5 ms·

Mmmh, here's my take: they are not infallible superheroes. They were fallible human beings. Are there better people, today, who could lead the country? Of co

Mmmh, here's my take: they are not infallible superheroes. They were fallible human beings. Are there better people, today, who could lead the country? Of course. Will they ever actually be elected to do so? Sadly, no. America in the late 1700s was a weird moment in history where educated, forward-thinking intellectuals (not nobility, not just the moneyed elite — actually a lot of men who (mostly) deserved to be called intellectual) actually had a chance to make the rules. They made pretty good ones. Some flawed rules, but good ones. We're not going to get that again. The real-time feedback of TwitterDemocracy would prevent us from ever getting a document as general yet meaningful as the Bill of Rights, with basically unfettered rights to speech and assembly. So until I see a viable path to put people in charge who actually surpass them in wisdom and foresight, I'm going to stick to what they put forward. It has aged and worked amazingly well, and have 0 confidence that the politicians of today, if starting from scratch, would do better.

tomrod 6y ago
You might be interested in reading on many of the other democracies out there that update their constitutions frequently.
- bpodgursky 6y ago
  There are no other democracies out there that have the almost-unfettered rights to assembly and speech that the US has. This is important to me. And FWIW, there are (by most measures) no other democracies out there which have gone as long under peaceful rule of law as the US. Every other democracy (save by some measures the UK) has fallen to coup or revolution in less than this duration. Their latest constitutions may work to keep them stable as long as the US has managed. Or they may not. Time will tell.
  - crumbshot 6y ago
    > there are (by most measures) no other democracies out there which have gone as long under peaceful rule of law as the US. Are you taking the end of the US civil war as the starting point? If so, then Switzerland has a longer duration of peaceful rule of law.
    - bpodgursky 6y ago
      I don't see that as necessary, given that most of the US remained under continuous democratic governance. The rest... got there eventually. Even if you do count from the end of the civil war, I would not consider my central thesis destroyed by the small and frankly uniquely weird country of Switzerland. Switzerland is a country that has done very well for its people, but the lessons which have kept it stable and safe over the past two centuries (have a lot of mountains, and don't be worth invading) are not ones which extrapolate out. And let's be honest -- Switzerland was not functionally independent in WWII. It wasn't necessary to invade, because they did whatever the Third Reich wanted with their stolen gold and borders. This is not the stability I am looking for.
      - joubert 6y ago
        > Switzerland is a country that has done very well for its people, but the lessons which have kept it stable and safe over the past two centuries (have a lot of mountains, and don't be worth invading) are not ones which extrapolate out. Would you say that Jean-Jacques Rousseau’s political thought has been valuable and influential in the world? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Jacques_Rousseau https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Jacques_Rousseau
      - crumbshot 6y ago
        > Even if you do count from the end of the civil war, I would not consider my central thesis destroyed by the small and frankly uniquely weird country of Switzerland. What exactly is your central thesis? It sounds like you're presenting an argument of American exceptionalism, but perhaps I'm misunderstanding your point here.
  - Clewza313 6y ago
    Freedom of assembly and speech are table stakes in most democracies, and the US doesn't even rank particularly highly (#45) in the World Press Freedom index: https://rsf.org/en/ranking https://rsf.org/en/ranking The real outlier in the US is gun rights.
    - bpodgursky 6y ago
      I really don't care what some random list says — ex, Germany does not have the same freedom of speech that the US has. There are literal banned books other blanket bans with regards to Nazi speech. That's fine, they can do them, but the enshrined rights are simply not comparable, and it's ridiculous to claim they are.
      - loopz 6y ago
        Your young country may have yet to learn about banning extremist ideology and cults.
        bpodgursky 6y ago
        My young country didn't gas 12 million of its own citizens, so I'd say we're doing comparatively better.
        dang 6y ago
        Would you please stop posting flamewar comments to HN? This is over the top. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
      - pm90 6y ago
        Yes, not banning Nazis has worked extremely well for the US in its recent past.
  - sizt 6y ago
    You need to get out more, seriously.
- dang 6y ago
  Please don't take HN threads further into nationalistic or ideological flamewar, or any flamewar. We're trying for something else here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- sizt 6y ago
  Jeff Daniels monologue in "The Newsroom" "It's not the greatest country in the world professor, that's my answer. Sharon, the NEA is a loser, yeah, it accounts for a penny out of our paycheck but he gets to hit you with it any time he wants. It doesn't cost money, it costs votes, it costs air time, it costs column inches. You know why people don't like liberals? Because they lose. If liberals are so damn smart, how come they lose so bad always? Turns to conservative pundit And with a straight face you're going to tell students that America is so star spangled awesome that we're the only ones in the world that have freedom? Canada has freedom. Japan has freedom. The UK, France, Italy, Germany, Spain, Australia, BELGIUM has freedom. So, 207 sovereign states in the world, like 180 of them have freedom. And you, sorority girl, just in case you accidentally wander into a voting booth one day there's somethings you should know. One of them is there's absolutely no evidence to support the statement that we're the greatest country in the world. We're 7th in literacy, 27th in math, 22nd in science, 49th in life expectancy, 178th in infant mortality, 3rd in median household income, Number 4 in labor force and Number 4 in exports, we lead the world in only three categories: Number of incarcerated citizens per capita, number of adults who believe angels are real, and defense spending where spend more than the next 26 countries combined, 25 of whom are allies. Now none of this is the fault of a 20 year old college student, but you none the less are without a doubt a member of the worst period generation period ever period, so when you ask what makes us the greatest country in the world, I don't know what the hell you're talking about.
pm90 6y ago
> It has aged and worked amazingly well, and have 0 confidence that the politicians of today, if starting from scratch, would do better. It has aged well only if you ignore the fact that millions of Americans who were at first considered property, and then “freed” only to be incarcerated and discriminated against, don’t have a say in what “well” means. Politicians of today understand today’s problems and are better equipped to find answers to those problems. They are armed with a team of educated aides and have access to political science research. I’m confident they could devise a better, modern constitution today.

tomrod 6y ago

You might be interested in reading on many of the other democracies out there that update their constitutions frequently.

bpodgursky 6y ago
There are no other democracies out there that have the almost-unfettered rights to assembly and speech that the US has. This is important to me. And FWIW, there are (by most measures) no other democracies out there which have gone as long under peaceful rule of law as the US. Every other democracy (save by some measures the UK) has fallen to coup or revolution in less than this duration. Their latest constitutions may work to keep them stable as long as the US has managed. Or they may not. Time will tell.
- crumbshot 6y ago
  > there are (by most measures) no other democracies out there which have gone as long under peaceful rule of law as the US. Are you taking the end of the US civil war as the starting point? If so, then Switzerland has a longer duration of peaceful rule of law.
  - bpodgursky 6y ago
    I don't see that as necessary, given that most of the US remained under continuous democratic governance. The rest... got there eventually. Even if you do count from the end of the civil war, I would not consider my central thesis destroyed by the small and frankly uniquely weird country of Switzerland. Switzerland is a country that has done very well for its people, but the lessons which have kept it stable and safe over the past two centuries (have a lot of mountains, and don't be worth invading) are not ones which extrapolate out. And let's be honest -- Switzerland was not functionally independent in WWII. It wasn't necessary to invade, because they did whatever the Third Reich wanted with their stolen gold and borders. This is not the stability I am looking for.
    - joubert 6y ago
      > Switzerland is a country that has done very well for its people, but the lessons which have kept it stable and safe over the past two centuries (have a lot of mountains, and don't be worth invading) are not ones which extrapolate out. Would you say that Jean-Jacques Rousseau’s political thought has been valuable and influential in the world? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Jacques_Rousseau https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Jacques_Rousseau
    - crumbshot 6y ago
      > Even if you do count from the end of the civil war, I would not consider my central thesis destroyed by the small and frankly uniquely weird country of Switzerland. What exactly is your central thesis? It sounds like you're presenting an argument of American exceptionalism, but perhaps I'm misunderstanding your point here.
- Clewza313 6y ago
  Freedom of assembly and speech are table stakes in most democracies, and the US doesn't even rank particularly highly (#45) in the World Press Freedom index: https://rsf.org/en/ranking https://rsf.org/en/ranking The real outlier in the US is gun rights.
  - bpodgursky 6y ago
    I really don't care what some random list says — ex, Germany does not have the same freedom of speech that the US has. There are literal banned books other blanket bans with regards to Nazi speech. That's fine, they can do them, but the enshrined rights are simply not comparable, and it's ridiculous to claim they are.
    - loopz 6y ago
      Your young country may have yet to learn about banning extremist ideology and cults.
      - bpodgursky 6y ago
        My young country didn't gas 12 million of its own citizens, so I'd say we're doing comparatively better.
        dang 6y ago
        Would you please stop posting flamewar comments to HN? This is over the top. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
    - pm90 6y ago
      Yes, not banning Nazis has worked extremely well for the US in its recent past.
- sizt 6y ago
  You need to get out more, seriously.
dang 6y ago
Please don't take HN threads further into nationalistic or ideological flamewar, or any flamewar. We're trying for something else here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
sizt 6y ago
Jeff Daniels monologue in "The Newsroom" "It's not the greatest country in the world professor, that's my answer. Sharon, the NEA is a loser, yeah, it accounts for a penny out of our paycheck but he gets to hit you with it any time he wants. It doesn't cost money, it costs votes, it costs air time, it costs column inches. You know why people don't like liberals? Because they lose. If liberals are so damn smart, how come they lose so bad always? Turns to conservative pundit And with a straight face you're going to tell students that America is so star spangled awesome that we're the only ones in the world that have freedom? Canada has freedom. Japan has freedom. The UK, France, Italy, Germany, Spain, Australia, BELGIUM has freedom. So, 207 sovereign states in the world, like 180 of them have freedom. And you, sorority girl, just in case you accidentally wander into a voting booth one day there's somethings you should know. One of them is there's absolutely no evidence to support the statement that we're the greatest country in the world. We're 7th in literacy, 27th in math, 22nd in science, 49th in life expectancy, 178th in infant mortality, 3rd in median household income, Number 4 in labor force and Number 4 in exports, we lead the world in only three categories: Number of incarcerated citizens per capita, number of adults who believe angels are real, and defense spending where spend more than the next 26 countries combined, 25 of whom are allies. Now none of this is the fault of a 20 year old college student, but you none the less are without a doubt a member of the worst period generation period ever period, so when you ask what makes us the greatest country in the world, I don't know what the hell you're talking about.

pm90 6y ago

> It has aged and worked amazingly well, and have 0 confidence that the politicians of today, if starting from scratch, would do better. It has aged well only if you ignore the fact that millions of Americans who were at first considered property, and then “freed” only to be incarcerated and discriminated against, don’t have a say in what “well” means. Politicians of today understand today’s problems and are better equipped to find answers to those problems. They are armed with a team of educated aides and have access to political science research. I’m confident they could devise a better, modern constitution today.