8 ms·

Not just churches, schools. My kids can do zoom a few times a day. But what do you do if you’re poor? Or in a troubled home?

ipsocannibal 6y ago
I guess you do nothing but this doesn't seem like that much of a change if you were poor or disadvantaged to begin with. Worrying about the lack of access to things like Zoom seem to be very "first world problems". We should worry about the lack of access to vaccines, adequate housing, capital, social services etc.
- AndrewDucker 6y ago
  The point is that Zoom is how schools are working right now. No Zoom - no School.
- adamcstephens 6y ago
  Broadband access is very much a requirement in America, and needs to be on the same list as housing, food, medical care, etc.
- social_quotient 6y ago
  I think it’s slightly different. Zoom allows to cross from our work/school personas in to people’s personal lives. For some people it’s nbd, for others it’s a nightmare they just want to escape from each day they leave. It’s everything from a junky background and poor lighting to a drunk parent. The ability for all of to put on our uniforms and face the world in the way we choose is vastly different from the vulnerable intimacy that zoom affords.
- MarcScott 6y ago
  It's a massive change. For many children, school is an escape from troubled and sometimes abusive home lives. It's a place where they feel safe, communicate with adults that care for them, talk to friends, get support and in many countries get a decent meal once a day.
- softwaredoug 6y ago
  School is how US manifests many social services. If you're abused, teachers, etc are mandatory reporters. You get free and reduced lunch there. It's a venue outside of your perhaps troubled family to socialize and build relationships.
  - testesttest 6y ago
    2nd this. I'm particular, for better or worse, US schools serve as daycare for the lower and even mid income families in the US.
    - softwaredoug 6y ago
      Definitely. We can spend ~$50 per child per week, and have subsidized after school care. Some parents can get it for next to nothing. The kids have a school full of activities, a gym, a playground, and friends, which is better than they’d get at home for a more expensive sitter.
umvi 6y ago
> But what do you do if you’re poor? Or in a troubled home? You stop going to school. There's a teenager next door who lives in a troubled home and from talking to him it sounds like he hasn't really attended school since the beginning of 2020 because there are no consequences for not showing up in zoom and his single mom is too tired to make sure he's attending his classes or to homeschool him...
- toomuchtodo 6y ago
  Systemic failures all the way down.
  - jjcon 6y ago
    Just sounds like bad parenting to me
    - toomuchtodo 6y ago
      Have you experienced being an only parent while trying to support a household with no safety net?
      - randompwd 6y ago
        Regardless of the above statement, this is such a silly argument. You have to experience something to have an opinion on it now?
        toomuchtodo 6y ago
        How can your opinion have any value without experience or education behind it?
        testesttest 6y ago
        No but you shouldn't ignore those that have experience and you should not assume you know what is best for others.
        6y ago
MarcScott 6y ago
And there's more. You could be fairly affluent and have four children, each with their own console and mobile phone, but struggle to use corporate video conferencing software for them all in a single household, especially when parents and guardians also work from home. How many families have six computers? How about children with SEN, who are now deprived of their teaching assistants while learning at home, and need an adult to assist them in their learning for five hours a day? Then there's bandwidth. I am luckily able to provide computers to my two children, but when myself, my spouse and my kids are all online at the same time, as well as every other person in our estate, there are understandable capacity issues. What about families that have access to technology, but not the physical space to allow all their children to home school and their parents to work from home simultaneously? How can you attend online lessons when you share a room with a sibling? Or have a baby screaming in the background while you're trying to learn algebra. I'm not particularly bothered that religious communities are struggling at the moment. I am concerned that a generation of children are missing out on an education that most countries consider a fundamental right, and that the most disadvantaged and disaffected children are suffering the most.
- leesalminen 6y ago
  > I'm not particularly bothered that religious communities are struggling at the moment. Would it be fair to assume religion doesn’t play a central role in your life? It doesn’t in mine, but I have lots of family to whom it does. And they’re hurting. Practicing ones’ religion is also a fundamental right. For many, education is equally as important as religion.
  - testesttest 6y ago
    Yea, hacker news is pretty anti religion and people generally don't care about things that don't effect them or their views. I am also not religious but I find this sentiment sad as many of us are in the position to help bridge the digital divide.
    - pbourke 6y ago
      Many of us do not want to enable activities or messages that we are morally opposed to.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
BrandoElFollito 6y ago
The general quality of teaching is lower too. My perspective: French, cosy western suburb of Paris, 1GB fiber, computers. Children in excellent schools, with excellent results. Comes COVID. After the first week where the French education was frantically trying to find a way for courses to be held (they bought in 2019 and earlier "platforms" that were supposed to provide "online teaching" and which failed so miserably that there should be some penal investigations), teachers started to find solutions themselves. Zoom, some French platforms, mail etc. When our president announced that schools were closed, you could hear a huge yell in all households (including mine) and I let the children celebrate a day or two. And then I ensured that they were working. I would say that the efficiency was about 1/3 of the one they had at school. They are very good pupils so this will not have any adverse effect - but for parents that cannot turn into all-knowing teachers in a day, this is very difficult. We saw plenty of children that simply stopped attending the courses. We also saw many teachers that simply stopped showing up. There is already (at least in France) a large gap in the ability of children to get a good education. Schools are at least trying to narrow it down. With COVID the efforts are vain and there could be huge repercussions for the children. This also goes the other way round. Last year "end of high-school exam" (baccalauréat) is said to have been given for free. This is not fair to other years, and the pupils that got it may be seen as "the nes that got it for free, so they are nto as good as the others". I am so happy that my children want to learn on their own and that I do not have to constantly be behind their backs, but this is partly (a big part) the result of the schools they go to, that instill this approach. Others may not be so happy.
- noir_lord 6y ago
  > cannot turn into all-knowing teachers in a day, this is very difficult. This is a key point, many parents simply can't teach material say 10 up because it's been 20-30 years since they did that material or they are not academically minded in the first place. My partner and I have split it between us as much as we can, I take the math, science and history, she takes English and the other subjects - that mostly works but that's because I am as many of us on here are a geek. I don't know that many of my friends would understand well enough to teach their kids.
analog31 6y ago
In my view, among the many arguments to be made for higher vigilance among the general public (such as mask wearing, limiting social gatherings, etc.), it's to help lower the risk of operating the schools. I'd like to hear my local leaders say: "Our community has gotten COVID under control, let's let the kids go back to school."
- retrac 6y ago
  Many of the level-headed people I've been listening to through this have been emphasizing adult sacrifices for the sake of as much normality for our children as possible. They're right, I think.
uncledave 6y ago
We’ve got a fairly decent network here at our local schools (UK) giving older recycled hardware out to people and organising WiFi sharing with neighbours and stuff. The schools and education authority are providing people with laptops but there are supply problems for obvious reasons at the moment. Building better communities is the answer.
vondur 6y ago
In my state the children are issued ChromeBooks and if needed, Cellular Data hotspots. If you are in a troubled home, then all bets are off. Kids need to be back in school.
Noos 6y ago
The hilarity to me is watching people who always derided school as a remnant of the industrial age that denied creativity and could easily be replaced by Khan academy or what have you realize during Covid just how important that model was to actually educate people. Pretty much anyone who was against homeschooling could have told you that yes, home-based education was always biased for the people who had enough resources to compensate for the ineffectiveness of that teaching method, and relied on the children also being intelligent self-starters too. Now that it is more or less forced, or forced "radio schooling" in a way, we are seeing people become suspiciously quiet about the matter.
- watwut 6y ago
  Not on HN. Pretty much any thread about school has people strongly claim about how covid shown that school is just babysitting and most def hellhole. I am not encountering that sentiment outside of HN. Then again, HN is has also unusually strong sub-community of homeschoolers.
  - rhino369 6y ago
    I also think there that among programmers there are an unusually large number of "self-teachers." How is CS taught? By giving a problem set and having you try it out yourself. These types of people tend to think that structured learning is bad. But many other types of people learn better in a structured environment.
    - watwut 6y ago
      I dont even think HN represents "programmers" in general. Most of people I talk and socialize with are programmers. When I say I dont encounter that sentiment outside of HN, it includes them. And CS is not taught purely by giving you problem set that you try alone. A lot of effort goes into trying to attract children by gamified programming systems or by nice graphics, into exercises that are actually age appropriate and so on. There is self learning, but there are massive parts of it that are not self learning. And the self learning part is not even the thing that makes programming special. People self learning is not something that only programmers would do.

ipsocannibal 6y ago

I guess you do nothing but this doesn't seem like that much of a change if you were poor or disadvantaged to begin with. Worrying about the lack of access to things like Zoom seem to be very "first world problems". We should worry about the lack of access to vaccines, adequate housing, capital, social services etc.

AndrewDucker 6y ago
The point is that Zoom is how schools are working right now. No Zoom - no School.
adamcstephens 6y ago
Broadband access is very much a requirement in America, and needs to be on the same list as housing, food, medical care, etc.
social_quotient 6y ago
I think it’s slightly different. Zoom allows to cross from our work/school personas in to people’s personal lives. For some people it’s nbd, for others it’s a nightmare they just want to escape from each day they leave. It’s everything from a junky background and poor lighting to a drunk parent. The ability for all of to put on our uniforms and face the world in the way we choose is vastly different from the vulnerable intimacy that zoom affords.
MarcScott 6y ago
It's a massive change. For many children, school is an escape from troubled and sometimes abusive home lives. It's a place where they feel safe, communicate with adults that care for them, talk to friends, get support and in many countries get a decent meal once a day.
softwaredoug 6y ago
School is how US manifests many social services. If you're abused, teachers, etc are mandatory reporters. You get free and reduced lunch there. It's a venue outside of your perhaps troubled family to socialize and build relationships.
- testesttest 6y ago
  2nd this. I'm particular, for better or worse, US schools serve as daycare for the lower and even mid income families in the US.
  - softwaredoug 6y ago
    Definitely. We can spend ~$50 per child per week, and have subsidized after school care. Some parents can get it for next to nothing. The kids have a school full of activities, a gym, a playground, and friends, which is better than they’d get at home for a more expensive sitter.

umvi 6y ago

> But what do you do if you’re poor? Or in a troubled home? You stop going to school. There's a teenager next door who lives in a troubled home and from talking to him it sounds like he hasn't really attended school since the beginning of 2020 because there are no consequences for not showing up in zoom and his single mom is too tired to make sure he's attending his classes or to homeschool him...

toomuchtodo 6y ago
Systemic failures all the way down.
- jjcon 6y ago
  Just sounds like bad parenting to me
  - toomuchtodo 6y ago
    Have you experienced being an only parent while trying to support a household with no safety net?
    - randompwd 6y ago
      Regardless of the above statement, this is such a silly argument. You have to experience something to have an opinion on it now?
      - toomuchtodo 6y ago
        How can your opinion have any value without experience or education behind it?
      - testesttest 6y ago
        No but you shouldn't ignore those that have experience and you should not assume you know what is best for others.
      - 6y ago

MarcScott 6y ago

And there's more. You could be fairly affluent and have four children, each with their own console and mobile phone, but struggle to use corporate video conferencing software for them all in a single household, especially when parents and guardians also work from home. How many families have six computers? How about children with SEN, who are now deprived of their teaching assistants while learning at home, and need an adult to assist them in their learning for five hours a day? Then there's bandwidth. I am luckily able to provide computers to my two children, but when myself, my spouse and my kids are all online at the same time, as well as every other person in our estate, there are understandable capacity issues. What about families that have access to technology, but not the physical space to allow all their children to home school and their parents to work from home simultaneously? How can you attend online lessons when you share a room with a sibling? Or have a baby screaming in the background while you're trying to learn algebra. I'm not particularly bothered that religious communities are struggling at the moment. I am concerned that a generation of children are missing out on an education that most countries consider a fundamental right, and that the most disadvantaged and disaffected children are suffering the most.

leesalminen 6y ago
> I'm not particularly bothered that religious communities are struggling at the moment. Would it be fair to assume religion doesn’t play a central role in your life? It doesn’t in mine, but I have lots of family to whom it does. And they’re hurting. Practicing ones’ religion is also a fundamental right. For many, education is equally as important as religion.
- testesttest 6y ago
  Yea, hacker news is pretty anti religion and people generally don't care about things that don't effect them or their views. I am also not religious but I find this sentiment sad as many of us are in the position to help bridge the digital divide.
  - pbourke 6y ago
    Many of us do not want to enable activities or messages that we are morally opposed to.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

BrandoElFollito 6y ago

The general quality of teaching is lower too. My perspective: French, cosy western suburb of Paris, 1GB fiber, computers. Children in excellent schools, with excellent results. Comes COVID. After the first week where the French education was frantically trying to find a way for courses to be held (they bought in 2019 and earlier "platforms" that were supposed to provide "online teaching" and which failed so miserably that there should be some penal investigations), teachers started to find solutions themselves. Zoom, some French platforms, mail etc. When our president announced that schools were closed, you could hear a huge yell in all households (including mine) and I let the children celebrate a day or two. And then I ensured that they were working. I would say that the efficiency was about 1/3 of the one they had at school. They are very good pupils so this will not have any adverse effect - but for parents that cannot turn into all-knowing teachers in a day, this is very difficult. We saw plenty of children that simply stopped attending the courses. We also saw many teachers that simply stopped showing up. There is already (at least in France) a large gap in the ability of children to get a good education. Schools are at least trying to narrow it down. With COVID the efforts are vain and there could be huge repercussions for the children. This also goes the other way round. Last year "end of high-school exam" (baccalauréat) is said to have been given for free. This is not fair to other years, and the pupils that got it may be seen as "the nes that got it for free, so they are nto as good as the others". I am so happy that my children want to learn on their own and that I do not have to constantly be behind their backs, but this is partly (a big part) the result of the schools they go to, that instill this approach. Others may not be so happy.

noir_lord 6y ago
> cannot turn into all-knowing teachers in a day, this is very difficult. This is a key point, many parents simply can't teach material say 10 up because it's been 20-30 years since they did that material or they are not academically minded in the first place. My partner and I have split it between us as much as we can, I take the math, science and history, she takes English and the other subjects - that mostly works but that's because I am as many of us on here are a geek. I don't know that many of my friends would understand well enough to teach their kids.

analog31 6y ago

In my view, among the many arguments to be made for higher vigilance among the general public (such as mask wearing, limiting social gatherings, etc.), it's to help lower the risk of operating the schools. I'd like to hear my local leaders say: "Our community has gotten COVID under control, let's let the kids go back to school."

retrac 6y ago
Many of the level-headed people I've been listening to through this have been emphasizing adult sacrifices for the sake of as much normality for our children as possible. They're right, I think.

uncledave 6y ago

We’ve got a fairly decent network here at our local schools (UK) giving older recycled hardware out to people and organising WiFi sharing with neighbours and stuff. The schools and education authority are providing people with laptops but there are supply problems for obvious reasons at the moment. Building better communities is the answer.

vondur 6y ago

In my state the children are issued ChromeBooks and if needed, Cellular Data hotspots. If you are in a troubled home, then all bets are off. Kids need to be back in school.

Noos 6y ago

The hilarity to me is watching people who always derided school as a remnant of the industrial age that denied creativity and could easily be replaced by Khan academy or what have you realize during Covid just how important that model was to actually educate people. Pretty much anyone who was against homeschooling could have told you that yes, home-based education was always biased for the people who had enough resources to compensate for the ineffectiveness of that teaching method, and relied on the children also being intelligent self-starters too. Now that it is more or less forced, or forced "radio schooling" in a way, we are seeing people become suspiciously quiet about the matter.

watwut 6y ago
Not on HN. Pretty much any thread about school has people strongly claim about how covid shown that school is just babysitting and most def hellhole. I am not encountering that sentiment outside of HN. Then again, HN is has also unusually strong sub-community of homeschoolers.
- rhino369 6y ago
  I also think there that among programmers there are an unusually large number of "self-teachers." How is CS taught? By giving a problem set and having you try it out yourself. These types of people tend to think that structured learning is bad. But many other types of people learn better in a structured environment.
  - watwut 6y ago
    I dont even think HN represents "programmers" in general. Most of people I talk and socialize with are programmers. When I say I dont encounter that sentiment outside of HN, it includes them. And CS is not taught purely by giving you problem set that you try alone. A lot of effort goes into trying to attract children by gamified programming systems or by nice graphics, into exercises that are actually age appropriate and so on. There is self learning, but there are massive parts of it that are not self learning. And the self learning part is not even the thing that makes programming special. People self learning is not something that only programmers would do.