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Show HN: ustaxes.org – open-source tax filing webapp
- vxNsr 6y agoIs this federal only or state as well? The readme and website appear to be kinda thin on details. Cool nonetheless.
- aidangrimshaw 6y agoThis is federal only right now, I plan to work on state taxes in the future, but I wanted to get the basic federal forms done first. The readme also definitely needs some work! It's on my list of future improvements :)
- CameronNemo 6y agoAre there plans for a matrix or checklist for supporting different income types, forms, or some other way to measure support levels? Looks like you are using typescript React here. Any driver for that choice?
- aidangrimshaw 6y agoA checklist of supported forms is something that's in the works. Right now the only supported type of income is W2 wages. The reason I chose React is I wanted the site to be client side only, fitting with SPA, to avoid having a database of social security numbers that could be breached. Typescript is being used to help make sure the right types are being used when the form is submitted. Income should be in number format & names should be in string etc. I've also just found it pleasant to use
- adsharma 6y agoComputing tax Noticed this comment. https://github.com/thegrims/UsTaxes/blob/master/src/irsForms/F1040.ts#L235 https://github.com/thegrims/UsTaxes/blob/master/src/irsForms... I wrote some python a few years ago for this purpose https://github.com/adsharma/tax https://github.com/adsharma/tax
- aidangrimshaw 6y agoThanks! I think that comment is actually from before the computeTax function was fully implemented. If you fill out W2 and spouse information on the website the correct tax rate should be calculated in the printed 1040 form
- wiml 6y agoFor the past ~decade I've mostly been using OpenTaxSolver, a file-based open source US tax utility. It's worked for my uses. It'd be appealing to try to factor out the underlying translation of the tax code and IRS form layout into some very simple DSL that could be used by multiple kinds of software.
- aidangrimshaw 6y agoI agree, at some point I may try to factor out the tax calculation portion and add it as an external npm package or similar. The only similar thing I could find was https://www.npmjs.com/package/taxee-tax-statistics https://www.npmjs.com/package/taxee-tax-statistics but that package has some security vulnerabilities and does not seem to be actively maintained.
- jfim 6y agoYou could just reuse the code from opentaxsolver and run it through emscripten. Here's an old version I made a few years ago: https://github.com/jfim/1040.js https://github.com/jfim/1040.js
- aidangrimshaw 6y agoThanks! I'll check it out
- kergonath 6y agoYou might be interested in the French example, if you don’t know already. They designed the Mlang DSL for tax calculation, and released a bunch of things on GitHub. Here is the compiler: https://hal.inria.fr/hal-03002266v3/document https://hal.inria.fr/hal-03002266v3/document https://github.com/MLanguage/mlang https://github.com/MLanguage/mlang They’ve also open sourced an official calculator, along with web APIs: https://github.com/openfisca/openfisca-france https://github.com/openfisca/openfisca-france
- chaoxu 6y agoYes, having a simple and well defined DSL it might help with tax planning. The difference is it allows one to optimize taxes under certain objective, instead of just enter numbers and see what comes up.
- timoth3y 6y agoThank you for starting this. It's something that needs to exit!
- Stratoscope 6y agoI don't usually comment on typos, but that one could be confusing. I assume you meant "needs to exist", is that right?
- timoth3y 6y ago> exit! exist something that needs to exist. Not sure why I can't edit the original comment.
- Stratoscope 6y agoThere is two hour edit window to edit a comment and it looks like you just missed it. @dang if you happen to see this, I wonder if you may want to fix the typo and delete my followup comments?
- jhabdas 6y agoSuggestion: Add support for Foreign Earned Income Exclusion. If the trend is remote work, focus on the remote workers who would prefer not to pay income taxes.
- CameronNemo 6y agoNo offense but I think they should be focused on common scenarios (income types and deductions that are likely to have many users), methods of verifying correctness, and long term maintainability in the face of a changing tax code. Expat workers seem so niche and there may be different requirements depending in their specific situation.
- jhabdas 6y agoNo offense taken and I see your point. My feeling generally is taxes should be easier, and not require a tool at all. So focusing on a niche could give this app an edge and ideally encourage more people to go out and live their lives and enjoy their money.
- mellavora 6y agoAs an expat worker, a tool like this would be super helpful. Most of the automated tools (paid included) don't support the expat market, so electronic filing is basically impossible. Part of the problem is a pervasive sense that if your are an expat, you are somehow guilty of something or not patriotic enough or some other undefined sin. All of US law seems to expect that you are US resident, yet we apply it globally.
- kilroy123 6y agoI disagree and I actually use the Foreign Earned Income Exclusion every year. My taxes are much more complicated because of this and I think a separate niche tool would be better.
- kingosticks 6y agoAs a US citizen overseas I hate filing pointless US taxes. Sending paper forms half way around the world with no confirmation is archaic. In theory I'd love a tool that could save me wasting my life on this every year. However, would I trust it? Not from a malicious standpoint but it seems there's been lots of changes over the last few years and I'd need to know the tool had been properly updated. To do that I'd have to go and read all the updates/instructions each year (just like I do now) and then also check the tool was correct. I'm not convinced a (free?) non-accountant DIY method helps when the monetary cost of it being outdated/bugged could be significant. I guess you could argue that this is no different from any other open-source software and it's my choice to either personally audit it or assume someone else already has - including all the schedules I use. I'm struggling to understand why I have more of a concern with this compared to, for example, my web browser. Perhaps I am just especially (and irrationally??) fearful of the IRS and the consequence of getting taxes wrong.
- suyash 6y agoOk how do you do state taxes in this? I don't see California option. Also no privacy policy on the hosted one, you really think people will trust giving their sensitive information like that?
- aidangrimshaw 6y agoRight now only federal taxes are implemented but state taxes are in the works! The site is implemented client side & no external API calls are made so the code in the repository is the only thing that would be touching personal information.
- edjw 6y agoIt’d probably be helpful to say on the homepage that no data leaves the user’s computer. As it is, it feels very risky to use the site
- aidangrimshaw 6y agoThat's a good idea
- baby 6y agoDoesn't California have a free of charge webapp for doing your taxes?
- esturk 6y agoYes, it's called CalFile.
- vages 6y agoRelated fun (and sad) fact: In Norway, the tax submission forms are online and so user friendly that you don't need a tax filing program like this. Edit: Here is a link to an explanation for the form, in English, which was revamped in 2020: https://www.skatteetaten.no/en/person/taxes/tax-return/tax-return-person/new-tax-return/ https://www.skatteetaten.no/en/person/taxes/tax-return/tax-r... The submission form is essentially a wizard that asks you questions related to your situation and your past year. Depending on your answers, it expands different parts of the form. Other parts, such as tax exempt donations are automatically filled out based on information that the recipients filled out for you. I visited the UX department of the Norwegian equivalent to the IRS (Skatteetaten), and they had almost every device you could think of (eye-tracking being the most fun). No wonder they made good forms. I understand that some people object politically to taxes, but as long as it's one of the certainties of life (death being the other), I cannot understand why filling out the submission seems so hard in most countries...
- m463 6y agothe good reason: some people are philosophically opposed to easy taxes - people should be painfully aware of the money they are giving to the government. (sort of like folks who have VAT complain about advertised US retail prices which don't include tax) The bad reason: Lobbying by intuit and parties to prevent easy tax preparation. Their ROI on regulatory capture is very very good.
- senux 6y agoThe "good reason" you provided, even if it were an actually thought out consequence of the US system, isn't really delivered. In reality, people are painfully aware of how annoying filing taxes is and hopeful that they will get some money back later. The system is so convoluted, most people pay someone else to take care of it for them. Not to mention, most people barely understand what's happening when they are filing their taxes.
- syshum 6y agoyea, I would much rather the IRS be mandated to send out a Yearly Statement itemizing every dollar spend by Category in the previous year by the US government, at minimum at the Broad Category level (i.e Social Programs, Military, Administration, etc)
- spankalee 6y agoHow would you know that a project like this is computing taxes correctly?
- aidangrimshaw 6y agoA future improvement I am looking into is adding unit tests for tax calculation. If the project gets popular enough I would probably hire an accountant to verify everything.
- sverhagen 6y agoWhen using a well-known site like TurboTax, while I'm totally appalled by their business practices, I have at least an assumption that I can do my taxes half decent (and not too much more than that either). It will be really hard for an open source project to gain enough momentum for me to have the same confidence. For a lot of other open source projects I can just try, and see what happens. But I'm not going to try and see what happens if I'm ever getting audited. And I'm using (begrudgingly) TurboTax exactly because I know nothing about tax code, so the unit tests (yet to be written) would not tell me much. I find this project very sympathetic, though, but I'll have to pass.
- aidangrimshaw 6y agoThat's absolutely fair! I think finding a solution to this will be key to any kind of mainstream adoption
- evolve2k 6y agoA practical self-test would be to enter up your last years tax return as is and compare the assessment to what you actual assessment was. [Having proper unit tests as specs is a much cooler answer.]
- thanksforfish 6y agoVarious tax law changes could make that inaccurate.
- janwillemb 6y agoIn the Netherlands the tagline of the tax authorities used to be "we can't make it funnier, but we can make it easier". Most tax forms are online and pre-filled with data they already have. For most people it's probably a matter of minutes.
- systemvoltage 6y agoI prefer the US style actually. The government assumes flexibility, citizen’s responsibility and their ability to challenge their calculations / deductions by default. When that’s not the case, there is 1040-EZ [1] for people who want to simplify. 1040-EZ can be done in 10 mins max. I also enjoy filing taxes. It’s one of those things that allow you to reflect on your work, how you did, optimize the deductions, and get a reward at the end. It’s fun. [1] https://www.irs.gov/forms-pubs/about-form-1040-ez https://www.irs.gov/forms-pubs/about-form-1040-ez
- timwis 6y agoDon’t forget the state form that you have to do. Add that to your ten minutes and complexity rating.
- da_big_ghey 6y agoImagine having state income tax, couldn't be me. - A Texan
- timvdalen 6y agoNote that you can still do all those things in the Netherlands, you're just comparing the stuff that's already in there to your own documentation. For most people, it's a case of quickly doublechecking all your income/property numbers and then spending some time on items you might be able to deduct.
- c17r 6y agoThe 1040EZ was eliminated in 2018. All you want would still be possible under a system where the govt pre-fills forms. It’s just the 99.9% of Americans who DON’T find it to be fun would get a leg up.
- eralps 6y agoThis is a cool project. As a user entering information in a pdf file with hundreds of input boxes stresses me. Hiding the document until after I enter all the information makes it easier to file tax. But it would not be feasible to use this for most of the people. Tax is often vastly complex and it ignores all those parts. I don't have any capital gain, any properties or any uncommon income such as from rent but even for me this would not work because I get 1099-INT forms from bank (for 1.25$) and there is only W2 option under income. I am also a nonresident so I need to use 1040NR another block there but I am not even talking about that.
- aidangrimshaw 6y agoOther types of income are definitely in the works, W2 income was just implemented first because it's the most common and the least complex. Rare types of income like trusts (K9) will probably never be supported though because of the support burden
- petethepig 6y agoI once tried to model tax forms as code and one thing I learned is that using observable / computable model (as in mobX / knockout.js) works pretty well for computing tax. For example: this.totalDeductions = this.computed(() => { return this.isItemizing() ? this.itemizedDeductionsAdjusted() : this.standardDeduction(); }).form("f1040-131"); // 131 is reference to a field on the tax form this.afterDeductions = this.computed(() => { return this.adjustedGrossIncome() - this.totalDeductions(); }).form("f1040-133") The other thing I learned is that taxes are ridiculously complex.
- jfc_taxman 6y agoimagine submitting your social security number and sensitive PII to a website that was created during covid 2020-05-10T08:44:50Z which doesn't have a contact us page even if it is all in browser. is this a business? do they have insurance?
- renewiltord 6y agoHaha, I am fully convinced now that lots of HNers actually don't know how to use Github. Are you guys not software engineers? Use the source code, my dude. Read it if you want. Run the program if you want. It doesn't even take that long. And like, if you're even halfway competent you know how to run the program without Internet access.
- jfc_taxman 6y agonot everyone is a genius like yourself. you will understand when you are older.
- known 6y agoWhy not print dollars (with expiry date) instead of taxes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Currency_in_circulation#Total_currency_in_circulation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Currency_in_circulation#Total_...
- TZVdosOWs3kZHus 6y agoIn Germany the official application to submit your taxes as a private person to the state has been a windows application for years. Using the app was a 1:1 copy of the official paper forms. Disregarding the complexity of the german tax law, you had a reference to the papers. So it was kind of easy to use the digital counterpart one was accustomed to. It was disimproved by hauling it into a web app, which breaks with all the usual connections you built with the paper equivalent and is the most UX unfriendly monstrosity one could create. From this year on you HAVE TO USE IT. I deeply disrespect this regression, which forces many people into paying a tax office for their private tax submission. I wish for a swedish/norwegian system, where the state courts you for YOUR money. I don't know a single person in Germany which states: "I love doing my tax submissions!" EDIT: Typos plus last paragraph
- moooo99 6y agoI'm on my entry position and I had the pleasure to file my taxes for the first time in my life a few years back. The web app is absolutely awful to use and offers easily the worst user experience I've ever seen. I gave up and decided to seek help by a Lohnsteuerhilfeverein, which is really comfortable but still way cheaper than a tax office. The only annoyance is, that they'll just help you with your tax submission if you're employed or on state benefits. They can't help you if you're self-employed or a freelancer which is somewhat annoying
- mrwnmonm 6y agoI have a company in the US, I was going to avoid paying taxes this year, because I found the process hard and actually we don't have enough money. But as I understand it, you need to work with an accountant, and you need someone to fill it for you if you are outside of the US. Can you fill it online in the US?
- maelito 6y agoIf you read french or want to dive in the mostly english code, you can fork https://github.com/betagouv/mon-entreprise https://github.com/betagouv/mon-entreprise. It doesn't fill tax forms, but it's a set of simulations and a framework to write more models and generate UIs automatically.
- dave333 6y agoWhat I hate about the US system is every year I have to convert my brokerage tax statement into a schedule D line by line or the IRS duns me because they only know my stock sales, not my purchases, which is nuts.
- ketanmaheshwari 6y agoThis is true only when you move some of your money from brokerage account to your bank account right?
- raverbashing 6y agoCan anyone explain how the end wire-format works? Can I just fill an XML and POST it directly to some service (like I assume a paper form would work?)
- geogra4 6y agoI'm happy paying the modest fee for taxact. I do agree America has such an annoying tax system though. Why am I filling out forms if the irs already has this information!
- sokoloff 6y agoFor the most part, they haven’t processed it by the time April 15 rolls around. Your tax transcript is often incomplete until late summer.
- jamexcb 6y agoIn Portugal, because everything you buy you need to provide your VAT number, even if you buy one coffee. And all medical are also electronic. And your employer also submit all the money you earn. Taxes are automatic. You just need to review and add extra stuff if needed. It takes about 10/15 min to do. Of course there are exceptions!
- Gys 6y agoThere is no obligation to give your VAT number. But many do because you have a tiny chance to win a lottery. Yes, they do it even for one coffee (0.70 euro...). I do not understand why there is still no system to easily transfer that fiscal number. For example with a qrcode or RFID. You pay electronically with card, often only by just touching your card, phone or even watch, but then have to give a memorized 9 digit number which the deskperson has to type correctly.
- da_big_ghey 6y agoCan one not purchase anything anonymously? The state is allowed to keep track of everything everyone buys? All for a little tax benefit? That is horrible.
- Denvercoder9 6y ago> Can one not purchase anything anonymously? You can. The VAT number is used to enter you in a lottery where you get a small chance to win some of the taxes you paid back, but that is optional. The goal of the system is to increase compliance with tax laws, by having consumers ask businesses for receipts and pressure them into paying VAT.
- hahahahe 6y agoRemember when Trump promised we can file our taxes via postcard? I remember.
- thanksforfish 6y agoThis is really cool, and I'd like to encourage work like this. I currently don't think I can recommend this to others because: It isn't immediately obvious who is running the site. whois info lists a Canadian privacy company. The site doesn't have an about page. Github has contributor info, which may help. Tax returns need to be private and accurate. If it's hard to verify that the authors are even in the US, it's had to know if this is a scam. I think the project is still young, and the above is likely something addressable. Partnering with some accountants may be a way to fund further development/maintenance through referrals. Good luck!
- 0xbadcafebee 6y agoI like the code of conduct. If you can get a contibutor's guide and TODO list up, I'd bet you can get a couple contributors (especially around tax season). If it ends up covering a lot of the tax code in a few years, maybe the US Digital Service would consider hosting it. I like that it's all browser-based, but the problem is that I, the user, have no way of actually guaranteeing it's not POSTing somewhere else. It's the same problem with browser JS crypto. So I would suggest that in addition to a note explaining how no personal data leaves their browser, also link to a guide on how to download and run it on a local computer. (Is it possible to export a single .html or .js file that a user can open with their browser? And a SHA512 checksum to verify the file?)
- rocketpastsix 6y agoA few things: The title in the HTML is still "React App" There is very little information about this. Why should I trust this? I see the option to print, is that my only option?
- stu2b50 6y agoBecause it's a quite simple react act for which the OP linked the repo instead of the website for a reason? You can scan the source pretty quickly, or run it from a VM with no internet access.
- orblivion 6y agoI've wondered why this didn't exist for a long time. I thought I heard something about an issue of liability in case some part of the process is incorrect, which the "Big Boys" (TurboTax etc) have worked around or priced into their business model. At any rate, I'm grateful, and I will consider using this. I may just have to find a way to doublecheck the work done.
- ketamine__ 6y agoTurbo Tax has a limit on number of trades. And takes a long time to process them. Are they sleep'ing a lot or does it really take a minute for 100 trades? I'm wondering if this can be improved. Especially for cryptocurrency processing. The cryptocurrency tax solutions are woefully inadequate. I was surprised considering how much marketing and polish they have.
- pwg 6y agoRelated project: OpenTaxSolver (http://opentaxsolver.sourceforge.net/ http://opentaxsolver.sourceforge.net/): OpenTaxSolver (OTS) is a free, safe + secure program for calculating Tax Form entries for Federal and State personal income taxes. It automatically fills-out and prints your forms. I've used OTS for the last three or four years now to do my taxes, it does work for the task.
- lostmsu 6y agoThis app would be the prime project for GitHub donations.
- m3kw9 6y agoNot sure if you want to use the actual ustaxes.org website and input your real SSN without any security audits.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- twistel 6y agoSoftware for the people!
- BrandoElFollito 6y agoIn France you get online taxes per-filled with all information. It covers almost all the cases (including when you hire someone to help you at home) so for 99.999% of the popolation it is a matter of 5 clucks, for z total of 2 minutes to fill in your taxes. I actually do not understand why this is not automatic. If you have a special case you would need to act, otherwise it accepts by default. I read a few times about the lobby of tax software companies in the US, it is really weird that they can get away with such practices.
- radicalriddler 6y agoI would recommend having some indicator on which sections of the tax form you've completed, as you're able to skip forward to different sections.
- privatenumber 6y agoFiling taxes is a solved problem in many countries so it's very disappointing it's still so difficult to do in the US. I'm glad to see open source engineers taking matters into their own hands to disrupt this corrupt industry. If milestones and a growth path can be clearly planned and communicated, I think many people would happily chip in to help fund a project like this. Something like this page would be nice: https://k9mail.app/2021/02/14/K-9-Mail-is-looking-for-funding https://k9mail.app/2021/02/14/K-9-Mail-is-looking-for-fundin...
- breck 6y agoLove it! I have a technology that will be really useful for disrupting tax filing in USA. Basic pitch is here: https://github.com/breck7/copypastetaxes https://github.com/breck7/copypastetaxes I'd be interesting in talking about some type of collaboration if you're interested in chatting! Email is in profile.
- greenpizza13 6y agoLove it. True to form, it still has the title "React app." I personally have shipped things to production without changing the CRA boilerplate title :).
- jl2718 6y agoBut good luck getting your returns received by the IRS in the mail. It was 6 months before I gave up and paid someone to e-file for me.
- FlyMoreRockets 6y agoFinally, a free to file tax form. The IRS should do this by default.