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> The last year has been a period in which I've gone from wanting to take part in society, work on big problems like climate change, sacrifice for the greater g

by nextos 6y ago

> The last year has been a period in which I've gone from wanting to take part in society, work on big problems like climate change, sacrifice for the greater good, donate my time and money [...] This might be the biggest problem human race has to solve. How to encourage and reward good behavior for the greater good. Economists would say it's a problem on how to price in externalities. It doesn't matter. I see it everywhere. In academia, most big PIs I've met don't care about pushing knowledge frontiers. It's about their own careers, putting their names on as many manuscripts as possible and securing funding to hire more and more people. In my neighbourhood teens are systematically breaching COVID restrictions with huge illegal parties, spreading disease and therefore causing fatalities. Since the odds of having severe COVID are low for them, they don't care. The local power plant was scamming with their emissions in a VW-like way, by tampering CO2 meters in their chimneys. I could go on and on. How can we address these behaviors? Pg has said somewhere I can't find now that scaling big companies is still an unsolved problem, and that solutions are welcome. I think it's the same class of issue. Once you are big enough to require a layer of middle management, you won't be able to filter out the selfish ones.

esotericn 6y ago
Amusingly, without realising it, your post specifically hits on the reason I'm done with society. It's individualism for me now. Me, my friends, the neighbours. Everyone else, figure it out, I'm not your pawn.
- ctdonath 6y ago
  Hence the American Revolution and subsequent Constitution: enough government to keep the basics together, otherwise do whatever you want. ...and occasional civil wars (small and large) reminding leaders to keep it that way.
  - krapp 6y ago
    >...and occasional civil wars (small and large) reminding leaders to keep it that way. And yet, oddly enough, countries with regular civil unrest tend not to be bastions of civil liberty, but violent mafia-run hellholes.
wongarsu 6y ago
This is something East-Germans are lamenting about when comparing East-Germany to West-Germany. Of course some of this self-serving behaviour exists everywhere, but as a society or even community you can put a focus on the "we" or on the "me". Our society happens to mostly stress the "me" part, which leads to the outcomes you describe.
- refurb 6y ago
  The basis of capitalism is that under most circumstances, focusing on “me” also produces the best outcomes for “us”. And a pure focus on “us” can lead to poorer outcomes as there is no immediate reward for the person doing the work.
  - wongarsu 6y ago
    The economist would say all you need is a proper set of incentives to ensure that what's best for the individual is best for the community. The AI-safety researcher would say that every set of incentives you find will have loopholes, and those will be exploited. I'm not claiming capitalism doesn't work (at least for many definitions of capitalism, and work), but we should acknowledge its drawbacks, acknowledge strengths of other systems that otherwise failed, and hope to find a better model that has similar advantages with fewer of the drawbacks.
    - refurb 6y ago
      Oh I don’t disagree. Capitalism without regulation can result in poor outcomes for some markets. As you said, regulations can help but also create loopholes that are quickly exploited. But I think it’s disingenuous to say that a system focused on “we” suddenly solves all the issues with capitalism (which is what the grandparent was trying to infer).
    - pasquinelli 6y ago
      other systems don't just happen to fail. they were strangled by capitalism. given that, how do you really expect to find a better model with fewer drawbacks and put it in place?
ericmcer 6y ago
Well I mean, economic systems that attempt to leverage human benevolence have all failed. Capitalism at its root leverages our base qualities (greed, fear, desire, etc.) to motivate members to be productive. It has been the most successful system thus far, despite its many, many faults.
- hezag 6y ago
  These attempts haven't failed because they are intrinsically worse, but because they were systematically threatened and sabotaged by the greed-driven players.
  - imtringued 6y ago
    Greed doesn't go away in a non capitalist system.
- ajmadesc 6y ago
  Don't understand why this is down voted, it's being one paycheck away from poverty that keep 70% of Americans from telling off their bosses
  - loopz 6y ago
    The post includes opposite thoughts, and such gets downvoted on HN.
  - TeMPOraL 6y ago
    It's funny how this goes. Capitalism is great because it promises individual freedom and giving everyone what they wants, while also holding 70% of Americans at economical gunpoint, justifying that with "well if everyone truly got what they want, nobody would produce and civilization would collapse". Perhaps the capitalists should drop the talk about freedom and voluntary trade. Or we need a new word for "freedom" that doesn't classify structurally coerced choices as "free".
    - imtringued 6y ago
ip26 6y ago
Having kids was a huge perspective shift towards doing my part & seeing the inherent value in other people. No silver bullet, of course, as plenty of people have kids yet act only for their own self interest. But it is interesting to wonder if decreased birth rates could be both a symptom and cause of decreasing collectivism.
- pdimitar 6y ago
  I am not sure where you're living but where I am birth rates are declining because people literally cannot guarantee they'll have money to feed their kids. Not a very glorious or elaborate response, granted, but Occam's Razor must never be ignored. "Decreasing collectivism" is only stemming from "every man for himself" because the economy is objectively getting worse and worse for most folks out there. It's a very logical outcome.

by nextos 6y ago

esotericn 6y ago

Amusingly, without realising it, your post specifically hits on the reason I'm done with society. It's individualism for me now. Me, my friends, the neighbours. Everyone else, figure it out, I'm not your pawn.

ctdonath 6y ago
Hence the American Revolution and subsequent Constitution: enough government to keep the basics together, otherwise do whatever you want. ...and occasional civil wars (small and large) reminding leaders to keep it that way.
- krapp 6y ago
  >...and occasional civil wars (small and large) reminding leaders to keep it that way. And yet, oddly enough, countries with regular civil unrest tend not to be bastions of civil liberty, but violent mafia-run hellholes.

wongarsu 6y ago

This is something East-Germans are lamenting about when comparing East-Germany to West-Germany. Of course some of this self-serving behaviour exists everywhere, but as a society or even community you can put a focus on the "we" or on the "me". Our society happens to mostly stress the "me" part, which leads to the outcomes you describe.

refurb 6y ago
The basis of capitalism is that under most circumstances, focusing on “me” also produces the best outcomes for “us”. And a pure focus on “us” can lead to poorer outcomes as there is no immediate reward for the person doing the work.
- wongarsu 6y ago
  The economist would say all you need is a proper set of incentives to ensure that what's best for the individual is best for the community. The AI-safety researcher would say that every set of incentives you find will have loopholes, and those will be exploited. I'm not claiming capitalism doesn't work (at least for many definitions of capitalism, and work), but we should acknowledge its drawbacks, acknowledge strengths of other systems that otherwise failed, and hope to find a better model that has similar advantages with fewer of the drawbacks.
  - refurb 6y ago
    Oh I don’t disagree. Capitalism without regulation can result in poor outcomes for some markets. As you said, regulations can help but also create loopholes that are quickly exploited. But I think it’s disingenuous to say that a system focused on “we” suddenly solves all the issues with capitalism (which is what the grandparent was trying to infer).
  - pasquinelli 6y ago
    other systems don't just happen to fail. they were strangled by capitalism. given that, how do you really expect to find a better model with fewer drawbacks and put it in place?

ericmcer 6y ago

Well I mean, economic systems that attempt to leverage human benevolence have all failed. Capitalism at its root leverages our base qualities (greed, fear, desire, etc.) to motivate members to be productive. It has been the most successful system thus far, despite its many, many faults.

hezag 6y ago
These attempts haven't failed because they are intrinsically worse, but because they were systematically threatened and sabotaged by the greed-driven players.
- imtringued 6y ago
  Greed doesn't go away in a non capitalist system.
ajmadesc 6y ago
Don't understand why this is down voted, it's being one paycheck away from poverty that keep 70% of Americans from telling off their bosses
- loopz 6y ago
  The post includes opposite thoughts, and such gets downvoted on HN.
- TeMPOraL 6y ago
  It's funny how this goes. Capitalism is great because it promises individual freedom and giving everyone what they wants, while also holding 70% of Americans at economical gunpoint, justifying that with "well if everyone truly got what they want, nobody would produce and civilization would collapse". Perhaps the capitalists should drop the talk about freedom and voluntary trade. Or we need a new word for "freedom" that doesn't classify structurally coerced choices as "free".
  - imtringued 6y ago

ip26 6y ago

Having kids was a huge perspective shift towards doing my part & seeing the inherent value in other people. No silver bullet, of course, as plenty of people have kids yet act only for their own self interest. But it is interesting to wonder if decreased birth rates could be both a symptom and cause of decreasing collectivism.

pdimitar 6y ago
I am not sure where you're living but where I am birth rates are declining because people literally cannot guarantee they'll have money to feed their kids. Not a very glorious or elaborate response, granted, but Occam's Razor must never be ignored. "Decreasing collectivism" is only stemming from "every man for himself" because the economy is objectively getting worse and worse for most folks out there. It's a very logical outcome.