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The article itself isn't about this but one could theorize that the headline taken literally is also likely true.
by pb7 6y ago
The article itself isn't about this but one could theorize that the headline taken literally is also likely true.
- asmos7 6y agocame for hope - walked away disappointed.
- vocram 6y agoAnd that’s true even more if they are bald and with a beard.
- winter_blue 6y agoI knew a senior software engineer who was in his 60s, who was short, fat (pot bellied), completely bald (or shaven), and had a large white beard. He also used to ruffle the feathers of HR. Once, when a woman from the talent acquisition team tried to give him generic instructions about conducting interviews, he told her “Lady, I don’t need all this, I’ve been doing this since before you were born”. (She was born in the mid-80s.) She reported him to HR, and obviously they didn’t do anything, since he was one of the most valuable engineers at the company. He had a great breadth of knowledge and experience, and was really good at what he did. So what you’re stating doesn’t necessarily always hold true.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- netrus 6y agoSometimes when people refuse to learn something new because they think they know better they are right, and sometimes they are wrong. Sadly it is difficult to know in which of these group you are, so it might be a good hedge not to refuse to listen to the young people. Even the most knowledgeable engineer can become a net negative quite easily.
- edoceo 6y agoHubris right? Gets you twice, every time.
- wutbrodo 6y agoWhat?? Beards are discriminated against professionally?
- pantalaimon 6y agoDepends on the length of the beard.
- wutbrodo 6y agoAh yea, that makes sense.
- greggturkington 6y agoThe balding greybeards are among the most respected engineers of my peers
- hertzrat 6y agoBut not necessarily when they apply for their next jobs, unfortunately
- peter_l_downs 6y agowell, yeah, all engineers are under valued
- kristopolous 6y agoSome clicking on google scholar shows academic literature supports the claim at least with regard to height. Maybe someone can find similar articles with weight (I couldn't find anything) https://psycnet.apa.org/buy/2004-95165-004 https://psycnet.apa.org/buy/2004-95165-004 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF00288309 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF00288309
- the_only_law 6y agoNgl for a minute before clicking I was slightly curious if this was some random study of the literal interpretation.
- pb7 6y agoI believe there is ample research showing height and attractiveness (one could reasonably consider weight to be one determining factor in attractiveness) do play a factor in career success, compensation, and selection for leadership.
- christophilus 6y agoInvader Zim was prescient, it turns out.
- renerthr 6y agoI think it goes more the other way around. Successful people prefer to look attractive, so they take the necessary steps to achieve that. Elon M would be an example, I guess. [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7378972 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7378972
- jodrellblank 6y agoone could devil's advocate speculate the other way as well; e.g. If IQ declines with age, and exercise is a way to slow the decline[1], fatness could reflect lack of exercise and lifestyle which doesn't prioritise exercise, so would you expect to see lower value for fatter engineers in a pure meritocracy? If lower IQ correlates with obesity ("a 10‐point decrease in IQ was associated with a 1.10‐fold increase in the odds for obesity."[2]) either way - a lower IQ person is more likely to get fat, or the metabolic changes of getting fat negatively affect cognition as well - over a large group of skilled people would you expect thinner people to earn more? If height and IQ are correlated ("Taller people tend to be smarter. Although the relationship is modest, height and IQ are consistently correlated at ∼.10–.20"[3]), would, etc. [1] https://www.mdedge.com/neurology/article/193699/alzheimers-cognition/aerobic-exercise-may-mitigate-age-related-cognitive?sso=true https://www.mdedge.com/neurology/article/193699/alzheimers-c... [2] https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/lim2.11 https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/lim2.11 [3] https://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1003451 https://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/jo...
- ilaksh 6y agoMaybe revisit that comment in your mid 40s or 50s. Up until around age 35 or so, I was generally very lean and did not get noticably fat regardless of my lifestyle. I know I haven't gotten any stupider. Hormonal changes are the most likely difference for me.
- jodrellblank 6y agoWhat difference does it make whether I am in the described groups or not? You can argue that IQ doesn't exist, or shouldn't affect engineer value, or that the correlations don't exist, but telling the author "you won't like it when it happens to you, so agree it doesn't exist" is weird. > "Up until around age 35 or so, I was generally very lean and did not get noticably fat regardless of my lifestyle." It's tempting to read this as saying "I didn't choose it to happen, so I'm excused from any negative effects", although that would be taking a negative view on it. But if not that, what else is this sentence here for? Maybe you're saying that there's more to fat than lifestyle - then skim read "Ten Putative Contributors to the Obesity Epidemic"[1] (PDF or online PDF) where they discuss things like viral infections, environmental triggers, socieo-economic contributers, and other things which aren't diet or exercise related. Does any of that change whether obesity does or doesn't correlate with IQ? Or maybe you're saying you got fat despite exercising - which only says exercise didn't save you, it doesn't need to change whether IQ and obesity are correlated or not. Plus exercise was suggested as a counter to age related decline, not as a counter to fat, only as a thing people might think when seeing fat. > "I know I haven't gotten any stupider." Who ever thinks they have? Would you honestly know? You ought to have lost some abilities just going from age 35 to 55 alone. See[2]: "Age and individual productivity: a literature survey" - "The ability levels of employed white men and women up to the age of 65, using data from the General Aptitude Test Battery collected in the U.S. from 1970-1984, is shown in Figure 2. These findings suggest a relatively sharp decline in most abilities, after maximum values are reached in the 20s and early 30s (Avolio and Waldman 1994). The decline of mental abilities from early adulthood is a universal phenomenon. The age-induced changes in cognitive abilities are similar across countries and within population subgroups, such as between men and women (Park et al. 1999, Maitland et al. 2000). Further individuals with high and low ability levels are subject to the same age-induced changes in cognitive functioning (Deary et al. 2000). Even among non-human species, ranging from fruit flies to primates, age-reductions in memory and learning capabilities have been observed (Minois and Bourg 1997, Bunk 2000)." [1] https://www.researchgate.net/publication/40447388_Ten_Putative_Contributors_to_the_Obesity_Epidemic https://www.researchgate.net/publication/40447388_Ten_Putati... [2] https://www.demogr.mpg.de/papers/working/wp-2003-028.pdf https://www.demogr.mpg.de/papers/working/wp-2003-028.pdf
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- u678u 6y agoI'd agree if its most other jobs but I thought devs were one job where appearance doesn't matter as much?
- mdeck_ 6y agothatsthejoke.png
- tenarchits 6y agoHere’s a hot take on that front: “ The well-known association between height and earnings is often thought to reflect factors such as self esteem, social dominance, and discrimination. We offer a simpler explanation: height is positively associated with cognitive ability, which is rewarded in the labor market.” https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2709415/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2709415/
- centimeter 6y agoI think it's definitely true that attractiveness indicators correlate with characteristics like intelligence. If you think about it, this shouldn't actually be that surprising; it would be silly if the factors that went into sexual selection had no correlation with survival-boosting traits.
- wutbrodo 6y agoHm, perhaps I'm reasoning about this correctly, but wouldn't you think the opposite? Being attractive provides evolutionary slack that requires less optimization on other characteristics (like intelligence), and vice versa.
- dsr_ 6y agoBeing judged attractive is a cultural thing that varies with time and place. Being judged intelligent is also a cultural thing that varies with time and place. Unless your culture is static for 20+ generations, don't expect much influence of it on evolution.
- centimeter 6y agoThere are attractiveness signifiers that are not culturally mediated (e.g. clear healthy skin is valued everywhere, extreme obesity or thinness is very rarely valued, being very short is very rarely valued, etc.) Intelligence also seems to have plenty of culture-independent aspects.
- 6y ago