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Well said. The book Extreme Ownership has a slightly different take of what I think is basically the same idea. It opened my eyes to a new way of thinking abo

Well said. The book Extreme Ownership has a slightly different take of what I think is basically the same idea. It opened my eyes to a new way of thinking about people above you in the organizational hierarchy and advocated taking ownership up the chain as well as down. Instead of asking yourself "why isn't my boss listening to me?", you should ask yourself how you are failing to communicate to your boss. Obviously things aren't entirely your fault all the time, but changing your ownership mentality is a tremendously empowering idea--especially when it goes in the opposite direction of traditionally perceived power vectors.

matwood 6y ago
EO is great and has really changed how I interact with people. > Obviously things aren't entirely your fault all the time I prefer using the word 'control' over fault, because fault has so many negative connotations. Things are not entirely in your control all the time, but many times they are. How a person responds to situation is always in their control. The classic one which you refer to is blaming others when a failure occurs - communication or otherwise. And yes, it is completely empowering and changes how one acts as a leader or team member.
- mightybyte 6y ago
  > I prefer using the word 'control' over fault, because fault has so many negative connotations. Excellent point. I completely agree. I'll have to keep that in mind in the future.
- edmundsauto 6y ago
  Please be careful about the downsides of EO, which can be seen in the author's complicated legacy within the SEALS. The culture this produced when taken too far can be seen in the Ed Gallagher problem[0]. When things are decentralized, you have to make sure you can trust your people. When you can't, you end up with Gallagher, or LAPD Rampart scandal. [0] https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/27/us/navy-seals-edward-gallagher-video.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/27/us/navy-seals-edward-gall...
  - matwood 6y ago
    If you can't trust your people, then you have a big problem no matter what management style you use. I would argue EO has nothing to to do with it. In fact, if EO had been followed in this case, the subordinate operators would have put a stop to a crazy officer. What's described in that article is the opposite of subordinates being empowered. Also, AFAIK, Jocko have never addressed the issue you linked. It might be because he simply doesn't know enough to comment. He left the military in 2010 and this incident happened in 2017. Do you have anything to attach him or EO directly to it?
  - mightybyte 6y ago
    The author wrote follow-up book called The Dichotomy of Leadership specifically to address the problem of people taking EO too far in one direction. But like my sibling comment mentions, I don't think you should blame the Gallagher problem on EO without clear evidence connecting the two. And even if you do, the follow-up book is there to clarify.
    - matwood 6y ago
      Not to sound like a Jocko fanboy because I think he does have his faults like anyone, but he addresses similar situations in his podcast while reviewing books like The Rape of Nanking, No Ordinary Men, and talking about the My Lai massacre. In all of those situations, EO would would have led the soldiers involved to question leadership and put a stop to what was happening. Giving up control and just 'following orders' was what in part, led to these horrific acts.
solipsism 6y ago
Never read the book, but this is the well-published psychological factor known as locus of control. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locus_of_control https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locus_of_control You should probably try to give credit for the idea where credit is due. By the way, this is an important part of the growth of junior engineers into senior engineers. I've noticed junior engineers tend to identify obstacles as blockers. When asked about progress or estimates, they just talk about the blockers. Completely out of their control. Senior engineers find workarounds, solutions, alternatives.
- imwillofficial 6y ago
  They are giving credit where credit is due, to the person who made that concept real to them. It is literally impossible to find the original source of every good idea a person has implemented, much less heard. You should probably stop telling people what to do and appreciate alternate routes to arrive at good ideas. Love your comment on junior vs. senior engineers. Very insightful!
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]

matwood 6y ago

EO is great and has really changed how I interact with people. > Obviously things aren't entirely your fault all the time I prefer using the word 'control' over fault, because fault has so many negative connotations. Things are not entirely in your control all the time, but many times they are. How a person responds to situation is always in their control. The classic one which you refer to is blaming others when a failure occurs - communication or otherwise. And yes, it is completely empowering and changes how one acts as a leader or team member.

mightybyte 6y ago
> I prefer using the word 'control' over fault, because fault has so many negative connotations. Excellent point. I completely agree. I'll have to keep that in mind in the future.
edmundsauto 6y ago
Please be careful about the downsides of EO, which can be seen in the author's complicated legacy within the SEALS. The culture this produced when taken too far can be seen in the Ed Gallagher problem[0]. When things are decentralized, you have to make sure you can trust your people. When you can't, you end up with Gallagher, or LAPD Rampart scandal. [0] https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/27/us/navy-seals-edward-gallagher-video.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/27/us/navy-seals-edward-gall...
- matwood 6y ago
  If you can't trust your people, then you have a big problem no matter what management style you use. I would argue EO has nothing to to do with it. In fact, if EO had been followed in this case, the subordinate operators would have put a stop to a crazy officer. What's described in that article is the opposite of subordinates being empowered. Also, AFAIK, Jocko have never addressed the issue you linked. It might be because he simply doesn't know enough to comment. He left the military in 2010 and this incident happened in 2017. Do you have anything to attach him or EO directly to it?
- mightybyte 6y ago
  The author wrote follow-up book called The Dichotomy of Leadership specifically to address the problem of people taking EO too far in one direction. But like my sibling comment mentions, I don't think you should blame the Gallagher problem on EO without clear evidence connecting the two. And even if you do, the follow-up book is there to clarify.
  - matwood 6y ago
    Not to sound like a Jocko fanboy because I think he does have his faults like anyone, but he addresses similar situations in his podcast while reviewing books like The Rape of Nanking, No Ordinary Men, and talking about the My Lai massacre. In all of those situations, EO would would have led the soldiers involved to question leadership and put a stop to what was happening. Giving up control and just 'following orders' was what in part, led to these horrific acts.

solipsism 6y ago

Never read the book, but this is the well-published psychological factor known as locus of control. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locus_of_control https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locus_of_control You should probably try to give credit for the idea where credit is due. By the way, this is an important part of the growth of junior engineers into senior engineers. I've noticed junior engineers tend to identify obstacles as blockers. When asked about progress or estimates, they just talk about the blockers. Completely out of their control. Senior engineers find workarounds, solutions, alternatives.

imwillofficial 6y ago
They are giving credit where credit is due, to the person who made that concept real to them. It is literally impossible to find the original source of every good idea a person has implemented, much less heard. You should probably stop telling people what to do and appreciate alternate routes to arrive at good ideas. Love your comment on junior vs. senior engineers. Very insightful!
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]