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A lot of people here are accusing Google of embrace, extend, and extinguish, but you have to realize that the incentives here are different from Big Tech's poin

A lot of people here are accusing Google of embrace, extend, and extinguish, but you have to realize that the incentives here are different from Big Tech's point of view. I'd first like to point out Python is a programming language, not an internet standard or file format. It gets its utility merely from the ability to develop in it, even without an established ecosystem or network effect. The barrier to jump in, or fork off and start over is far lower compared to a browser or file format. So what's in it for Big Tech? Well, in a situation where controlling the technology or suppressing it is difficult due to the low costs of starting over, it is in their best interest to promote the ecosystem rather than control it. When they put in the time, money, and engineers to make it better the return on investment can be massive, because of the help they get from the community to grow, maintain, and keep compatible this core component at less cost than if they did it themselves. The incentives align and benefit everyone, especially if there is a fair governance system mediating between all parties involved. The biggest threat to an open source project is therefore not Big Tech collaboration, but project abandonment and lack of maintenance. I hope this makes everyone a little more optimistic about the direction of open source, especially as companies realize the real value it can have for all involved.

tal8d 6y ago
A company can damage an open source project in a number of creative ways that have nothing to do with file formats. One word: Oracle. OpenOffice vs LibreOffice is a pretty good example of plausibly deniable sabotage that would enjoy a bonus with the number of people interjecting, index finger raised, with "Actually, Hanlon's razor..." To be fair to Oracle, Sun didn't help that situation at all, Oracle just ratcheted it up.
- konjin 6y ago
  Sufficiently advanced malice is indistinguishable from incompetence.
  - higerordermap 6y ago
    This needs a wikipedia entry.
    - gjvc 6y ago
      This is "Grey's law", mentioned at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarke%27s_three_laws https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarke%27s_three_laws
      - konjin 6y ago
        It's reversed. You look like a harmless idiot while being a harmful mastermind.
        carapace 6y ago
        Malice is itself a form of incompetence.
  - tal8d 6y ago
    I prefer the more mean spirited "aggressively stupid", but I don't want to tempt a splintering of the "Hanlon's razor" people - I'm quite happy with the mental image I have of them already.
    - oneplane 6y ago
      You can always go deeper: 1. Not malice but incompetence 2. Actually malice, trying to make it look like incompetence, but being incompetent at that makes it... both? 3. Actually being competent at feigning incompetence (the ultimate malice?), perhaps we need to develop a new 'razor' for that.
  - kps 6y ago
    Simple Sabotage Field Manual (Office of Strategic Services, 1944) is full of suggestions along these lines, which appear to still be in wide use.
doof_warrior 6y ago
I am one of those people, so I will respond. > The barrier to jump in, or fork off and start over is far lower compared to a browser or file format. False. Its way easier to switch browsers than for a company to switch to an alternative Python implementation. Cpython is the defacto standard that the other implementations follow. What you are suggesting is that if Python 4 breaks your code base you are free to fork off Python 3 and keep the just the changes you like. This is absurd. > The biggest threat to an open source project is therefore not Big Tech collaboration, but project abandonment and lack of maintenance. Python is in no danger of abandonment. Anyhow. It appears you represent Google, so know this: We are watching carefully. Any attempt to subvert Python will be publicized and have a disproportionate response from the user community.
- vntok 6y ago
  > Anyhow. It appears you represent Google, so know this: We are watching carefully. Any attempt to subvert Python will be publicized and have a disproportionate response from the user community. Who is 'we' in your sentence? Please do not speak for the community at large. For many Python users, as well as for the Foundation, as well as for many companies building on Python stacks, Google's allocating part of its vast resources to the continued development of Python is considered a Good Thing(tm) that brings a net financial benefit in the short term as well as an increased peace of mind in the medium-to-long term.
  - seaman1921 6y ago
    their 'we' represents a bunch of big-mouthed folks who themselves never did anything for the Python or any other community but are quick to shit post any good that big-tech tries to do.
- nexthash 6y ago
  Haha, you mean that you are watching me. I do not represent Google. Don't worry, you don't have to fear any Google psych-ops trying to brainwash you into accepting its contributions to Python: Google is probably too big to care about such things. If caught any such behavior would probably cause a massive stink. And dude, there is literally only one free browser left: Firefox. All other browsers are derivatives of Chromium at this point or have barely any users, made even worse by the way Google executed EEE on web standards with DRM extensions. It takes enormous resources to write a battle-tested browser viable for the web. It is far easier for someone to write a script interpreter for their own uses. HN is written in Arc Lisp, for example.
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dvfjsdhgfv 6y ago
> The incentives align and benefit everyone I see your point and I'd tend to agree, except that we've all seen cases of successful projects suffering under the umbrella of a big company. If Google took care of Nim or D, I'd be more than happy. But Python? It's doing well, they better leave it alone.
- nexthash 6y ago
  Yeah, Python has been the wonder child of the programming world for as long as I can remember. People have very strong beliefs on the subject - I remember how everybody went up in arms over the walrus operator (a := b) issue. I hope that all parties involved appreciate Python's position and longevity, while approaching the task of maintaining it with respect. I personally do not expect Google or any other Big Tech to be running roughshod over such a treasure anytime soon.
  - dvfjsdhgfv 6y ago
    While personally I feel adding features might be cointerproductive, there are probably two features that would gain unanimous acceptance: (1) removing the GIL - involving an unimaginable amount of work, (2) increasing the speed of CPython itself.
- seaman1921 6y ago
  >they better leave it alone. Or you will do what pleb ? - how about you let Google choose where it wants to put its money. I use Python regularly and have never touched Nim or D so I personally support this.
doof_warrior 6y ago
Reposting this comment because it was flagged even though it had a high upvote count... Beware: Its events like this that cause organized resistance and then alternatives to Big Tech and even this board. -- I am one of those people, so I will respond. > The barrier to jump in, or fork off and start over is far lower compared to a browser or file format. False. Its way easier to switch browsers than for a company to switch to an alternative Python implementation. Cpython is the defacto standard that the other implementations follow. What you are suggesting is that if Python 4 breaks your code base you are free to fork off Python 3 and keep the just the changes you like. This is absurd. > The biggest threat to an open source project is therefore not Big Tech collaboration, but project abandonment and lack of maintenance. Python is in no danger of abandonment.
- sokoloff 6y ago
  How much code is still running on python 2.x today?
  - oneplane 6y ago
    Too much
    - wyclif 6y ago
      A lot of "data science" code in non-software companies.
      - oneplane 6y ago
        Also a lot of 'unmanaged' code that was put in place and doesn't have an owner. Combined with backwards backwards compatibility (looking at you, AWS Lambda Runtimes) some of the code might not be updated any time soon because there is no value in it. This would apply to container images as well I suppose.
  - throwaway19937 6y ago
    We have at least 3 currently supported vendor apps that use Python 2.7.
amelius 6y ago
Let's see if we get Python for Android development.
- BiteCode_dev 6y ago
  Currently you have 2 options: - https://beeware.org/ https://beeware.org/ - https://kivy.org/ https://kivy.org/ I doubt Google is going to sponsor any though.
- pjmlp 6y ago
  The support that Go and Dart have on Android development is done by their own team efforts, with zero support from Android team. In fact, Jetpack Composer and Kotlin cross platform are pretty much a counter attack on Flutter.
mark_l_watson 6y ago
While I am publicly critical of Google (and more so, Facebook), I also really appreciate their support for Python, TensorFlow, pre-trained deep learning models, etc. Even Facebook gets credit for releasing some very useful tools. Nothing is black and white in the world. Personally, I use products that I pay for from Google (GCP, YouTube Music, etc.) and Facebook (Oculus VR), but I stay away from “free” stuff paid for by data that is owned by me.

tal8d 6y ago

A company can damage an open source project in a number of creative ways that have nothing to do with file formats. One word: Oracle. OpenOffice vs LibreOffice is a pretty good example of plausibly deniable sabotage that would enjoy a bonus with the number of people interjecting, index finger raised, with "Actually, Hanlon's razor..." To be fair to Oracle, Sun didn't help that situation at all, Oracle just ratcheted it up.

konjin 6y ago
Sufficiently advanced malice is indistinguishable from incompetence.
- higerordermap 6y ago
  This needs a wikipedia entry.
  - gjvc 6y ago
    This is "Grey's law", mentioned at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarke%27s_three_laws https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarke%27s_three_laws
    - konjin 6y ago
      It's reversed. You look like a harmless idiot while being a harmful mastermind.
      - carapace 6y ago
        Malice is itself a form of incompetence.
- tal8d 6y ago
  I prefer the more mean spirited "aggressively stupid", but I don't want to tempt a splintering of the "Hanlon's razor" people - I'm quite happy with the mental image I have of them already.
  - oneplane 6y ago
    You can always go deeper: 1. Not malice but incompetence 2. Actually malice, trying to make it look like incompetence, but being incompetent at that makes it... both? 3. Actually being competent at feigning incompetence (the ultimate malice?), perhaps we need to develop a new 'razor' for that.
- kps 6y ago
  Simple Sabotage Field Manual (Office of Strategic Services, 1944) is full of suggestions along these lines, which appear to still be in wide use.

doof_warrior 6y ago

I am one of those people, so I will respond. > The barrier to jump in, or fork off and start over is far lower compared to a browser or file format. False. Its way easier to switch browsers than for a company to switch to an alternative Python implementation. Cpython is the defacto standard that the other implementations follow. What you are suggesting is that if Python 4 breaks your code base you are free to fork off Python 3 and keep the just the changes you like. This is absurd. > The biggest threat to an open source project is therefore not Big Tech collaboration, but project abandonment and lack of maintenance. Python is in no danger of abandonment. Anyhow. It appears you represent Google, so know this: We are watching carefully. Any attempt to subvert Python will be publicized and have a disproportionate response from the user community.

vntok 6y ago
> Anyhow. It appears you represent Google, so know this: We are watching carefully. Any attempt to subvert Python will be publicized and have a disproportionate response from the user community. Who is 'we' in your sentence? Please do not speak for the community at large. For many Python users, as well as for the Foundation, as well as for many companies building on Python stacks, Google's allocating part of its vast resources to the continued development of Python is considered a Good Thing(tm) that brings a net financial benefit in the short term as well as an increased peace of mind in the medium-to-long term.
- seaman1921 6y ago
  their 'we' represents a bunch of big-mouthed folks who themselves never did anything for the Python or any other community but are quick to shit post any good that big-tech tries to do.
nexthash 6y ago
Haha, you mean that you are watching me. I do not represent Google. Don't worry, you don't have to fear any Google psych-ops trying to brainwash you into accepting its contributions to Python: Google is probably too big to care about such things. If caught any such behavior would probably cause a massive stink. And dude, there is literally only one free browser left: Firefox. All other browsers are derivatives of Chromium at this point or have barely any users, made even worse by the way Google executed EEE on web standards with DRM extensions. It takes enormous resources to write a battle-tested browser viable for the web. It is far easier for someone to write a script interpreter for their own uses. HN is written in Arc Lisp, for example.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

dvfjsdhgfv 6y ago

> The incentives align and benefit everyone I see your point and I'd tend to agree, except that we've all seen cases of successful projects suffering under the umbrella of a big company. If Google took care of Nim or D, I'd be more than happy. But Python? It's doing well, they better leave it alone.

nexthash 6y ago
Yeah, Python has been the wonder child of the programming world for as long as I can remember. People have very strong beliefs on the subject - I remember how everybody went up in arms over the walrus operator (a := b) issue. I hope that all parties involved appreciate Python's position and longevity, while approaching the task of maintaining it with respect. I personally do not expect Google or any other Big Tech to be running roughshod over such a treasure anytime soon.
- dvfjsdhgfv 6y ago
  While personally I feel adding features might be cointerproductive, there are probably two features that would gain unanimous acceptance: (1) removing the GIL - involving an unimaginable amount of work, (2) increasing the speed of CPython itself.
seaman1921 6y ago
>they better leave it alone. Or you will do what pleb ? - how about you let Google choose where it wants to put its money. I use Python regularly and have never touched Nim or D so I personally support this.

doof_warrior 6y ago

Reposting this comment because it was flagged even though it had a high upvote count... Beware: Its events like this that cause organized resistance and then alternatives to Big Tech and even this board. -- I am one of those people, so I will respond. > The barrier to jump in, or fork off and start over is far lower compared to a browser or file format. False. Its way easier to switch browsers than for a company to switch to an alternative Python implementation. Cpython is the defacto standard that the other implementations follow. What you are suggesting is that if Python 4 breaks your code base you are free to fork off Python 3 and keep the just the changes you like. This is absurd. > The biggest threat to an open source project is therefore not Big Tech collaboration, but project abandonment and lack of maintenance. Python is in no danger of abandonment.

sokoloff 6y ago
How much code is still running on python 2.x today?
- oneplane 6y ago
  Too much
  - wyclif 6y ago
    A lot of "data science" code in non-software companies.
    - oneplane 6y ago
      Also a lot of 'unmanaged' code that was put in place and doesn't have an owner. Combined with backwards backwards compatibility (looking at you, AWS Lambda Runtimes) some of the code might not be updated any time soon because there is no value in it. This would apply to container images as well I suppose.
- throwaway19937 6y ago
  We have at least 3 currently supported vendor apps that use Python 2.7.

amelius 6y ago

Let's see if we get Python for Android development.

BiteCode_dev 6y ago
Currently you have 2 options: - https://beeware.org/ https://beeware.org/ - https://kivy.org/ https://kivy.org/ I doubt Google is going to sponsor any though.
pjmlp 6y ago
The support that Go and Dart have on Android development is done by their own team efforts, with zero support from Android team. In fact, Jetpack Composer and Kotlin cross platform are pretty much a counter attack on Flutter.

mark_l_watson 6y ago

While I am publicly critical of Google (and more so, Facebook), I also really appreciate their support for Python, TensorFlow, pre-trained deep learning models, etc. Even Facebook gets credit for releasing some very useful tools. Nothing is black and white in the world. Personally, I use products that I pay for from Google (GCP, YouTube Music, etc.) and Facebook (Oculus VR), but I stay away from “free” stuff paid for by data that is owned by me.