitcoin network is doing something useful.

MrMan 6y ago

But I have to trudge though your non-subtantive rant as the top comment. How about addressing the issue discussed in the posted article instead of opting out because you don’t like the language the author uses in an attempt (perhaps unskillful) at being persuasive?

cableshaft 6y ago
Because I didn't read the full article yet, because it's super long and it's morning and I haven't had coffee and I'm getting ready for work. I did read a little bit to see if it's worth reading later, and was really annoyed by its loaded language, and wanted to point it out to people who might not notice otherwise. Seems like, for the most part, at least right now, people agree with me. Also I can't even go back to read it now if I wanted to, since it's now serving a 503 after being slammed with traffic, I assume.

Rallerbabs 6y ago

Hacker News is indeed being overrun by a too large amount of irrational bitcoin FUD. The energy 'argument' is easily debunked. But that's not what this comment is about, so I won't rehash it here. Trying to change people's minds on here doesn't work. But you know what? That's okay! It signals us bitcoin holders how incredibly early we are in this life changing monetary revolution, that we are seeing unfold before our very eyes. Bitcoin was meant to be attacked from all angles, non stop. It's what makes it so resilient. If it can fail, it must fail. But it's not failing, is it? Quite the opposite... Every bitcoin newcomer who reads this FUD, is going to remember it years from now, when bitcoin is still around and at higher prices than ever. And they'll think to themselves... "Well, if after all these years, bitcoin is still around, despite supposedly being a bad thing, then it might not be such a bad thing after all!". So I say: Let they naysayers attempt to take bitcoin down. It will only result in new all time highs for my portfolio. And for that, I am grateful. The early bird gets the worm. The late ones convince themselves the worms are poisonous, leaving more worms for the early birds. Nature takes its course.

raverbashing 6y ago
Ah I see https://www.amazon.com/Are-Missing-Real-Estate-Boom/dp/0385514344 https://www.amazon.com/Are-Missing-Real-Estate-Boom/dp/03855... One can invest in Bitcoin if one wants, but only because The Market Can Remain Irrational Longer Than You Can Remain Solvent
- Rallerbabs 6y ago
  Fiat is at the end of its lifespan. People are seeking refuge in bitcoin now. It's deflationary by design, which makes it an excellent store of value. It's value has only been going up for 12 years straight now. No bubble to be seen here. https://hope.com https://hope.com The crypto market is now just gettings its first billionaires to invest in it (Michael Saylor, Elon Musk, GrayScale, etc.), and the market cap is still small. This is just getting started. https://bitcointreasuries.org/ https://bitcointreasuries.org/
- cableshaft 6y ago
  I would agree there are people that are buying in now that think there's no risk that Bitcoin will go down, and think it's only going to keep going up, and will probably sell as soon as it drops and lose a lot of money. There's definitely a risk it could go down. Bitcoin has been super volatile in the past, and has cratered to 20% of its price before and probably will again. Might even be relatively soon (within a year, I'm guessing). But people who have held on to the asset through those dips are now doing incredibly well, assuming they sell before the next major dip (and probably even if it they don't, 20% of $48,000 is $9600, and if they bought while it was $3500 a year ago, that's still triple what they bought it at). People who have bought and held since it was $220 back in 2015 are likely doing extremely well. There's very few assets out there that can offer 200x returns in just five years.

pdpi 6y ago

"Anarchic" is a perfectly reasonable, even necessary, descriptor for cryptocurrencies. They were born in the cypherpunk community, and Bitcoin cites Wei Dai's B-money, which directly namechecks Tim May's Crypto-anarchist manifesto.

cableshaft 6y ago
That was the first one I noticed, and if it was only that word in isolation (without the rest) I wouldn't have bothered making the comment. Regardless of how it was born, I don't think it qualifies as anarchy now, especially with how it can be tracked and regulated (indirectly, i.e. it can be banned, transactions taxed, exchanges subpoena'd for transaction information, ledgers tracked, etc) by governments.
- orwin 6y ago
  And, tbh, its IS greenwashing, and it is almost more blatant than Total and Exxon.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- solosoyokaze 6y ago
  Some crypto can be potentially tracked by governments, but it's a lot harder to seize someone's wallet than it is to close their bank account. Having a non-state backed currency is a prerequisite to anarchy.
  - africanboy 6y ago
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.coindesk.com/north-korea-stole-2-billion-in-crypto-and-fiat-to-fund-weapons-programs%3famp=1 https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.coindesk.com/north-korea-st... (AMP link because coindesk hid the article behind a fake 404 page)