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Are you claiming there's some wealthy Vegan lobby that's paying scientists blame meat for health problems? You really think that vegan food producers are more p

by kar5pt 6y ago

Are you claiming there's some wealthy Vegan lobby that's paying scientists blame meat for health problems? You really think that vegan food producers are more powerful than the meat and dairy industries?

tbihl 6y ago
"Perhaps" = "claiming"?
- d26900 6y ago
  Maybe the person should have used: "suggesting"? Anyhow, I share the sentiment that the "vegan lobby" is an easy target to pick.
sebmellen 6y ago
Soy and corn are the largest and most destructive monoculture crops in America, though a large amount is used as animal feed. Nonetheless, "veganism" does not imply good agricultural practices or less money or power — likely the opposite. Do not think of veganism as your local farmers market. Think of it as mostly destructive monoculture farming. Healthy ecosystems require ruminants and other animals and plants to thrive. Modern agriculture is usually split up — barren feed lots, barren corn fields, etc. Regenerative agriculture like what the Savory Institute espouses is what's needed. Vegans are also a great target market and quite lucrative. People who can afford to be vegan will pay higher prices for lower cost goods. I wouldn't be surprised to see lobbying from vegan food companies.
- Avshalom 6y ago
  Soy and corn in america is the meat industry
  - phkahler 6y ago
    Which makes them commodities unless you can upsell them as health foods.
  - reedjosh 6y ago
    Yes, and I've started buying grass meats fed from local farms. It does mean that meat is more of a luxury, but I think food should be quality over quantity.
- Pyramus 6y ago
  > People who can afford to be vegan will pay higher prices for lower cost goods. It's kind of funny how "vegan" has become a marketing term to the extent that vegan food is supposed to be expensive. Vegan food is the cheapest food there is and powers nutrition on a global scale. Think wheat, rice, potatoes, beans, every single vegetable, all fruit, and products made thereof, bread, pasta, noodles, oils, etc. In most parts of the world the standard diet is predominantly plant-based and meat is a luxury. It used to be the same in Europe - my grandparents had meat at most once a week, usually on a Sunday.
  - sebmellen 6y ago
    Oh, agreed, for sure. My grandparents were Germans who grew up during the war, and for them meat was seen as a great luxury — even bread was seen as a speciality. But in the US (and I think it is mostly an American phenomenon), veganism has taken on a sort of strange alter ego as a life of expensive vegan donuts and vegan restaurants that charge (no joke) $18 for a small sandwich. So I think it's important to differentiate between the two kinds of veganism — the expensive fad diet kind, and the one borne out of necessity.
  - robryan 6y ago
    The expensive bit is that most vegans want to broadly maintain the flavors and textures of a animal products diet without the animal products.
TaupeRanger 6y ago
Seriously? The "nutrition" industry is absolutely huge and banks off of the fact that we don't really know anything about diet, except that trans fats are bad, lots of refined sugar is bad, and folic acid is important for pregnant women. They point the finger at all manner of foods from red meats to fruits and everything in between, in order to sell supplements, fad diets, overpriced holistic/integrative medicine sessions, etc.
- Ma8ee 6y ago
  There’s a lot of trends and over interpreted small studies within popular nutrition science, but the basics are quite solid and quite simple: eat less, eat much more vegetables and fruit. There’s also solid evidence that too much red meat causes cancer.
  - Pyramus 6y ago
    Exactly. Here is another point in case: Go to the website of whichever body governs nutrition in your country (or the WHO) and see what they recommend and why. There is no global conspiracy against red meat, it's simply our current scientific understanding.
    - TaupeRanger 6y ago
      No one said it's a conspiracy. It is clearly a misunderstanding of our actual knowledge, which is why we have studies that show everything from associations between red meat and cancer, no effects whatsoever between the two, and even reduction in some cancers from red meat consumption. That is standard across the entire field of nutrition epidemiology, but "nutritionists" and health "experts" rely on the fact that, if they cite a single study showing a cancer connection, people will eat it up and accept it as fact.
      - Pyramus 6y ago
        I'm not sure what your point is: Do you disagree that red meat is a carcinogen? The fact that we have studies that show the full spectrum of association is exactly what you would expect, and, assuming no biases, is a strong indication that it's not the most powerful carcinogen there is. I would even hypothesise that for most people simply eating more vegetables and greens is more beneficial than leaving out red meat and not changing vegetable intake. Also you are free to take as many risks as you want (mostly), and there are plenty of people smoking, drinking tons of soda etc.
Firerouge 6y ago
Why is that hard to imagine? The plant based meat industry alone had a $4 billion market in 2020, about 39% of which is in the US, and it's total is forecasted to grow to $14 billion by 2027. [1] While not a direct comparison, the US meat market is around a $7 billion annual market. [2] [1] https://www.grandviewresearch.com/industry-analysis/plant-based-meat-market https://www.grandviewresearch.com/industry-analysis/plant-ba... [2] https://www.ibisworld.com/industry-statistics/market-size/meat-markets-united-states/ https://www.ibisworld.com/industry-statistics/market-size/me...
- TheRealSteel 6y ago
  That doesn't make sense to me at all. You're telling me the plant-based meat market in America is 57% of the size of real-meat, and that the average spend on meat in the US is only 20$ per person per year?
- casefields 6y ago
  >The market value of the processed meat is expected to rise from 714 billion U.S. dollars in 2016 to over 1.5 trillion dollars by 2022. https://www.statista.com/topics/4880/global-meat-industry/ https://www.statista.com/topics/4880/global-meat-industry/
  - Firerouge 6y ago
    It looks like the ibisworld link might be conflating US exports of meat with the US market total
jdminhbg 6y ago
> You really think that vegan food producers are more powerful than the meat and dairy industries? The corn lobby is definitely more powerful than meat or dairy are, yes.
- shipman05 6y ago
  Why would the corn lobby be anti meat and dairy? 1/3 of the corn grown in the US is used for livestock feed.
  - jdminhbg 6y ago
    I don't believe that I said they were, I just said they were more powerful.
tomatotomato37 6y ago
Vegan food producers are just big agriculture, so it actually isn't that unrealistic that some multinational soy or corn corporation is pushing this because they make more money from food additives than animal feed.
simonsarris 6y ago
One has much bigger profit margins, better automation, and responds better to scale. This is extra true if you can get people to pay a premium for plant-based meat or oat milk. Just make sure they know they're making the world a better place at your 32.30% gross margin (Beyond Meat). Compare to the gross margins of even big meat players like Pilgrims Pride or Sanderson Farms at 5-6%.

by kar5pt 6y ago

tbihl 6y ago

"Perhaps" = "claiming"?

d26900 6y ago
Maybe the person should have used: "suggesting"? Anyhow, I share the sentiment that the "vegan lobby" is an easy target to pick.

sebmellen 6y ago

Soy and corn are the largest and most destructive monoculture crops in America, though a large amount is used as animal feed. Nonetheless, "veganism" does not imply good agricultural practices or less money or power — likely the opposite. Do not think of veganism as your local farmers market. Think of it as mostly destructive monoculture farming. Healthy ecosystems require ruminants and other animals and plants to thrive. Modern agriculture is usually split up — barren feed lots, barren corn fields, etc. Regenerative agriculture like what the Savory Institute espouses is what's needed. Vegans are also a great target market and quite lucrative. People who can afford to be vegan will pay higher prices for lower cost goods. I wouldn't be surprised to see lobbying from vegan food companies.

Avshalom 6y ago
Soy and corn in america is the meat industry
- phkahler 6y ago
  Which makes them commodities unless you can upsell them as health foods.
- reedjosh 6y ago
  Yes, and I've started buying grass meats fed from local farms. It does mean that meat is more of a luxury, but I think food should be quality over quantity.
Pyramus 6y ago
> People who can afford to be vegan will pay higher prices for lower cost goods. It's kind of funny how "vegan" has become a marketing term to the extent that vegan food is supposed to be expensive. Vegan food is the cheapest food there is and powers nutrition on a global scale. Think wheat, rice, potatoes, beans, every single vegetable, all fruit, and products made thereof, bread, pasta, noodles, oils, etc. In most parts of the world the standard diet is predominantly plant-based and meat is a luxury. It used to be the same in Europe - my grandparents had meat at most once a week, usually on a Sunday.
- sebmellen 6y ago
  Oh, agreed, for sure. My grandparents were Germans who grew up during the war, and for them meat was seen as a great luxury — even bread was seen as a speciality. But in the US (and I think it is mostly an American phenomenon), veganism has taken on a sort of strange alter ego as a life of expensive vegan donuts and vegan restaurants that charge (no joke) $18 for a small sandwich. So I think it's important to differentiate between the two kinds of veganism — the expensive fad diet kind, and the one borne out of necessity.
- robryan 6y ago
  The expensive bit is that most vegans want to broadly maintain the flavors and textures of a animal products diet without the animal products.

TaupeRanger 6y ago

Seriously? The "nutrition" industry is absolutely huge and banks off of the fact that we don't really know anything about diet, except that trans fats are bad, lots of refined sugar is bad, and folic acid is important for pregnant women. They point the finger at all manner of foods from red meats to fruits and everything in between, in order to sell supplements, fad diets, overpriced holistic/integrative medicine sessions, etc.

Ma8ee 6y ago
There’s a lot of trends and over interpreted small studies within popular nutrition science, but the basics are quite solid and quite simple: eat less, eat much more vegetables and fruit. There’s also solid evidence that too much red meat causes cancer.
- Pyramus 6y ago
  Exactly. Here is another point in case: Go to the website of whichever body governs nutrition in your country (or the WHO) and see what they recommend and why. There is no global conspiracy against red meat, it's simply our current scientific understanding.
  - TaupeRanger 6y ago
    No one said it's a conspiracy. It is clearly a misunderstanding of our actual knowledge, which is why we have studies that show everything from associations between red meat and cancer, no effects whatsoever between the two, and even reduction in some cancers from red meat consumption. That is standard across the entire field of nutrition epidemiology, but "nutritionists" and health "experts" rely on the fact that, if they cite a single study showing a cancer connection, people will eat it up and accept it as fact.
    - Pyramus 6y ago
      I'm not sure what your point is: Do you disagree that red meat is a carcinogen? The fact that we have studies that show the full spectrum of association is exactly what you would expect, and, assuming no biases, is a strong indication that it's not the most powerful carcinogen there is. I would even hypothesise that for most people simply eating more vegetables and greens is more beneficial than leaving out red meat and not changing vegetable intake. Also you are free to take as many risks as you want (mostly), and there are plenty of people smoking, drinking tons of soda etc.

Firerouge 6y ago

Why is that hard to imagine? The plant based meat industry alone had a $4 billion market in 2020, about 39% of which is in the US, and it's total is forecasted to grow to $14 billion by 2027. [1] While not a direct comparison, the US meat market is around a $7 billion annual market. [2] [1] https://www.grandviewresearch.com/industry-analysis/plant-based-meat-market https://www.grandviewresearch.com/industry-analysis/plant-ba... [2] https://www.ibisworld.com/industry-statistics/market-size/meat-markets-united-states/ https://www.ibisworld.com/industry-statistics/market-size/me...

TheRealSteel 6y ago
That doesn't make sense to me at all. You're telling me the plant-based meat market in America is 57% of the size of real-meat, and that the average spend on meat in the US is only 20$ per person per year?
casefields 6y ago
>The market value of the processed meat is expected to rise from 714 billion U.S. dollars in 2016 to over 1.5 trillion dollars by 2022. https://www.statista.com/topics/4880/global-meat-industry/ https://www.statista.com/topics/4880/global-meat-industry/
- Firerouge 6y ago
  It looks like the ibisworld link might be conflating US exports of meat with the US market total

jdminhbg 6y ago

> You really think that vegan food producers are more powerful than the meat and dairy industries? The corn lobby is definitely more powerful than meat or dairy are, yes.

shipman05 6y ago
Why would the corn lobby be anti meat and dairy? 1/3 of the corn grown in the US is used for livestock feed.
- jdminhbg 6y ago
  I don't believe that I said they were, I just said they were more powerful.

tomatotomato37 6y ago

Vegan food producers are just big agriculture, so it actually isn't that unrealistic that some multinational soy or corn corporation is pushing this because they make more money from food additives than animal feed.

simonsarris 6y ago

One has much bigger profit margins, better automation, and responds better to scale. This is extra true if you can get people to pay a premium for plant-based meat or oat milk. Just make sure they know they're making the world a better place at your 32.30% gross margin (Beyond Meat). Compare to the gross margins of even big meat players like Pilgrims Pride or Sanderson Farms at 5-6%.