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AirPods Causing Tinnitus (600+ reports since 2019?)

233 points by albertTJames 6y ago

akersten 6y ago
I've always wanted to ask an audiologist whether "active noise cancelling" type technologies actually pose an auditory risk. They kind of have to emit the same amplitude-at-the-ear of audio of what they're cancelling out, right? And sure, most of the time the waves cancel, but maybe the algorithm gets it wrong a couple milliseconds at a time and - while possibly not perceptible - are those high peaks of audio-cancelling-sound damaging?
- vages 6y ago
  These "peaks" should all be within what you are able to hear, because there's no reason for having the headset produce cancelling waves with supersonic frequencies. If you want to worry about sudden sounds, there are probably more dangerous sources of them out there.
  - addcninblue 6y ago
    That's only the produced sound, right? If the produced sound is at a frequency that coincides with the original sound (as opposed to being half a wavelength off), wouldn't it amplify the sound and make it up to 2x? Apologies if I misunderstood your comment.
    - lukevp 6y ago
      I am not an audiologist... but I don’t think it would result in 2x the sound. I believe a sound originating from 2 sources with the same amplitude results in either phase cancellation or the same resulting amplitude, not 2x. This is similar to what happens with line arrays.
      - addcninblue 6y ago
        I don't think so? This is classic wave interference right? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wave_interference https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wave_interference
      - vages 6y ago
        You are thinking about the volume. As another replier said, two interfering frequencies produce an interference wave equal to their difference, so you can't have supersonic waves from something only capable of producing 20kHz sound
- spockz 6y ago
  This is anecdotal but I do feel a sense of pressure when using the Bose QC35. This pressure lasts for 30-60m when I’ve used them all day. I also have my ears popping after using them.
  - thomasqm 6y ago
    I noticed the same. Disabling or lowering noise cancellation in-app fixed everything.
  - Ekaros 6y ago
    I too feel it. Then again it might make sense that even if we don't hear it, the pressure is still there. As conservation of energy. After all active noise cancelling is destructive interference. Which has funny meaning that the energy is actually doubled. As we produce noise of equal power but opposite phase. Now does the energy end up in your ear or the headphone or outside? Or is it divided between these.
    - Baeocystin 6y ago
      The energy is dissipated as heat in the speaker coils. Energy is removed from the air. Think of it as using brakes to slow down a car. Yes, energy is consumed to do so (that's why the rotors get hot), but the car doesn't have 'hidden' energy, just because it was both accelerated, then decelerated. It really is at rest. The energy it embodied while in motion has been converted into other forms.
  - jiofih 6y ago
    This is one the most popular topics in the Sony vs Bose war. For reasons I haven’t seen any explanation for, Sony headphones have much less of that vacuum feeling.
    - Cu3PO42 6y ago
      Anecdotally I strongly agree. I notice no such feeling at all when using my WH1000-XM3, but it's very perceivable when wearing the QC35 or QC25. I have tinnitus, but I've had it for way longer than I've been using noise cancelling headphones or in-ear earbuds.
- Someone 6y ago
  Unless the active noise cancelling gets it spectacularly wrong, the high peaks won’t be higher than the peaks in the to-be-cancelled noise. So, you’d have to argue that short, sudden peaks are more damaging than continuous sounds. There is adaptation to sound volume (https://asa.scitation.org/doi/10.1121/1.1906477 https://asa.scitation.org/doi/10.1121/1.1906477), but I think you’d need more than that.
- maeln 6y ago
  The thing is, noise cancelling is a very simple physical process. If it "miss" you will ear it. So there is no invisible danger, it cannot be not perceptible, either it cancel, or it add to the noise. The worst that ANC can do is add noise to the noise. Plus, most ANC focus on low frequency sound since they are the easiest one to cancel.
  - ckemere 6y ago
    This assumes that active noise cancellation doesn't introduce energy in audible parts of the pressure spectrum.
    - stouset 6y ago
      This is no more a risk than normal audio you listen to doing the same.
      - sudosysgen 6y ago
        Of course not. If your driver is trying to cancel 95dB and creating a harmonic then that harmonic has 100 000 times more energy than the same harmonic when playing at 80dB without noise cancelation.
  - trhway 6y ago
    > If it "miss" you will ear it. So there is no invisible danger, it cannot be not perceptible not always true. Minor phase mismatch will create higher frequency sound. You wouldn't hear ultrasound, though how bad it is to have an ultrasound source in you ears i don't know. The phase mismatch can be temporal - circuitry reacting either a bit too fast or too slow - as well as spatial - the sound wave front most probably aren't parallel to the speakers frontal plane.
    - nyanpasu64 6y ago
      A noise-cancelling system can be designed to filter out and not produce high-frequency sound, to not worsen the problem. I'm not sure if properly designed noise cancelling can produce increased pressures felt by any parts of the eardrum or ear canal or outer ear.
- someonehere 6y ago
  Ten years ago I was interested in buying Bose noise cancelling headphones. Someone warned me that they had read somewhere on the internet that noise cancelling creates problems with your hearing. At the time I couldn’t find anything on Google about this, but I still bought the headphones anyway. Using the headphones the lingering thought of that statement bothered me. Using the headphones something didn’t feel right. Flash forward to now, people are talking about this so I can’t find relevant info on this without the well (Google) being poisoned by armchair doctors. I still feel noise cancelling is not healthy for ears.
  - jiofih 6y ago
    I feel like WiFi is damaging my brain /s
    - jensvdh 6y ago
      My Sony MXH100 headphones gave me tinnitus..
- jiofih 6y ago
  There is a running conspiracy theory that manufacturers found out about possible damage around 2018, and coincidentally all the popular models like the Sony WH1000 got firmware upgrades that perceivably downgraded the quality of ANC. I have a model from 2016 and can easily tell the difference from a newer one, now if that is the real reason or not... we’ll find out in the coming decade.
  - fauria 6y ago
    This theory was brought up during a previous thread on HN by @novok, in response to https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22080228 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22080228 I wonder... would this be theoretically possible? If so, are there any peer-reviewed papers published?
  - jensvdh 6y ago
    I got tinnitus after using Sony WH1000 noise cancelling headphones in 2018. Damn...
  - castratikron 6y ago
    I have a pair of those. I really like them except that they don't quite fit my ears and wearing them for more than a couple hours causes some soreness. If it weren't for that I'd probably wear them all the time. So, maybe that ended up saving me in the end.
- ryanmarsh 6y ago
  Yes they cause a number of problems. I experience nasty sinus headaches after prolonged use in loud environments (where the speaker driver is having to match the high amplitude of external noise).
- Maxburn 6y ago
  Mistakes in the cancelling might make peaks outside of human audible ranges that cause problems? I'm speculating here but wondering if anyone is looking into this.
- fortran77 6y ago
  I find active cancelling headphones to be very unpleasant. I've switched to custom molded in-ear monitors which do an even better job of eliminating external sound (musicians wear them on-stage to protect their hearing), sound better, and don't bother me the way active cancelling earphones do. I have no idea if active headphones are "bad", just that they make me feel very uneasy. The downside is that Custom In Ear Monitors are pricy (> $1000). When you have them made, you can often choose how many db of ambient sound attenuation you want.
briefcomment 6y ago
EMFs and other waves so close to sensitive biological parts seems unwise. I haven't switched out my iPhone 6 because I trust the headphone jack.
- Avery3R 6y ago
  Wired headphones use an electromagnet to move the speaker too, they create EMFs just as powerful...
  - briefcomment 6y ago
    https://besynchro.com/blogs/blog/why-i-stopped-using-apple-s-airpods-testing-emf-s-in-bluetooth-headphones https://besynchro.com/blogs/blog/why-i-stopped-using-apple-s... https://emfacademy.com/airpods-radiation-safe/ https://emfacademy.com/airpods-radiation-safe/
gabagool 6y ago
Is this actually the AirPods? Many people get tinnitus. Many people have AirPods. Could this be correlation not causation? Does anyone more knowledgeable know the details of how AirPods (or similar) could cause tinnitus?
- faitswulff 6y ago
  That’s what I was wondering. ANC might just make tinnitus more obvious.
  - steve_adams_86 6y ago
    This was what I wondered too. When I’m using good ANC, I can hear my body really well. It’s like when you go under water and suddenly hear those sounds instead of terrestrial sounds - ANC is like going in my body rather than under water, though.
  - eznzt 6y ago
    Yep. I have tinnitus and when I enable ANC all I hear is tinnitus... as expected
  - ColFrancis 6y ago
    For me at least (Bose QC35) I hear the ringing after I take them off, not while they're on. They're good, but not that good. My ears ring the most at night.
rhexs 6y ago
I’ve had tinnitus my entire life and think my case is genetic. There was a brief period in my life where I started reading about it and got pretty stressed I could hear it while trying to sleep. That compounded in on itself and it had me worried for a while. Eventually started meditating, stopped really caring, and never think about it anymore. Every now and then I’ll hear it, but I can focus on my breathing and just get back to life. If I focus, sure, it’s always there, but why bother? From what I understand some people can get very loud cases. I’m not sure how I’d deal with that. Daily user of airpods for years, and no changes to my tinnitus.
- salex89 6y ago
  Same here. I think I have it as long as I can remember. At a few points in my life it was slightly "noisier" but I think it was some kind of ear infection (once confirmed) or debris. In a very quiet room I would hear it, and if I investigate online I only get very anxious. It might be related to sinus issues I also have. But what helped me with those other issues (like itchy ears) is to listen to my doctor (no pun intended) to "forget" I have ears. Only wash the outer most part of the ear and leave it to do it's part. Wax, although unappealing, is nothing bad and is actually protective. I cleanse it with a hydrogen and olive oil spray mixture from the pharmacy every few months.
vages 6y ago
What is the hypothesis here? Do these earplugs have some hidden power compared to other Bluetooth headsets that gives people tinnitus?
- ckemere 6y ago
  Active noise cancellation?
  - pfranz 6y ago
    The thread doesn't mention "Pro" (I think they had only been out a month when the thread was created). A lot of the discussion here seems to be around the Pro and Max's ANC. So I imagine it's a similar, but different concern. Personally, when I upgraded from AirPods to the Pros my average volume I used dropped drastically. I got this info from Apple Health which tracks and warns of consistent high volumes.
- monopoledance 6y ago
  Other earplugs could have the same issue, but cases are distributed over a wider range of distinct support cases. Maybe this isn't down to something obvious with the audible sounds, but interference, or amplification of some other thing the Airpods radiate. See old mattresses picking up radio signals. Maybe it's a hit-piece on the Apple stock. Maybe this is just numbers and chance. I wouldn't straight dismiss it, since it's not exactly unbelievable and Apple has a history of delivering innovation without paying due diligence to/testing the not UI details.
PragmaticPulp 6y ago
There aren't actually 600+ reports in here, as the headline (currently) suggests. It appears over 600 people have pressed the "I have this question, too" button, but the number of people posting reports is much smaller. Keep in mind that Apple sells a massive number of AirPods. On the order of 100,000,000 units per year. The prevalence of tinnitus is estimated to be in the range of 10% of the population. It's also possible to impact earwax against the eardrum when inserting anything into your ear, Airpods or otherwise. Earwax compacted against the ear can worsen or modulate tinnitus. That would be my most likely explanation for any sudden-onset tinnitus following earbud use. Source: https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/tinnitus/symptoms-causes/syc-20350156#:~:text=Your%20ear%20canals%20can%20become,in%20your%20ear%2C%20causing%20tinnitus https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/tinnitus/symp....
- 3327 6y ago
  Keep in mind 600 is a high number, the barrier to discovery, association, research, reporting is pretty high.
  - PragmaticPulp 6y ago
    The massive volume of Airpods sold multiplied by the high number of hours used by each customer should surface these issues quickly due to scale alone. 600 out of 200,000,000-300,000,000 units sold is a reported incidence of around 0.0002%. It's possible that earbud usage has some negative effects in certain people due to earwax impaction or changing pressure in the inner ear, but Apple may be getting the blame because they're the only vendor operating with such large market share.
    - monopoledance 6y ago
      Tho, you don't compare it to the absolute number of units sold, but to the typical engagement in the support forum. How many people would even make the connection between Airpods and tinnitus? Same with the dead M1 macbooks and USB-C hubs. I agree the "600" isn't exactly science, but your argument isn't either.
- 6y ago
airpppp2 6y ago
Most of the posts there appear to be about AirPods Pro -- which have ANC. FWIW, I have only ever used the regular AirPods (1st and 2nd gen) for hours on end every day for years and have no issues with them or tinnitus.
RcouF1uZ4gsC 6y ago
Studies have shown that the prevalence of tinnitus in a population likely ranges from 5%-30%[0]. Looking at sales figures for AirPods, 50 million users would be a very conservative estimate. Given those numbers 600+ reports is not very convincing. 0. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5812683/#S8title https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5812683/#S8titl...
mattlondon 6y ago
Anecdotal but I have experienced similar with QC35s. Wear them for a bit for meetings etc (not loud) and tinnitus is noticeable when in bed that evening. Don't use them for a few days and tinnitus is not noticeable. It certainly feels like there is a definite correlation. I assume the ANC is still pumping in a lot of frequencies that do not get 100% cancelled-out, but are outside of my hearing range so I do not notice them in the "silence" but which is hammering my physical ear bits with audio energy.
- finger 6y ago
  I use QC35 II and have noticed the same issue. I use mine at very low volumes (max 10%), sometimes even without any audio but my tinnitus is much more noticeable after using noise cancellation. The difference is large enough that I have decided to minimize my use of the ANC. For me the ANC is audible when used without audio, but I imagine the ears get stimulated whether you can perceive it or not.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- enaaem 6y ago
  There also seems to be a correlation between Tinnitus and neck tension. Wearing headphones definitely adds some extra load to your neck. Perhaps you could determine the cause by wearing the headphone and not turning it on.
- ObsoleteNerd 6y ago
  Same for me. I’ve had tinnitus most my life and my QC35s make it noticeably worse. I’ve pretty much had to stop using them which I hate because I really really enjoyed the noise cancelling aspects, but it got to the point where within a few minutes of putting them on the tinnitus would drown everything else out last for hours after removing them. Since stopping using them the tinnitus has gotten significantly better (still there, it never goes away, but not as extreme).
- orev 6y ago
  It’s probably a good idea to disable ANC when you don’t really need it, and being in a meeting seems like one of those times. The iOS app lets you set the extra button to control the ANC level to make it easy to adjust. I’d only use ANC at times when it’s really needed, like on a plane.
ctdonath 6y ago
Blasting audio in a noisy environment for hours can cause tinnitus, AirPods included and not exclusive. Trust me. Another case of “OMG Apple!” click bait.
- anonuser123456 6y ago
  This is my thought too. I have another brand of ear buds, and even at the lowest level setting it’s a little loud for me. But the average Joe just jams them in their ear and sets the volume to down out a lawnmower. And then is surprised when they get hearing damage?
  - monopoledance 6y ago
    Do you assume the average Joe is that much dumber than you?
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - RealStickman_ 6y ago
      I would say there are at least a significant amount of people where you can hear what music they're listening to while sitting ~2m away from them in the train. Granted, the apparently nonexistent noise isolation of hardshell earbuds makes it pretty easy for sound to escape.
Havoc 6y ago
Decidedly speculative, but when Apple released that firmware update which caused people complained it had weakened the ANC effect there was talk of it being a response to this. ...then again was just a theory based on precisely zero hard facts.
jlnthws 6y ago
Not specific to AirPods: I’ve had the same issue before with Bose Quiet Comfort 25. After using noise cancelling a few hours for a few days I was having this high pitch issue for a day or two. So not a permanent tinnitus (for me), still doesn’t sound good.
- sneak 6y ago
  Another theoretical explanation: your tinnitus is always there, but you're not normally in extremely quiet places, and the quiet from the ANC lets you notice it better.
  - jlnthws 6y ago
    No, I was definitely not hearing high pitch when noise cancelling was on. I was hearing it when I removed the headset after using it of a few hours. It usually disappeared the next day. One time though i could still hear the high pitch for several days, that’s when I decided to stop using the QC25 and the high pitch eventually faded away and never came back, until AirPods.
- finger 6y ago
  I had a similar experience long before I got a real tinnitus. I had been playing computer games countless of hours per day, not with any loud volumes at all and I started getting insane tinnitus when going to sleep. One day I stuck my head real close to the monitor and noticed a high pitch coil whine-like sound. Either the frequency range changed over time or it was always audible but I didn’t notice it in the beginning. It turned out the monitor had been blasting high pitch whine all this time and being exposed to this barely audible loud sound caused me to have this crazy temporary tinnitus. A few days after getting replacing the monitor the issue was completely gone and I never had it again.
SirensOfTitan 6y ago
I've had tinnitus since I was a teenager. It's never bothered me, and I assumed everyone had it. I don't usually notice it while focusing on anything else, and even sometimes use it as a meditation object (paying attention to the oscillations of the sound). I sometimes wonder how many people have it, but don't notice the existence of it until later into adulthood (because they're not putting much attention on it).
- dorchadas 6y ago
  Interesting, I've never thought of using it as a meditation object. I might have to try that, as my tinnitus works the same as yours (I only notice it when it's super silent and I'm not working on something else)
- floatingatoll 6y ago
  I’m in your boat, where I take it for granted and use it to measure how tired my mind is (even if I’m not sleepy). Apparently not everyone has this positive of an adaptation to it.
jancsika 6y ago
I want to be part of a forum where these are the pre-requisites: * wear a mask and social distance with anyone outside your bubble during a pandemic * don't put shit in your ears unless advised by a doctor to do so * if the sounds at a concert are so loud as to be uncomfortable to you, leave
qbasic_forever 6y ago
Tinnitus is one of many symptoms many long haul COVID-19 sufferers complain about. Just as an anecdote Dr. Drew Pinsky was ill with COVID-19 around Christmas and complained about severe tinnitus as a result of his infection. So I'd be a little careful trying to draw sweeping conclusions about tinnitus right now without trying to account for and control the pandemic over the last year.
- 0x008 6y ago
  Tinnitus is a symptom of almost everything.
mmaunder 6y ago
This really is a thing. I mentioned it here 3 months ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24805366 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24805366 It’s the AirPods Pro specifically. I have not experienced this with the regular AirPods or the Max. Never had tinnitus, got it immediately when using Pro and went away immediately when I stopped using them.
- philshem 6y ago
  Some other comments in this thread better describe it, but a ringing in your ears that goes away is not tinnitus.
  - jl2718 6y ago
    That’s ridiculous. It’s the same thing. It’s just temporary until it’s not. I was nearly deaf from ringing for a week after my first Metallica concert. Then it went away, and now after more abuse it’s permanent, but it gets worse over days of using ANC, and better over months of not using anything.
tommaho 6y ago
20+ year tinnitus sufferer here, and recent owner of AirPods Pro. I can deal with the condition well enough, mostly by distraction, but just last week stumbled upon a supposed audio treatment on Spotify. I gave it a listen and sure enough it seemed to diminish the tinnitus while playing. For the three or so days afterward, though, I experienced the worst and most piercing spell of ringing I can recall. Never again. Im now curious about research in therapeutic use of headphones and related manipulative technologies. They’re clearly capable of doing something. Any connection here would be interesting.
- monopoledance 6y ago
  Have you tried this "finger tapping trick"? IIRC you press your ears shut with one or two fingers on each hand, and then tap with another finger on top of the pressing one. This should make an almost uncomfortable, punching, loud noise. Or maybe shut your ears with the heel of your hand and then use your fingers to tap on the back of your head. Forgotten how long you supposed to do it. Maybe a minute? The idea is to safely "overload" the hearing apparatus, pushing it into "self-protection mode", but allowing it to relax in the off-beat phase. For many people this seems to enable them to easily achieve a temporary period of peace from symptoms. Loud white noise seems to do something similar. I assume this breaks the perceptual feedback and offers the brain a chance to expect something else, before it rediscovers the chronic noise again.
  - akvadrako 6y ago
    This certainly works for me and lots of people, but the fix only lasts a few minutes.
    - monopoledance 6y ago
      I think it's valuable, because it may prevent people going all-in van Gogh style. Sometimes it's enough to know there is another experience to your case possible, even if it's only ever a moment of different.
  - tommaho 6y ago
deleted 6y ago
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piskov 6y ago
I’ve always searched for studies about impact of the ultra high frequencies (GHz i.e. billions as in bluetooth) on the brain and, more importantly, on the thyroid gland. I’m not talking about ionizing radiation, cancer, etc. (sure, there’s plenty of studies on that; we know, there isn’t), but on how those high-frequencies in close proximity may affect metabolism or other normal functioning — no such thing existed during our evolution. The reason I mention thyroid gland is that its disfunction may have very bad consequences (wiki it). Cognitive, psychological, etc. Really would like to see studies about possible impact on that. Until then, just to be safe, I try not use any bluetooth headphones or use them wired (most have that option).
- the_only_law 6y ago
  do you not use phones or any device utilizing WiFi near you either?
  - piskov 6y ago
    Not placed against my head. I try to use speakerphone or headset when I talk. There’s a reason standards have different values for head vs other parts: https://www.apple.com/legal/rfexposure/iphone13,3/en/ https://www.apple.com/legal/rfexposure/iphone13,3/en/ Also read the manual. For iphone 4 apple stated at least 15mm separation between the iphone and the head (5mm? nowdays). How many people just push it against the ear instead?
    - the_only_law 6y ago
      Fair enough, admittedly I’m not educated enough around RF to be able to tell how exactly frequency / distance / power can effect the human body. > I’ve always searched for studies about impact of the ultra high frequencies (GHz i.e. billions as in bluetooth) on the brain and, more importantly, on the thyroid gland. If you do have any, would you mind linking any of these studies. Not trying to start a fight or nitpick them, I’m genuinely curious.
      - 6y ago
brody_hamer 6y ago
PSA: Don’t listen to music in only one ear. It registers in your brain as quieter than it is, and it’s an easy way to cause hearing loss.
- naebother 6y ago
  This makes so much sense in hindsight. Like I'm conscious of the decision to bump up the volume, but never even thought about the possible damage. Thanks!
- random5634 6y ago
  Whoa - I do zoom calls with one headphone (not loud) and noticed ringing at night!
- lawkwok 6y ago
  I like the AirPod Pro’s for this when I’m on the streets. I can listen to music with one ear on relatively low volume with noise cancellation. When I use the same volume and disable noise cancellation, I have to turn up the volume around 20%.
Ancapistani 6y ago
I wonder if this could be related to the high-pitched whine that AirPods Pro are somewhat known for after a while?
nikolay 6y ago
They do! Just like all earbuds. Probably I'm the only modern human who's never stuck these things in my ear canals. I'm sure the damage goes beyond tinnitus.
ryanmarsh 6y ago
The best noise cancelling ear muffs you can find are for shooters, such as Motorola ComTac. The muffs passively block all noise and instead use a speaker/mic to mirror outside sounds (or audio devices) at an acceptable volume.
- Ekaros 6y ago
  They don't cancel sound they attenuate it. For best effect using both muffs and plugs is possible. That would be the preferable solution for ear protection in noisy environment.
sjg007 6y ago
One thing people who have tinnitus should do is get their blood pressure checked. https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/tinnitus/symptoms-causes/syc-20350156 https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/tinnitus/symp...
jamesu 6y ago
I'm not surprised given mine seem to play notification sounds at FULL BLAST.
therealasdf 6y ago
I use noise cancelling headphones and I think tinnitus becomes noticeable because of the noise cancellation rather than it being caused by it. Usually my environment has noises that make it harder to notice that I have tinnitus.
carlosrg 6y ago
All earplugs or headphones, whatever they are in-ear or not, can give tinnitus. You're blasting loud sounds directly to your ear. I don't understand why this is on the front page.
matt_oriordan 6y ago
Amusingly as I read this my tinnitus is hugely amplified and unescapedly present. I have also feared this onset last year may have been caused by my AirPods. Sadly I am unwilling to draw that conclusion based on hundreds of people reporting this issue. If 1,000 people reported getting heartburn after buying AirPods, we’d laugh at the stupidity of this ridiculous correlation. I want my tinnitus to go and I want to blame Apple. I won’t thought ugh unless a clinical study is carried out.
cageface 6y ago
I had a very severe allergic reaction to Powerbeats Pro and many people have reported the same problem with Powerbeats Pro and AirPods Pro. It seems most likely to have something to do with a coating on the silicone tips. Apple is stalling with people that report it. https://discussions.apple.com/thread/250896003 https://discussions.apple.com/thread/250896003
radicaldreamer 6y ago
I recently discovered I have tinnitus... have been using Airpods a lot more frequently since last year when working from home. I have the kind where you have a buzzing sound when things are really quiet and I only really noticed it after going to a quiet city (versus SF). I think this needs to be researched because it doesn't seem that tinnitus is reversible and if ANC headphones are contributing to it, then we're in for a whole lot of hurt after this pandemic...
ddragon 6y ago
I do wonder if one of the factors is simply the matter of the modern earbuds and headphones becoming so convenient that you never really need to take them out. I used to listen to songs with a wired conventional headphone for when I wanted to isolate myself from distractions for high attention work, but range limitations like the cable connected to the PC didn't allow me to move freely, no transparency mode so I had to take them out to talk with anyone, no multipoint bluetooth so I had to take them out to answer my phone and not having cables and being light in general just means I even forget I have them on. Now with a sony 1000xm4 basically all those opportunities to have my ears rest became unnecessary. Add to that the fact that the ANC just opens up the possibility of listening to less fatiguing and attention drawing songs, so while I may listen to lower volumes I might also listen for longer periods and with less interruptions. Not to forget services like spotify with the possibility of listening to an eternally long playlist without any thought (while with a CD or mp3 playlist it would eventually reach an end from which I'd have to stop and think if I want to continue listening).
mann_ 6y ago
This is a very real. I used AirPod Pros for months without any issues until December when the ANC entered a feedback loop, resulting in an extremely loud high-pitched noise for a few seconds until I took the earbuds out. I would estimate 1500Hz at about 115dB. My sense of balance was severely disrupted and a loud ringing in my ears started immediately. I later learned from an audiologist the feedback loop from the AirPods Pros caused a "vestibular event". I dealt with the constant tinnitus for the following four weeks. Thankfully, it resolved itself with time. I suspect the feedback loop was in part due to poor fitting of the AirPods in my ears. Regardless, I did nothing to trigger it aside from using the earbuds. Apple ought to take these claims serious.
illustriousbear 6y ago
Apple has sold about 90 million of these things. At 600 it is far more likely people have just noticed they have tinnitus or have had damage from some other exposure. For instance I have tinnitus and it also flares up due to my jaw clenching issues. I suspected my AirPods at one point as I'm a heavy user of ANC devices and struggle with city noise (I wear them a lot even at home). My specialist basically said it wasn't the issue and to see a physio-therapist and sort your jaw. My hearing tests also came back perfectly fine.
ashtonkem 6y ago
Always a good time to mention that hearing damage is cumulative and irreversible. If it hurts, you need to put earplugs in. Consistent noise can damage your hearing at lower levels than a single loud noise, which means you still might need hearing protection to do things like use saws or run air compressors. And while we can’t yet reverse hearing damage, that’s no excuse to not protect your ears if you’ve already done damage. We can’t fix if, but you can still make it worse with repeated exposure.
mrtweetyhack 6y ago
I'm getting airpods just so I can join the lawsuit
jzer0cool 6y ago
Tinnitus sounds different to other people? Or I wonder if it is a similar sound but difficult to describe in a unison way. Given the source of what causes the tinnitus, is it expected people hear high pitched sound?
pkaye 6y ago
Those suffering from tinnitus, a couple of things I discovered. One is some medicines may aggravate tinnitus. For me it was my BP medicine. When I switched to different one, my tinnitus was greatly reduced. However I still have some tinnitus due to hearing loss. So when I got hearing aids, after a month of adapting, I noticed the hearing aids suppress the tinnitus even further.
jl2718 6y ago
Let’s think about what is going on. Let’s say there is a monotone frequency at constant noise power in a plane wave. Now ANC is a point source of the same frequency. It’s only phase matched on one axis of propagation. Then there is a phase shift in the outside tone and a feedback loop to match the amplifier to the incoming tone. Electronics are fast, but the coil inductance is large, both at the mic and the speaker, so you will get some point of inversion in the match, which looks like a delta function in the interference pattern. A really great-sounding ANC will correct very quickly, which means a very high-frequency discrepancy. Maybe that makes it worse. Maybe high-frequencies that we can’t hear are the problem. Consider also that audio engineering treats the world as a mixture of pressure oscillations. If you look at the world as a sum of pressure delta functions, you would never attempt ANC. It’s easy to phase lock and destructively interfere with a frequency. It’s impossible to do the same with a delta function. The real world maybe a mixture of both, but not easily separable, and to some extent I think the brain is already pretty good at ignoring constant frequencies, while the delta functions drive us mad. Think about a bird versus a hammer, a cello versus a ratchet. My favorite setup is earplugs with over-ear headphones. I think audio circuitry gets things wrong and overdrives the high frequencies sometimes, so the ear plugs help filter it out. The worst for me was the bone conduction headphones - serious problems from those. And one more thing, if you always listen to music, try listening to nature for a bit, either in the real world, or through some very high-quality speakers. I don’t think the Pros are quite good enough for this.

233 points by albertTJames 6y ago

I've always wanted to ask an audiologist whether "active noise cancelling" type technologies actually pose an auditory risk. They kind of have to emit the same amplitude-at-the-ear of audio of what they're cancelling out, right? And sure, most of the time the waves cancel, but maybe the algorithm gets it wrong a couple milliseconds at a time and - while possibly not perceptible - are those high peaks of audio-cancelling-sound damaging?

vages 6y ago
These "peaks" should all be within what you are able to hear, because there's no reason for having the headset produce cancelling waves with supersonic frequencies. If you want to worry about sudden sounds, there are probably more dangerous sources of them out there.
- addcninblue 6y ago
  That's only the produced sound, right? If the produced sound is at a frequency that coincides with the original sound (as opposed to being half a wavelength off), wouldn't it amplify the sound and make it up to 2x? Apologies if I misunderstood your comment.
  - lukevp 6y ago
    I am not an audiologist... but I don’t think it would result in 2x the sound. I believe a sound originating from 2 sources with the same amplitude results in either phase cancellation or the same resulting amplitude, not 2x. This is similar to what happens with line arrays.
    - addcninblue 6y ago
      I don't think so? This is classic wave interference right? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wave_interference https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wave_interference
    - vages 6y ago
      You are thinking about the volume. As another replier said, two interfering frequencies produce an interference wave equal to their difference, so you can't have supersonic waves from something only capable of producing 20kHz sound
spockz 6y ago
This is anecdotal but I do feel a sense of pressure when using the Bose QC35. This pressure lasts for 30-60m when I’ve used them all day. I also have my ears popping after using them.
- thomasqm 6y ago
  I noticed the same. Disabling or lowering noise cancellation in-app fixed everything.
- Ekaros 6y ago
  I too feel it. Then again it might make sense that even if we don't hear it, the pressure is still there. As conservation of energy. After all active noise cancelling is destructive interference. Which has funny meaning that the energy is actually doubled. As we produce noise of equal power but opposite phase. Now does the energy end up in your ear or the headphone or outside? Or is it divided between these.
  - Baeocystin 6y ago
    The energy is dissipated as heat in the speaker coils. Energy is removed from the air. Think of it as using brakes to slow down a car. Yes, energy is consumed to do so (that's why the rotors get hot), but the car doesn't have 'hidden' energy, just because it was both accelerated, then decelerated. It really is at rest. The energy it embodied while in motion has been converted into other forms.
- jiofih 6y ago
  This is one the most popular topics in the Sony vs Bose war. For reasons I haven’t seen any explanation for, Sony headphones have much less of that vacuum feeling.
  - Cu3PO42 6y ago
    Anecdotally I strongly agree. I notice no such feeling at all when using my WH1000-XM3, but it's very perceivable when wearing the QC35 or QC25. I have tinnitus, but I've had it for way longer than I've been using noise cancelling headphones or in-ear earbuds.
Someone 6y ago
Unless the active noise cancelling gets it spectacularly wrong, the high peaks won’t be higher than the peaks in the to-be-cancelled noise. So, you’d have to argue that short, sudden peaks are more damaging than continuous sounds. There is adaptation to sound volume (https://asa.scitation.org/doi/10.1121/1.1906477 https://asa.scitation.org/doi/10.1121/1.1906477), but I think you’d need more than that.
maeln 6y ago
The thing is, noise cancelling is a very simple physical process. If it "miss" you will ear it. So there is no invisible danger, it cannot be not perceptible, either it cancel, or it add to the noise. The worst that ANC can do is add noise to the noise. Plus, most ANC focus on low frequency sound since they are the easiest one to cancel.
- ckemere 6y ago
  This assumes that active noise cancellation doesn't introduce energy in audible parts of the pressure spectrum.
  - stouset 6y ago
    This is no more a risk than normal audio you listen to doing the same.
    - sudosysgen 6y ago
      Of course not. If your driver is trying to cancel 95dB and creating a harmonic then that harmonic has 100 000 times more energy than the same harmonic when playing at 80dB without noise cancelation.
- trhway 6y ago
  > If it "miss" you will ear it. So there is no invisible danger, it cannot be not perceptible not always true. Minor phase mismatch will create higher frequency sound. You wouldn't hear ultrasound, though how bad it is to have an ultrasound source in you ears i don't know. The phase mismatch can be temporal - circuitry reacting either a bit too fast or too slow - as well as spatial - the sound wave front most probably aren't parallel to the speakers frontal plane.
  - nyanpasu64 6y ago
    A noise-cancelling system can be designed to filter out and not produce high-frequency sound, to not worsen the problem. I'm not sure if properly designed noise cancelling can produce increased pressures felt by any parts of the eardrum or ear canal or outer ear.
someonehere 6y ago
Ten years ago I was interested in buying Bose noise cancelling headphones. Someone warned me that they had read somewhere on the internet that noise cancelling creates problems with your hearing. At the time I couldn’t find anything on Google about this, but I still bought the headphones anyway. Using the headphones the lingering thought of that statement bothered me. Using the headphones something didn’t feel right. Flash forward to now, people are talking about this so I can’t find relevant info on this without the well (Google) being poisoned by armchair doctors. I still feel noise cancelling is not healthy for ears.
- jiofih 6y ago
  I feel like WiFi is damaging my brain /s
  - jensvdh 6y ago
    My Sony MXH100 headphones gave me tinnitus..
jiofih 6y ago
There is a running conspiracy theory that manufacturers found out about possible damage around 2018, and coincidentally all the popular models like the Sony WH1000 got firmware upgrades that perceivably downgraded the quality of ANC. I have a model from 2016 and can easily tell the difference from a newer one, now if that is the real reason or not... we’ll find out in the coming decade.
- fauria 6y ago
  This theory was brought up during a previous thread on HN by @novok, in response to https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22080228 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22080228 I wonder... would this be theoretically possible? If so, are there any peer-reviewed papers published?
- jensvdh 6y ago
  I got tinnitus after using Sony WH1000 noise cancelling headphones in 2018. Damn...
- castratikron 6y ago
  I have a pair of those. I really like them except that they don't quite fit my ears and wearing them for more than a couple hours causes some soreness. If it weren't for that I'd probably wear them all the time. So, maybe that ended up saving me in the end.
ryanmarsh 6y ago
Yes they cause a number of problems. I experience nasty sinus headaches after prolonged use in loud environments (where the speaker driver is having to match the high amplitude of external noise).
Maxburn 6y ago
Mistakes in the cancelling might make peaks outside of human audible ranges that cause problems? I'm speculating here but wondering if anyone is looking into this.
fortran77 6y ago
I find active cancelling headphones to be very unpleasant. I've switched to custom molded in-ear monitors which do an even better job of eliminating external sound (musicians wear them on-stage to protect their hearing), sound better, and don't bother me the way active cancelling earphones do. I have no idea if active headphones are "bad", just that they make me feel very uneasy. The downside is that Custom In Ear Monitors are pricy (> $1000). When you have them made, you can often choose how many db of ambient sound attenuation you want.

briefcomment 6y ago

EMFs and other waves so close to sensitive biological parts seems unwise. I haven't switched out my iPhone 6 because I trust the headphone jack.

Avery3R 6y ago
Wired headphones use an electromagnet to move the speaker too, they create EMFs just as powerful...
- briefcomment 6y ago
  https://besynchro.com/blogs/blog/why-i-stopped-using-apple-s-airpods-testing-emf-s-in-bluetooth-headphones https://besynchro.com/blogs/blog/why-i-stopped-using-apple-s... https://emfacademy.com/airpods-radiation-safe/ https://emfacademy.com/airpods-radiation-safe/

gabagool 6y ago

Is this actually the AirPods? Many people get tinnitus. Many people have AirPods. Could this be correlation not causation? Does anyone more knowledgeable know the details of how AirPods (or similar) could cause tinnitus?

faitswulff 6y ago
That’s what I was wondering. ANC might just make tinnitus more obvious.
- steve_adams_86 6y ago
  This was what I wondered too. When I’m using good ANC, I can hear my body really well. It’s like when you go under water and suddenly hear those sounds instead of terrestrial sounds - ANC is like going in my body rather than under water, though.
- eznzt 6y ago
  Yep. I have tinnitus and when I enable ANC all I hear is tinnitus... as expected
- ColFrancis 6y ago
  For me at least (Bose QC35) I hear the ringing after I take them off, not while they're on. They're good, but not that good. My ears ring the most at night.

rhexs 6y ago

I’ve had tinnitus my entire life and think my case is genetic. There was a brief period in my life where I started reading about it and got pretty stressed I could hear it while trying to sleep. That compounded in on itself and it had me worried for a while. Eventually started meditating, stopped really caring, and never think about it anymore. Every now and then I’ll hear it, but I can focus on my breathing and just get back to life. If I focus, sure, it’s always there, but why bother? From what I understand some people can get very loud cases. I’m not sure how I’d deal with that. Daily user of airpods for years, and no changes to my tinnitus.

salex89 6y ago
Same here. I think I have it as long as I can remember. At a few points in my life it was slightly "noisier" but I think it was some kind of ear infection (once confirmed) or debris. In a very quiet room I would hear it, and if I investigate online I only get very anxious. It might be related to sinus issues I also have. But what helped me with those other issues (like itchy ears) is to listen to my doctor (no pun intended) to "forget" I have ears. Only wash the outer most part of the ear and leave it to do it's part. Wax, although unappealing, is nothing bad and is actually protective. I cleanse it with a hydrogen and olive oil spray mixture from the pharmacy every few months.

vages 6y ago

What is the hypothesis here? Do these earplugs have some hidden power compared to other Bluetooth headsets that gives people tinnitus?

ckemere 6y ago
Active noise cancellation?
- pfranz 6y ago
  The thread doesn't mention "Pro" (I think they had only been out a month when the thread was created). A lot of the discussion here seems to be around the Pro and Max's ANC. So I imagine it's a similar, but different concern. Personally, when I upgraded from AirPods to the Pros my average volume I used dropped drastically. I got this info from Apple Health which tracks and warns of consistent high volumes.
monopoledance 6y ago
Other earplugs could have the same issue, but cases are distributed over a wider range of distinct support cases. Maybe this isn't down to something obvious with the audible sounds, but interference, or amplification of some other thing the Airpods radiate. See old mattresses picking up radio signals. Maybe it's a hit-piece on the Apple stock. Maybe this is just numbers and chance. I wouldn't straight dismiss it, since it's not exactly unbelievable and Apple has a history of delivering innovation without paying due diligence to/testing the not UI details.

PragmaticPulp 6y ago

There aren't actually 600+ reports in here, as the headline (currently) suggests. It appears over 600 people have pressed the "I have this question, too" button, but the number of people posting reports is much smaller. Keep in mind that Apple sells a massive number of AirPods. On the order of 100,000,000 units per year. The prevalence of tinnitus is estimated to be in the range of 10% of the population. It's also possible to impact earwax against the eardrum when inserting anything into your ear, Airpods or otherwise. Earwax compacted against the ear can worsen or modulate tinnitus. That would be my most likely explanation for any sudden-onset tinnitus following earbud use. Source: https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/tinnitus/symptoms-causes/syc-20350156#:~:text=Your%20ear%20canals%20can%20become,in%20your%20ear%2C%20causing%20tinnitus https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/tinnitus/symp....

3327 6y ago
Keep in mind 600 is a high number, the barrier to discovery, association, research, reporting is pretty high.
- PragmaticPulp 6y ago
  The massive volume of Airpods sold multiplied by the high number of hours used by each customer should surface these issues quickly due to scale alone. 600 out of 200,000,000-300,000,000 units sold is a reported incidence of around 0.0002%. It's possible that earbud usage has some negative effects in certain people due to earwax impaction or changing pressure in the inner ear, but Apple may be getting the blame because they're the only vendor operating with such large market share.
  - monopoledance 6y ago
    Tho, you don't compare it to the absolute number of units sold, but to the typical engagement in the support forum. How many people would even make the connection between Airpods and tinnitus? Same with the dead M1 macbooks and USB-C hubs. I agree the "600" isn't exactly science, but your argument isn't either.
6y ago

airpppp2 6y ago

Most of the posts there appear to be about AirPods Pro -- which have ANC. FWIW, I have only ever used the regular AirPods (1st and 2nd gen) for hours on end every day for years and have no issues with them or tinnitus.

RcouF1uZ4gsC 6y ago

Studies have shown that the prevalence of tinnitus in a population likely ranges from 5%-30%[0]. Looking at sales figures for AirPods, 50 million users would be a very conservative estimate. Given those numbers 600+ reports is not very convincing. 0. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5812683/#S8title https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5812683/#S8titl...

mattlondon 6y ago

Anecdotal but I have experienced similar with QC35s. Wear them for a bit for meetings etc (not loud) and tinnitus is noticeable when in bed that evening. Don't use them for a few days and tinnitus is not noticeable. It certainly feels like there is a definite correlation. I assume the ANC is still pumping in a lot of frequencies that do not get 100% cancelled-out, but are outside of my hearing range so I do not notice them in the "silence" but which is hammering my physical ear bits with audio energy.

finger 6y ago
I use QC35 II and have noticed the same issue. I use mine at very low volumes (max 10%), sometimes even without any audio but my tinnitus is much more noticeable after using noise cancellation. The difference is large enough that I have decided to minimize my use of the ANC. For me the ANC is audible when used without audio, but I imagine the ears get stimulated whether you can perceive it or not.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
enaaem 6y ago
There also seems to be a correlation between Tinnitus and neck tension. Wearing headphones definitely adds some extra load to your neck. Perhaps you could determine the cause by wearing the headphone and not turning it on.
ObsoleteNerd 6y ago
Same for me. I’ve had tinnitus most my life and my QC35s make it noticeably worse. I’ve pretty much had to stop using them which I hate because I really really enjoyed the noise cancelling aspects, but it got to the point where within a few minutes of putting them on the tinnitus would drown everything else out last for hours after removing them. Since stopping using them the tinnitus has gotten significantly better (still there, it never goes away, but not as extreme).
orev 6y ago
It’s probably a good idea to disable ANC when you don’t really need it, and being in a meeting seems like one of those times. The iOS app lets you set the extra button to control the ANC level to make it easy to adjust. I’d only use ANC at times when it’s really needed, like on a plane.

ctdonath 6y ago

Blasting audio in a noisy environment for hours can cause tinnitus, AirPods included and not exclusive. Trust me. Another case of “OMG Apple!” click bait.

anonuser123456 6y ago
This is my thought too. I have another brand of ear buds, and even at the lowest level setting it’s a little loud for me. But the average Joe just jams them in their ear and sets the volume to down out a lawnmower. And then is surprised when they get hearing damage?
- monopoledance 6y ago
  Do you assume the average Joe is that much dumber than you?
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - RealStickman_ 6y ago
    I would say there are at least a significant amount of people where you can hear what music they're listening to while sitting ~2m away from them in the train. Granted, the apparently nonexistent noise isolation of hardshell earbuds makes it pretty easy for sound to escape.

Havoc 6y ago

Decidedly speculative, but when Apple released that firmware update which caused people complained it had weakened the ANC effect there was talk of it being a response to this. ...then again was just a theory based on precisely zero hard facts.

jlnthws 6y ago

Not specific to AirPods: I’ve had the same issue before with Bose Quiet Comfort 25. After using noise cancelling a few hours for a few days I was having this high pitch issue for a day or two. So not a permanent tinnitus (for me), still doesn’t sound good.

sneak 6y ago
Another theoretical explanation: your tinnitus is always there, but you're not normally in extremely quiet places, and the quiet from the ANC lets you notice it better.
- jlnthws 6y ago
  No, I was definitely not hearing high pitch when noise cancelling was on. I was hearing it when I removed the headset after using it of a few hours. It usually disappeared the next day. One time though i could still hear the high pitch for several days, that’s when I decided to stop using the QC25 and the high pitch eventually faded away and never came back, until AirPods.
finger 6y ago
I had a similar experience long before I got a real tinnitus. I had been playing computer games countless of hours per day, not with any loud volumes at all and I started getting insane tinnitus when going to sleep. One day I stuck my head real close to the monitor and noticed a high pitch coil whine-like sound. Either the frequency range changed over time or it was always audible but I didn’t notice it in the beginning. It turned out the monitor had been blasting high pitch whine all this time and being exposed to this barely audible loud sound caused me to have this crazy temporary tinnitus. A few days after getting replacing the monitor the issue was completely gone and I never had it again.

SirensOfTitan 6y ago

I've had tinnitus since I was a teenager. It's never bothered me, and I assumed everyone had it. I don't usually notice it while focusing on anything else, and even sometimes use it as a meditation object (paying attention to the oscillations of the sound). I sometimes wonder how many people have it, but don't notice the existence of it until later into adulthood (because they're not putting much attention on it).

dorchadas 6y ago
Interesting, I've never thought of using it as a meditation object. I might have to try that, as my tinnitus works the same as yours (I only notice it when it's super silent and I'm not working on something else)
floatingatoll 6y ago
I’m in your boat, where I take it for granted and use it to measure how tired my mind is (even if I’m not sleepy). Apparently not everyone has this positive of an adaptation to it.

jancsika 6y ago

I want to be part of a forum where these are the pre-requisites: * wear a mask and social distance with anyone outside your bubble during a pandemic * don't put shit in your ears unless advised by a doctor to do so * if the sounds at a concert are so loud as to be uncomfortable to you, leave

qbasic_forever 6y ago

Tinnitus is one of many symptoms many long haul COVID-19 sufferers complain about. Just as an anecdote Dr. Drew Pinsky was ill with COVID-19 around Christmas and complained about severe tinnitus as a result of his infection. So I'd be a little careful trying to draw sweeping conclusions about tinnitus right now without trying to account for and control the pandemic over the last year.

0x008 6y ago
Tinnitus is a symptom of almost everything.

mmaunder 6y ago

This really is a thing. I mentioned it here 3 months ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24805366 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24805366 It’s the AirPods Pro specifically. I have not experienced this with the regular AirPods or the Max. Never had tinnitus, got it immediately when using Pro and went away immediately when I stopped using them.

philshem 6y ago
Some other comments in this thread better describe it, but a ringing in your ears that goes away is not tinnitus.
- jl2718 6y ago
  That’s ridiculous. It’s the same thing. It’s just temporary until it’s not. I was nearly deaf from ringing for a week after my first Metallica concert. Then it went away, and now after more abuse it’s permanent, but it gets worse over days of using ANC, and better over months of not using anything.

tommaho 6y ago

20+ year tinnitus sufferer here, and recent owner of AirPods Pro. I can deal with the condition well enough, mostly by distraction, but just last week stumbled upon a supposed audio treatment on Spotify. I gave it a listen and sure enough it seemed to diminish the tinnitus while playing. For the three or so days afterward, though, I experienced the worst and most piercing spell of ringing I can recall. Never again. Im now curious about research in therapeutic use of headphones and related manipulative technologies. They’re clearly capable of doing something. Any connection here would be interesting.

monopoledance 6y ago
Have you tried this "finger tapping trick"? IIRC you press your ears shut with one or two fingers on each hand, and then tap with another finger on top of the pressing one. This should make an almost uncomfortable, punching, loud noise. Or maybe shut your ears with the heel of your hand and then use your fingers to tap on the back of your head. Forgotten how long you supposed to do it. Maybe a minute? The idea is to safely "overload" the hearing apparatus, pushing it into "self-protection mode", but allowing it to relax in the off-beat phase. For many people this seems to enable them to easily achieve a temporary period of peace from symptoms. Loud white noise seems to do something similar. I assume this breaks the perceptual feedback and offers the brain a chance to expect something else, before it rediscovers the chronic noise again.
- akvadrako 6y ago
  This certainly works for me and lots of people, but the fix only lasts a few minutes.
  - monopoledance 6y ago
    I think it's valuable, because it may prevent people going all-in van Gogh style. Sometimes it's enough to know there is another experience to your case possible, even if it's only ever a moment of different.
- tommaho 6y ago

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

piskov 6y ago

I’ve always searched for studies about impact of the ultra high frequencies (GHz i.e. billions as in bluetooth) on the brain and, more importantly, on the thyroid gland. I’m not talking about ionizing radiation, cancer, etc. (sure, there’s plenty of studies on that; we know, there isn’t), but on how those high-frequencies in close proximity may affect metabolism or other normal functioning — no such thing existed during our evolution. The reason I mention thyroid gland is that its disfunction may have very bad consequences (wiki it). Cognitive, psychological, etc. Really would like to see studies about possible impact on that. Until then, just to be safe, I try not use any bluetooth headphones or use them wired (most have that option).

the_only_law 6y ago
do you not use phones or any device utilizing WiFi near you either?
- piskov 6y ago
  Not placed against my head. I try to use speakerphone or headset when I talk. There’s a reason standards have different values for head vs other parts: https://www.apple.com/legal/rfexposure/iphone13,3/en/ https://www.apple.com/legal/rfexposure/iphone13,3/en/ Also read the manual. For iphone 4 apple stated at least 15mm separation between the iphone and the head (5mm? nowdays). How many people just push it against the ear instead?
  - the_only_law 6y ago
    Fair enough, admittedly I’m not educated enough around RF to be able to tell how exactly frequency / distance / power can effect the human body. > I’ve always searched for studies about impact of the ultra high frequencies (GHz i.e. billions as in bluetooth) on the brain and, more importantly, on the thyroid gland. If you do have any, would you mind linking any of these studies. Not trying to start a fight or nitpick them, I’m genuinely curious.
    - 6y ago

brody_hamer 6y ago

PSA: Don’t listen to music in only one ear. It registers in your brain as quieter than it is, and it’s an easy way to cause hearing loss.

naebother 6y ago
This makes so much sense in hindsight. Like I'm conscious of the decision to bump up the volume, but never even thought about the possible damage. Thanks!
random5634 6y ago
Whoa - I do zoom calls with one headphone (not loud) and noticed ringing at night!
lawkwok 6y ago
I like the AirPod Pro’s for this when I’m on the streets. I can listen to music with one ear on relatively low volume with noise cancellation. When I use the same volume and disable noise cancellation, I have to turn up the volume around 20%.

Ancapistani 6y ago

I wonder if this could be related to the high-pitched whine that AirPods Pro are somewhat known for after a while?

nikolay 6y ago

They do! Just like all earbuds. Probably I'm the only modern human who's never stuck these things in my ear canals. I'm sure the damage goes beyond tinnitus.

ryanmarsh 6y ago

The best noise cancelling ear muffs you can find are for shooters, such as Motorola ComTac. The muffs passively block all noise and instead use a speaker/mic to mirror outside sounds (or audio devices) at an acceptable volume.

Ekaros 6y ago
They don't cancel sound they attenuate it. For best effect using both muffs and plugs is possible. That would be the preferable solution for ear protection in noisy environment.

sjg007 6y ago

One thing people who have tinnitus should do is get their blood pressure checked. https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/tinnitus/symptoms-causes/syc-20350156 https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/tinnitus/symp...

jamesu 6y ago

I'm not surprised given mine seem to play notification sounds at FULL BLAST.

therealasdf 6y ago

I use noise cancelling headphones and I think tinnitus becomes noticeable because of the noise cancellation rather than it being caused by it. Usually my environment has noises that make it harder to notice that I have tinnitus.

carlosrg 6y ago

All earplugs or headphones, whatever they are in-ear or not, can give tinnitus. You're blasting loud sounds directly to your ear. I don't understand why this is on the front page.

matt_oriordan 6y ago

Amusingly as I read this my tinnitus is hugely amplified and unescapedly present. I have also feared this onset last year may have been caused by my AirPods. Sadly I am unwilling to draw that conclusion based on hundreds of people reporting this issue. If 1,000 people reported getting heartburn after buying AirPods, we’d laugh at the stupidity of this ridiculous correlation. I want my tinnitus to go and I want to blame Apple. I won’t thought ugh unless a clinical study is carried out.

cageface 6y ago

I had a very severe allergic reaction to Powerbeats Pro and many people have reported the same problem with Powerbeats Pro and AirPods Pro. It seems most likely to have something to do with a coating on the silicone tips. Apple is stalling with people that report it. https://discussions.apple.com/thread/250896003 https://discussions.apple.com/thread/250896003

radicaldreamer 6y ago

I recently discovered I have tinnitus... have been using Airpods a lot more frequently since last year when working from home. I have the kind where you have a buzzing sound when things are really quiet and I only really noticed it after going to a quiet city (versus SF). I think this needs to be researched because it doesn't seem that tinnitus is reversible and if ANC headphones are contributing to it, then we're in for a whole lot of hurt after this pandemic...

ddragon 6y ago

I do wonder if one of the factors is simply the matter of the modern earbuds and headphones becoming so convenient that you never really need to take them out. I used to listen to songs with a wired conventional headphone for when I wanted to isolate myself from distractions for high attention work, but range limitations like the cable connected to the PC didn't allow me to move freely, no transparency mode so I had to take them out to talk with anyone, no multipoint bluetooth so I had to take them out to answer my phone and not having cables and being light in general just means I even forget I have them on. Now with a sony 1000xm4 basically all those opportunities to have my ears rest became unnecessary. Add to that the fact that the ANC just opens up the possibility of listening to less fatiguing and attention drawing songs, so while I may listen to lower volumes I might also listen for longer periods and with less interruptions. Not to forget services like spotify with the possibility of listening to an eternally long playlist without any thought (while with a CD or mp3 playlist it would eventually reach an end from which I'd have to stop and think if I want to continue listening).

mann_ 6y ago

This is a very real. I used AirPod Pros for months without any issues until December when the ANC entered a feedback loop, resulting in an extremely loud high-pitched noise for a few seconds until I took the earbuds out. I would estimate 1500Hz at about 115dB. My sense of balance was severely disrupted and a loud ringing in my ears started immediately. I later learned from an audiologist the feedback loop from the AirPods Pros caused a "vestibular event". I dealt with the constant tinnitus for the following four weeks. Thankfully, it resolved itself with time. I suspect the feedback loop was in part due to poor fitting of the AirPods in my ears. Regardless, I did nothing to trigger it aside from using the earbuds. Apple ought to take these claims serious.

illustriousbear 6y ago

Apple has sold about 90 million of these things. At 600 it is far more likely people have just noticed they have tinnitus or have had damage from some other exposure. For instance I have tinnitus and it also flares up due to my jaw clenching issues. I suspected my AirPods at one point as I'm a heavy user of ANC devices and struggle with city noise (I wear them a lot even at home). My specialist basically said it wasn't the issue and to see a physio-therapist and sort your jaw. My hearing tests also came back perfectly fine.

ashtonkem 6y ago

Always a good time to mention that hearing damage is cumulative and irreversible. If it hurts, you need to put earplugs in. Consistent noise can damage your hearing at lower levels than a single loud noise, which means you still might need hearing protection to do things like use saws or run air compressors. And while we can’t yet reverse hearing damage, that’s no excuse to not protect your ears if you’ve already done damage. We can’t fix if, but you can still make it worse with repeated exposure.

mrtweetyhack 6y ago

I'm getting airpods just so I can join the lawsuit

jzer0cool 6y ago

Tinnitus sounds different to other people? Or I wonder if it is a similar sound but difficult to describe in a unison way. Given the source of what causes the tinnitus, is it expected people hear high pitched sound?

pkaye 6y ago

Those suffering from tinnitus, a couple of things I discovered. One is some medicines may aggravate tinnitus. For me it was my BP medicine. When I switched to different one, my tinnitus was greatly reduced. However I still have some tinnitus due to hearing loss. So when I got hearing aids, after a month of adapting, I noticed the hearing aids suppress the tinnitus even further.

jl2718 6y ago

Let’s think about what is going on. Let’s say there is a monotone frequency at constant noise power in a plane wave. Now ANC is a point source of the same frequency. It’s only phase matched on one axis of propagation. Then there is a phase shift in the outside tone and a feedback loop to match the amplifier to the incoming tone. Electronics are fast, but the coil inductance is large, both at the mic and the speaker, so you will get some point of inversion in the match, which looks like a delta function in the interference pattern. A really great-sounding ANC will correct very quickly, which means a very high-frequency discrepancy. Maybe that makes it worse. Maybe high-frequencies that we can’t hear are the problem. Consider also that audio engineering treats the world as a mixture of pressure oscillations. If you look at the world as a sum of pressure delta functions, you would never attempt ANC. It’s easy to phase lock and destructively interfere with a frequency. It’s impossible to do the same with a delta function. The real world maybe a mixture of both, but not easily separable, and to some extent I think the brain is already pretty good at ignoring constant frequencies, while the delta functions drive us mad. Think about a bird versus a hammer, a cello versus a ratchet. My favorite setup is earplugs with over-ear headphones. I think audio circuitry gets things wrong and overdrives the high frequencies sometimes, so the ear plugs help filter it out. The worst for me was the bone conduction headphones - serious problems from those. And one more thing, if you always listen to music, try listening to nature for a bit, either in the real world, or through some very high-quality speakers. I don’t think the Pros are quite good enough for this.